Just Curious About Baptism.

[4enlightment]

Many people bicker over this topic. This is not my intention so whatever comes out in the thread after my question, is on you and you alone. I am just learning myself, so be kind. You got to learn too..


I've grown up being taught baptism was a public profession of faith, yes. Sorta like it being an outward showing of what happened on the inside when we invite Jesus into our lives. So on so forth. But I've noticed something weird. My one question is where at in the bible do we come to this conclusion that it is what Christianity teaches baptism to be? Where is baptism said to be just a "symbol"?

Maybe I'm stupid not seeing it??

This is what I think that Baptism is, it is to remove the corruptions that is in our thoughts.

<strong>[video=youtube_share;ObIh9xKpfds]http://youtu.be/ObIh9xKpfds[/video]

 

[newbirth]

Actually your view is in fatal error, because it is not "I" that says this, but GOD! Jesus said ...

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
[5] Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


It is about what does saith Jesus (not me). However, you dont seem to have a problem with scriptures, so long as YOU REWRITE THEM. Here is thus saith DC...

"Except a man be born into this world and then be born of the spirit HE CANNOT enter the KINGDOM OF GOD"


Now compare to thus saith Jesus...
"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."



God bless!

is there another world a man can be born into ???? or is there another way a man can come into the world besides being born.....maybe you can ask DC ...I cannot get anything out of him that makes sense....

 

[newbirth]

Nope the risen Jesus breathed on them the Holy Spirit in the upper room before Pentecost. Pentecost was a filling not a baptism of the Holy Spirit a filling for power to minister or in Peters case to preach the risen Christ to the Jews present.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

your fairy tales do not count in this discussion....people are looking for truth...

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.



[SUP]8 [/SUP]But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.



2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

 

[newbirth]

Water baptism for believers is best demonstrated in Acts 8:34-39. Clear and without controversy.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

you got that right....
he that believes and is baptised shall be saved

 

[kennethcadwell]

The problem is that people have confused the scripture where Jesus is talking to Nicodemus about being born again of water and spirit is that the water part is not natural birth. People get confused just because of the scripture of that born of flesh is flesh and that born of the spirit is spirit. However this is not meaning natural birth and spiritual birth for water and spirit.

We know this by verse 10 in this passage where Jesus tells Nicodemus that he is a teacher of the law and does not know what this means. Cleansing from the OT all the way to the NT has always used the mixture of water and blood for full cleansing.

Exodus 19:10-11 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go unto the people, and sanctify them today and tomorrow, and let them wash their clothes, And be ready against the third day: for the third day the LORD will come down in the sight of all the people upon mount Sinai.




Hebrews 9:18-20
Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.




Exodus 29:4
And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.




1 Corinthians 10:1-2
For I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea


The cloud is representative of the Spirit and the sea is representative of water.
Then Jesus commanded baptism in Matthew 28:19 and Mark 16:16, and the word used here is baptizo which means;

Our LibraryLexiconsNew Testament Greek LexiconNew Testament Greek Lexicon - King James VersionBaptizo
[h=1]Baptizo[/h]

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The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon[TABLE="width: 100%"]
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[TD] Strong's Number: 907[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Original Word[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]baptivzw[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]from a derivative of (911)[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]Baptizo[/TD]
[TD="width: 50%"]1:529,92[/TD]
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[TD="width: 50%"]bap-tid'-zo [/TD]
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[TD="colspan: 2"] Definition[/TD]
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1. to dip repeatedly, to immerse, to submerge (of vessels sunk)
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water, to wash one's self, bathe
3. to overwhelm

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Then we can continue with what Peter has said to confirm that the Lord was talking about water in the previous mentioned verses;

[h=1]Acts 10:47-48[/h]47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Peter shows that the receiving of the Holy Spirit, and the baptism in the name of the Lord that was commanded is two separate events in a believers life, and the usage of water Peter says that no man can forbid it because our Lord commanded it. So if you forbid its usage you forbid His command.

