THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Brainfreeze]

Yes but if the Holy Spirit does not guide one to do those things, then I would question if that person really has the Holy Spirit to begin with. For I do not believe the Holy Spirit would direct a person to do contrary to what the Lord preached and taught. I believe the Holy Spirit helps us to get stronger in the areas we are told to do and walk in that we are weak at doing. If one does not believe the Holy Spirit would guide a person on helping them to keep the commandments of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ then I would question if they really have the Holy Spirit.
So one can not cancel out repentance, baptism, confession, and helping others in need as the Holy Spirit would guide us to walk in these and do them. If not then it would have been a waist of time for our Lord to command them, and I do not believe He gave those commands for nothing. Just to be overrode by a false understanding of a Paul doctrine, as in Paul taught more understanding then our Lord Jesus did. Not possible, not biblical as Paul himself said he could not preach a different gospel message and Jesus then what was already given.

Why we are called to test and try the Spirit...all what you stated is necessary confession, repentance, and then baptism " whenever " the day comes for water.. It testifies to others what's happened inside, I'm not preaching a different message.. Same message .. A little bit simplified ..

 

[Mitspa]

lets say a believer is tempted to steal? Now we know that's wrong by the law...but until you love the person enough to give your not fulfilling what the law demanded...because the law is spiritual its not in a written commandment ...its in the power and ability of the Spirit...that we find this love

 

[kennethcadwell]

Your not seeing the difference between the "letter" and the "Spirit" the Spirit is the law...its not pointing us to a list of rules...it is Gods divine nature and gives us God love which is THE ONLY way to keep what we see in the law of Moses....You cant keep the law by looking to the written rules...you have to keep it by walking in faith and that working by love....NOTHING PROFITS BUT FAITH WORKING BY LOVE!

Yes I do see the difference in the letter and the Spirit as I have always said that we would walk in God's moral laws as an everyday way of life and not a set of ordinances when we walk in the Spirit. Which I do by the Holy Spirit guiding me, and walking in love to keep His commandments. That was the reason our Lord sent us the Holy Spirit, and that is to help us walk in His way. If somebody says they don't need to repent of their sins, be baptized, confess Him before others, forgive others of their sins, and help others in need than they are not walking in the Spirit.

 

[Brainfreeze]

It gets confusing... The Spiritual and physical is difficult to a degree, and now I see why some fast.. Even when we eat, we are thinking about the flesh, what WE want, then you add law and what's right in so fourth.. We can get spun in a few different directions .. We are called to be servants, Spiritual servants of Christ, the law is a teacher who aren't in the Spirit yet and we get there through grace of God by confessing and yes Kenneth repenting " turning away " of sin and our dead self..

 

[Mitspa]

Look walking in the Spirit of God is a complete change of mindset from don't do this and don't do that ..to God will do this and God will do that through me.... so we not looking at "thou shalt not" we are hearing God say "I will" I will do it through you.


Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Why we are called to test and try the Spirit...all what you stated is necessary confession, repentance, and then baptism " whenever " the day comes for water.. It testifies to others what's happened inside, I'm not preaching a different message.. Same message .. A little bit simplified ..

Yes, but see what you said there that I highlighted.
Some on here and others I have come to and shared the word, are trying to say that none of that is necessary in one's spiritual walk. Yet they are all clearly commanded by the Lord, and the Holy Spirit would not guide or help a believer to walk contrary to the word of the Lord. That is the point I was trying to make, not that you personally was preaching a different message. Just that if anybody thinks they don't have to do any of that, I would question if they really have the Holy Spirit in them or if it is a deceiving spirit leading them astray.
For as I have said in the past, that Paul himself said that if he, another apostle, or even a so-called angel of God come to you and preach differently then what was already given from the Lord. Then it is not from God.

 

[kennethcadwell]

That's part of the truth...so your saying the law cannot judge a believer as guilty? I agree with that.

That's right it is only part, because as a believer if you let sin keep control of you or go back to letting sin reign in your body then you are headed for the lake of fire instead of eternal life. Because you have chosen to let that sin or sins be your master.

