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The_highwayman
Guest
This is not at all what Jesus is saying here. He was saying that you must become the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus[ 2 Cor 5.21] through your faith and given to you by God's grace. This gift of righteousness given to you at conversion exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and pharisee's, because their righteousness was nothing but self-righteousness and doing what they thought was right and doing what God told them to do under the Law. This self-righteousness is dirty rags and cannot compare to what Jesus did on the cross.
You are still espousing the gospel of works and that is false gospel.
JESUS + NOTHING YOU DO EXCEPT FOR EXERCISE YOUR FAITH= EVERYTHING GOD HAS PROMISED YOU.
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The_highwayman
Guest
Your still in major error, it is never YOUR righteousness, because YOUR righteousness is as filthy rags.
2 Cor 5.21 says:[SUP]21 [/SUP]For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
You were made righteous at conversion and it is position and not day to day personal performance. When you add anything to the finished work Christ Jesus did on the cross, you are acting in self-righteousness and not standing in the position of righteousness.
One will never understand the position of righteousness, until they understand Grace.
By the act of grace from God it is possible for any sinner to be imputed righteousness by faith through Christ in that sinner. Then, by studying the word of God and acting upon it our mind conforms to that of Christ's mind, more and more gaining conscious righteousness thinking instead of sin consciousness. If in fact one is born again, has Christ in them, then one has the power of God to reject sin. That is being moved from slavery to sin to liberty in Christ by the Holy Spirit, not by our self righteous works. If however one has no power to reject sin, then one has not Christ in them.
That's why it's hazardous to judge someone, for instance, that might claim to be saved that has a drug abuse problem that leads to other terrible problems, telling him he is sinning his eternal life away. He might well be an unfinished work of Christ in progress. When I see such a person still showing any sign of faith in Jesus, then Jesus has the ball in His court. If that person finishes out life as a slave to sin, then he will know he never really submitted to the Lordship of Christ.
Instead of teaching sinners to stop sinning, I teach them to think newly, think about being freed to enjoy Christ in them, to speak about Christ in them, to cherish all the word of God, to only fear God in the sense of having the highest honor, respect, admiration and love for the Lord. Those that stick with that begin dropping off sins because they are spending more life resource on exercising the power of God to overcome sin. That way works testify to the imputed righteousness they couldn't have earned in this life.
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The_highwayman
Guest
This what we do in our Prison Ministry. We teach and preach righteousness and by understanding the position of righteousness and understanding grace, they all become more holy on accident than they ever will on purpose.
We are beginning year 2 this January on this path. This year we begin talking to our sheep about the divine nature and how sin is a nature to the lost and then becomes a CHOICE to the believer.
We will spend the next 4 months hammering away at them with 2 Peter 1.1-11
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Kerry
Guest
You will get a better response by preaching the Gospel, trust me I know. I don't know everything, but from Preaching in prisons and rehab centers. The gospel brings the best response. Okay what is the gospel, do you know?
No, believing you can abide in the type of unrepentant sins that Paul warns us about with the thinking you are still saved is not Biblical.
First, all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire would also include believers. All means all. So believers are not exempt in lying. You can't lie and refuse to repent of such a sin and expect to be in God's good graces. For Jesus said you will know a false prophet (i.e. false believer) by their fruits. For a good tree will not bring forth bad fruit and vise versa. 1 John 1:6 says if we say we have fellowship with Him and walk in darkness, we lie and do not the truth; And 1 John 1:7 says, But if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanses us from all sin.
Second, many times the references to the Law was to the Law of Moses and not to the Commands in the New Testament. Granted, we are not justified by works because we have God's grace to fall back upon. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9). For if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1). So you get cleansed thru repenting of your sins. No repentance = No salvation.
In addition, as for your reference about "cook" in relation to Hell: Well, no one is going to "cook" as you so eloquently put it. The wicked (Including false believers who think they can abide in unrepentant sin and still be saved) will be destroyed both body and soul in the Lake of Fire. For Jesus said, fear not him who can destroy the body, but fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Hell (i.e. Gehenna, - the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28). For the last enemy to be destroyed is death. Which means there are other enemies of God that will be destroyed, such as the wicked (or those who are of the devil's kingdom).