 

[damombomb]

I would read the book of acts on

 

[Butch5]

Many people bicker over this topic. This is not my intention so whatever comes out in the thread after my question, is on you and you alone. I am just learning myself, so be kind. You got to learn too..


I've grown up being taught baptism was a public profession of faith, yes. Sorta like it being an outward showing of what happened on the inside when we invite Jesus into our lives. So on so forth. But I've noticed something weird. My one question is where at in the bible do we come to this conclusion that it is what Christianity teaches baptism to be? Where is baptism said to be just a "symbol"?

Maybe I'm stupid not seeing it??

Hi JesusMyOnly,

I believe that teaching comes from a misunderstanding of what Paul teaches about works. However, it is a wrong teaching. I too was taught that but after years of study I have come to understand the proper meaning of Baptism. Rather than go into a long dissertation here, I'd like to point you to a paper that I have written on "Baptism What Is It's Purpose"

In the paper I give a Scriptural basis for Baptism and I also give quotes from the early Christians showing what the earliest Christians understood about Baptism. If you read it and have any questions please feel free to ask.

 

[oldhermit]

Only if you insist on that being the only meaning. Look up the word "for" in English and see how many definitions there are -- out of which is "because of." The Greek εἰς has even more meanings than does the English word "for": In the NASB, it is translated:

about (1), against (18), among (10), become* (5), before (2), before* (1), benefit (1), bestowed (1), beyond (1), beyond* (2), bring about (1), bring* (1), continually* (1), eliminated* (2), end (2), even (1), ever* (2), forever* (1), forward* (3), leading (2), leads (1), mine* (1), never* (1), next* (1), onto (2), over (1), perpetually* (1), reference (2), regard (3), relation (1), respect (2), result (3), resulted (2), resulting (10), sake (1), so (34), throughout (3), toward (23), until (4), view (3), why* (4).​

The Thayer's definition read: "εἰς, a preposition governing the accusative, and denoting entrance into, or direction and limit: into, to, toward, for, among."

The simple fact is that εἰς is never, any where translated as 'because' by any scholar or panel of scholars of which I am aware. Let me ask you this, IF it can be shown even remotely that εἰς has ever been translated as 'because' in some obscure text, why would Peter choose to use such a word to express backward motion when he had sufficient vocabulary at his disposal to express that very idea. If he had meant "because of" the remission of sin he could have simply written it as ὅτι or even [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]περὶ. Although [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]περὶ is usually translated as [/FONT]about or concerning it is in rare instances translated as 'because' as in Luke 3:19. The word εἰς chosen specifically because of it[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]s[/FONT][/FONT] singularly fixed directional motion. The grammatical structure of this text is so constructed that no attempt at syntactical manipulation can change the meaning of the text although many have tried. Immersion into Jesus Christ then is, according to the grammatical structure of this verse, a transference of a person into the removal of sin.


[FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif][/FONT]

 

[EbalT5]

When you start to read Mark's Gospel, which is the earliest written Gospel according to many experts, the first thing you "see" is John the Baptist baptising people in the Jordan river.
I have always wondered how the idea of Baptizing came into existence?
The Jews have a bathing ritual for physical cleaning but IMO it is not quite the same thing as Baptism where people confessed their sins. [Mark 1:5]
As one reads the Hebrew Sciptures you can't find any Baptism ritual. So how did Baptism originate?
As Christians we accept Baptism as an established ritual but who told the NT people to get Baptised?
Can you understand my question?

 

[oldhermit]

When you start to read Mark's Gospel, which is the earliest written Gospel according to many experts, the first thing you "see" is John the Baptist baptising people in the Jordan river.
I have always wondered how the idea of Baptizing came into existence?
The Jews have a bathing ritual for physical cleaning but IMO it is not quite the same thing as Baptism where people confessed their sins. [Mark 1:5]
As one reads the Hebrew Sciptures you can't find any Baptism ritual. So how did Baptism originate?
As Christians we accept Baptism as an established ritual but who told the NT people to get Baptised?
Can you understand my question?