 

[Mitspa]

Yes I do see the difference in the letter and the Spirit as I have always said that we would walk in God's moral laws as an everyday way of life and not a set of ordinances when we walk in the Spirit. Which I do by the Holy Spirit guiding me, and walking in love to keep His commandments. That was the reason our Lord sent us the Holy Spirit, and that is to help us walk in His way. If somebody says they don't need to repent of their sins, be baptized, confess Him before others, forgive others of their sins, and help others in need than they are not walking in the Spirit.

I could agree with this post but for the part where you believe God has placed you over the sins of others or to judge them in some way...I don't believe you understand enough about dying to the law and hypocrisy that crucifies to go into the church and Judge Gods people in a righteous way? I would be careful in that attitude and make sure you don't judge the flesh of others by your own flesh.

 

[Mitspa]

I think the more a believer sees Gods Spirit doing good trough them the more they are able to see that the Law is "spiritual"

No one will ever fulfilled the law by looking to the written code...until they just walk in love (as Christ loves us) they cannot understand how the law is the Spirit of God working in us.

 

[newbirth]

Mitspa is correct on this debate.. Problem is not everyone's in the Spirit, all they hear is the law is null and void.. and it is, to those in the Spirit... I don't hear a lot of Spirit preaching here, rather it be threads about water, works, and so on... Hardly ever the Spirit.. That's where the focus should be ... Helping folks get the Holy Ghost,

let me show you this....through the Spirit I do the thing that are contained in the law ...and I am accused of doing works....there is no way to reason with those guys ...how do you konw you are following the spirit???
they who are led by the spirit they are the sons of God....Scripture gives as a guide a list of do and don't...but there are naysayers who keep condemning anyone who don't do the evil and do right....they say it is the flesh...
[h=1]Romans 8:13-14King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]13 [/SUP]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


[h=1]Galatians 5:18-23King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


[h=1]Ephesians 5:8-10King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]8 [/SUP]For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
[SUP]9 [/SUP](For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

 

[Brainfreeze]

Yes, but see what you said there that I highlighted.
Some on here and others I have come to and shared the word, are trying to say that none of that is necessary in one's spiritual walk. Yet they are all clearly commanded by the Lord, and the Holy Spirit would not guide or help a believer to walk contrary to the word of the Lord. That is the point I was trying to make, not that you personally was preaching a different message. Just that if anybody thinks they don't have to do any of that, I would question if they really have the Holy Spirit in them or if it is a deceiving spirit leading them astray.
For as I have said in the past, that Paul himself said that if he, another apostle, or even a so-called angel of God come to you and preach differently then what was already given from the Lord. Then it is not from God.

Yes, I stated that...I hear a lot how people are not under the law, but at the same time posting worldly stuff and mindless chatter, and I think,... Something not right here.. but realize we are not all on the same page just yet, some can walk in the Spirit.... and some can run, another reason for the good grace of God, but anyone preaching no law, should be living by and preaching Spirit as well, some think they are saved murders Kenneth..smh... What can we do ? " shrugs " ... I understand your frustration but there are some here either confused, or have an agenda to confuse, are job is discern and expose..or teach the confuse the right way to get to the Spirt through the Spirit

 

[kennethcadwell]

I could agree with this post but for the part where you believe God has placed you over the sins of others or to judge them in some way...I don't believe you understand enough about dying to the law and hypocrisy that crucifies to go into the church and Judge Gods people in a righteous way? I would be careful in that attitude and make sure you don't judge the flesh of others by your own flesh.

I never said anything about judging others, what I said is that the Lord gave us a clear command that if we do not forgive others of their sins, He will not forgive us of ours. And to get eternal life you have to receive His forgiveness for your sins. I was giving a head's up to those who believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit, and yet are told to do things contrary to what the Lord taught. They need to test that spirit because it can not be from God it it tells them to do things different then what Lord Jesus taught. In 1 John he tells that we are to do exactly that, to test the spirit guiding you because if it is contrary to what Jesus taught it is not from God.