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The_highwayman
Guest
Let me guess.....Jesus and him Crucified.
Kerry, As much as you try to hide it, you are a Jimmy Swaggert Jesus Christ and him Crucified follower. Leaving Jesus on the Cross as Swaggert does is a false Gospel, because he leaves him there. The cross as Swaggert has taught you is not the saving grace. Swaggert has turned the Cross into an idol and even has been know to state that the resurrection is powerless, because its all about the cross. You love hiding it, but you quote the same things him and his people all quote.
you and swaggert negagte the true gospel because that gospel continues to remind peole of their sin-consicousness and not teach them the true gospel, they have regianed right standing with God through what Jesus did on the corss and by being raised to Life. You and Swaggert cry and snort it was finished at the cross, bit it really ahd just began. Jesus was finally finished when he rose again and entered into Heaven's holy of Holy's and placed his own blood on the emrcy seat adn then sat down at the right hand of the Father. Leaving jesus on teh Cross and him Crucified keeps people in bondage because they ahve no udnerstadning of righteousness, because keeping Jesus on the cross keeps him dead and helps swaggert and his boys in LA keep their thumb on folks and constantly remind them of their sin-consciousness, because Swaggert himself, nhas to appease his own soul for his own sins and has failed to ever receive the true gospel, that he was made righteous at conversion. Keeping Jesus on the cross also tells people God is still dealing with the SIN proble,m and my dear frienfd, he dear son dealt with that over 2,000 yearrs ago and keeping him on the cross and crucifying him is just hitting the rock. Swaggert adn you will never come to full age because you again adn again lay down the foudnations of the basic doctrines. You should be teaching others, but can't because you drink milk and cannot stomach strong meat. Swaggert and anyone who teaches Jesus and him Crucified is exactly waht the author of Heb 5.11-14-Heb 6.1-4, was talking about.
The Gospel is when you confess the Lord Jesus and that God has raised him from the dead and that you believe you are made righteous by God's grace through your faith by what Jesus did on the cross and that was that Jesus became sin, so that you might be made the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.
I cannot speak for others, but in our ministry, priority 1 is getting them saved, and then teaching them righteousness, because understanding your position with the Father through Jesus is key to destroying the strongholds of condemnation, doubt, fear, rejection and many of the deeper aspects the enemy lies to them about. We then move on to actual renewal of the mind and letting the spirit man gain ascendancy.
You only preach the gospel to babes or those who are lost, but as Heb 6 states you move on to perfection, becausethese men and women need it when they get out.
2/3 oif the New testament is not a reminder that you are a lowly perpetual sinner saved by grace. It states quie the oppostte adn anyone who continues in elementary principals is not bearing fruit.
Your fruit is not for you, its for others and to eat off of you and then for them to bear and give forth to the world.
I know this will be met with resistance adn tis fine...take him off the Cross Kerry, the HOly Spirit did over 2,000 years ago.
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AtonedFor
Guest
Absolutely ... and it's a terrible shame that most BACs in Christian forums do not agree with this.
The sin of habitual unrepentant lying is one of the best examples in Scripture of this.
Because of their history of oppression (500 years of Islam, then 60 years of Communism),
Orthodox Bulgarians developed quite a powerful affinity for lying and deceiving.
However, Bulgarian Christians must overcome this "traditional sin"
as they walk down the narrow path of sanctification unto holiness.
In 2007, I preached a sermon to 500 of them about the sin of lying.
Lots of proof text passages to choose from.
Yeah, while I do not believe in works based salvation, I think Antinomianism is a teaching that is from the pits of Hell. Anyone who believes they can do evil and remain in God's good graces does not know what it means to be a Christian and or to know God. There is no tolerance for willful rebellion against God. Yes, God's grace is there for us if we fall. But we are not to stay down on the ground in the mud and be in a continual fallen state. We are to get up and get cleansed thru Jesus and we are to walk with Him uprightly. For how can two walk together unless they be agreed? (Amos 3:3).