Well, I suppose you could see the beginning and the source of this in John's account. "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit." Although John ministered to a people who were still bound under the Old Law, John's function was preparatory to the New covenant. Part of John's function was to baptize and he acknowledges God as the source of that act.

 

[newbirth]

When you start to read Mark's Gospel, which is the earliest written Gospel according to many experts, the first thing you "see" is John the Baptist baptising people in the Jordan river.
I have always wondered how the idea of Baptizing came into existence?
The Jews have a bathing ritual for physical cleaning but IMO it is not quite the same thing as Baptism where people confessed their sins. [Mark 1:5]
As one reads the Hebrew Sciptures you can't find any Baptism ritual. So how did Baptism originate?
As Christians we accept Baptism as an established ritual but who told the NT people to get Baptised?
Can you understand my question?

seem as the same question the chief priests and scribes asked Jesus...so I ask you the same question he asked them....the baptism of John was it from God or from man?
[h=1]Mark 11:27-33King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]27 [/SUP]And they come again to Jerusalem: and as he was walking in the temple, there come to him the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders,
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And say unto him, By what authority doest thou these things? and who gave thee this authority to do these things?
[SUP]29 [/SUP]And Jesus answered and said unto them, I will also ask of you one question, and answer me, and I will tell you by what authority I do these things.
[SUP]30 [/SUP]The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men? answer me.
[SUP]31 [/SUP]And they reasoned with themselves, saying, If we shall say, From heaven; he will say, Why then did ye not believe him?
[SUP]32 [/SUP]But if we shall say, Of men; they feared the people: for all men counted John, that he was a prophet indeed.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]And they answered and said unto Jesus, We cannot tell. And Jesus answering saith unto them, Neither do I tell you by what authority I do these things.

 

[EbalT5]

Well, I suppose you could see the beginning and the source of this in John's account. "I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, 'He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit." Although John ministered to a people who were still bound under the Old Law, John's function was preparatory to the New covenant. Part of John's function was to baptize and he acknowledges God as the source of that act.

I see you got that from John's Gospel. Somehow I had missed that.
Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Jeff_56]

and as it is written "who could stand in the way?"(of sinful gentiles being immersed in Yeshua's Name as the Messianic Jews all were).... "who could refuse mikveh mayim" ? (as people do today!?)(why?)(explained elsewhere)

[h=1] Gevurot 10:45-48Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)[/h] [SUP]45 [/SUP]And the Messianic Jews who had come with Kefa were mishpoyel (standing in awe) that also upon the Goyim the matnat HaRuach Hakodesh has been poured out.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]For they were hearing them speaking in leshonot and exalting Hashem. Then Kefa answered,
[SUP]47 [/SUP]"Surely no one can refuse the mikveh mayim for these to be given Moshiach’s tevilah of teshuva who have received the Ruach Hakodesh just as we did, can he?" [Ac 2:4; cf Lk 3:16; Ac 11:16]
[SUP]48 [/SUP]And Kefa directed for them to be given Moshiach’s tevilah of teshuva in the Shem of Moshiach Yehoshua (Yeshua). Then they asked him to remain some yamim.

Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB) Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International






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Acts 10:45-48Amplified Bible (AMP)

45 And the believers from among the circumcised [the Jews] who came with Peter were surprised and amazed, because the free gift of the Holy Spirit had been bestowed and poured out largely even on the Gentiles.

46 For they heard them talking in [unknown] tongues (languages) and extolling and magnifying God. Then Peter asked,

47 Can anyone forbid or refuse water for baptizing these people, seeing that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?

48 And he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ (the Messiah). Then they begged him to stay on there for some days.
Amplified Bible (AMP)

Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation
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Acts 10:45-48Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

45 All the believers from the Circumcision faction who had accompanied Kefa were amazed that the gift of the Ruach HaKodesh was also being poured out 46 on the Goyim, for they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Kefa’s response was, 47 “Is anyone prepared to prohibit these people from being immersed in water? After all, they have received the Ruach HaKodesh, just as we did.” 48 And he ordered that they be immersed in the name of Yeshua the Messiah. Then they asked Kefa to stay on with them for a few days.
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