 

[ELECT]

Yes, I stated that...I hear a lot how people are not under the law, but at the same time posting worldly stuff and mindless chatter, and I think,... Something not right here.. but realize we are not all on the same page just yet, some can walk in the Spirit.... and some can run, another reason for the good grace of God, but anyone preaching no law, should be living by and preaching Spirit as well, some think they are saved murders Kenneth..smh... What can we do ? " shrugs " ... I understand your frustration but there are some here either confused, or have an agenda to confuse, are job is discern and expose..

what does not under law means ?

 

[Mitspa]

let me show you this....through the Spirit I do the thing that are contained in the law ...and I am accused of doing works....there is no way to reason with those guys ...how do you konw you are following the spirit???
they who are led by the spirit they are the sons of God....Scripture gives as a guide a list of do and don't...but there are naysayers who keep condemning anyone who don't do the evil and do right....they say it is the flesh...
Romans 8:13-14King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]13 [/SUP]For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.


Galatians 5:18-23King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.


Ephesians 5:8-10King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
[SUP]9 [/SUP](For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

If you really "walked in the Spirit" you would know well, why I am trying to set people free from the "letter"... So you can go on and on...I don't think no one is buying your claims? I know from your doctrine and attitude towards the truth that impossible for you to be spiritual.

 

[ELECT]

If you really "walked in the Spirit" you would know well, why I am trying to set people free from the "letter"... So you can go on and on...I don't think no one is buying your claims? I know from your doctrine and attitude towards the truth that impossible for you to be spiritual.

the word of God set man free not man

 

[kennethcadwell]

Yes, I stated that...I hear a lot how people are not under the law, but at the same time posting worldly stuff and mindless chatter, and I think,... Something not right here.. but realize we are not all on the same page just yet, some can walk in the Spirit.... and some can run, another reason for the good grace of God, but anyone preaching no law, should be living by and preaching Spirit as well, some think they are saved murders Kenneth..smh... What can we do ? " shrugs " ... I understand your frustration but there are some here either confused, or have an agenda to confuse, are job is discern and expose..

Here is the thing though did our Lord Jesus say that all sins will be forgiven of men, except for blasphemy of the Holy Spirit ? We as people have no right to judge others on rather they are saved or not, as only the Lord knows where our hearts truly stand. A murderer can be just as saved if they repented and asked for forgiveness of their sin, as a person who was just a liar all their life then repent and asked for forgiveness.
Then walked the rest of their life in Christ ways with the Holy Spirit helping them to get stronger in areas they are weak.

 

[Mitspa]

I never said anything about judging others, what I said is that the Lord gave us a clear command that if we do not forgive others of their sins, He will not forgive us of ours. And to get eternal life you have to receive His forgiveness for your sins. I was giving a head's up to those who believe they are guided by the Holy Spirit, and yet are told to do things contrary to what the Lord taught. They need to test that spirit because it can not be from God it it tells them to do things different then what Lord Jesus taught. In 1 John he tells that we are to do exactly that, to test the spirit guiding you because if it is contrary to what Jesus taught it is not from God.

First that was before He died on the Cross and paid for all our sins...Now we forgive because we have been forgiven...cant you see the HUGE difference? I dare anyone to sincerely pray and ask God if what Im teaching is the truth.

 

[newbirth]

I think the more a believer sees Gods Spirit doing good trough them the more they are able to see that the Law is "spiritual"

scripture says you have to do the good...you follow the Spirit....and do what the Spirit say...God's Spirit does not make you a puppet....scripture says ...
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[kennethcadwell]

If you really "walked in the Spirit" you would know well, why I am trying to set people free from the "letter"... So you can go on and on...I don't think no one is buying your claims? I know from your doctrine and attitude towards the truth that impossible for you to be spiritual.

But there is a big difference in the letter of the law, as in the written ordinances, and God's moral laws that our written in our heart. And if one knows this then they would know that the 10 commandments contain within them God's moral laws.

 

[Mitspa]

But there is a big difference in the letter of the law, as in the written ordinances, and God's moral laws that our written in our heart. And if one knows this then they would know that the 10 commandments contain within them God's moral laws.

You don't get anything I just tried to help you see... I give up today