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AtonedFor
Guest
Yes, and this agrees nicely with the 10 Scripture passages which warn that
one MUST endure with his/her faith until death to be welcomed into Heaven.
E.G. one must not succumb to Christian persecution and disown his/her faith.
And those who place their faith in being raptured out of here,
are in danger of falling away from their faith due to a great disappointment.
And one must not take the mark of the beast, or he/she will not make Heaven.
Everyone talks about Jesus being SO faithful !!!
Yes, He is (and will be) faithful to uphold His part of the new covenant.
But, are we faithful to uphold our end of it?
Dah, followed quickly by another Dah.
Let it be met with resistance. I stand with you in Truth and solidarity.
Keeping Jesus on the Cross keeps people down; like throwing an anchor to someone who is drowning.
Jesus is at the right hand of the Father in Glory and Power and it is our joyful privilege to give thanks and REJOICE! And through our joy other people will come to know the Gospel and celebrate with hope, faith and new found love.
How are you saved right now at this very second? Is it because of a lot of works? Or is it because of the grace of Jesus Christ? Or is it Jesus + your efforts?
Oh, and please do not downplay Jesus's faithfulness. For the Scriptures say,
Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
2 Thessalonians 3:3 But the Lord is faithful. He will establish you and guard you against the evil one.
Hebrews 13:5 for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
As for the Rapture:
Does not the believer enter into Marriage in the Parable of the Virgins in Matthew 25? And does not Luke 12:36 talk about the Lord's return from the Wedding to let those in who knock afterwards? Do you know that the Marriage Supper of the Lamb means symbolically?
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AtonedFor
Guest
IMO, one can move in and out of God's saving grace
... depending on how sincere one's repentance is.
E.G. One is NOT on Jesus' narrow path, IF one is involved in habitual unrepented-of sin.
Such a person is NOT "in Christ" whilst doing this.
One may certainly have assurance of salvation, IF one is living according to God's desires.
The whole entire Bible reveals that we are saved by co-operating with God's desires!
As James says, "faith without works is dead".
This just means ... one's works must prove that one's faith is genuine!
And this just goes along with ... one must be practicing righteousness to be sons of God.
We have all seen all of those verses, haven't we?
However, God knows those who are actually His.
His predestined elect ones LIVE according to His desires!
(He saw all of this before the foundation of the world.)
And His desires are littered all throughout His new covenant (the NT).
Satan and ignorant man are bed-fellows fighting against God's desires,
Satan and deceived man are bed-fellows fighting against God's desires.
Satan and rebellious man are bed-fellows fighting against God's desires.
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There is no conflict, the bible teaches one must do righteousness to be saved. The conflict occurs between the bible and the man-made faith only theology. Righteousness means right doing, and when one does what God said to do then he is right doing/righteous. God will not make righteous those that do not do what He said. Nor does Christ just randomly or for some unknown reason make people righteous.
Faith only contradicts all the verses that says man must do righteousness to be saved, as Mt 5:20.
2 Cor 5:21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"
How does one get "in Him"? By right doing, not by doing nothing.
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2 Cor 5:21 "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."
One must CONDITIONALLY be "IN HIM" to be made the righteousness of God. How does one get "in Him"? By right doing.
No one can ever be "in Him" by doing nothing/no works/unrighteousness.
One cannot do his OWN righteousness (as the Pharisees) to enter the kingdom but must do GOD'S righteousness, Rom 10:3.
Mt 5:20 "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."
How can I be in "major error" when I only repeated what Christ Himself said. Why would Christ say "your righteousness" if it is nothing but filthy rags?
In the context, Mt 5:21ff into Matt chapter 6, Jesus gives them what righteousness of the kingdom is that they are to do, contrasting it to the OT law. Jesus tells them "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you." Mt 6:33. One must seek and do God's righteousness.
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The_highwayman
Guest
How do you reconcile those verses with 2 Cor 5.21-For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
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The_highwayman
Guest
reread it
2 Cor 5.21 there is no conditional, God made Jesus Christ SIN and you righteous, PERIOD.
Hoe do you do GOd's righteousness? You exercise your faith!
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.