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Tardly...
Jesus is God on the merits of established rules of Greek grammar, independent of your worldview.
Period.
There is absolutely nothing you can do to change this fact.
Stop being a hypocrite and using scripture for your position, while, at the very same time, you claim that it is corrupt.
Jesus is God on the merits of established rules of Greek grammar, independent of your worldview.
Period.
There is absolutely nothing you can do to change this fact.
Stop being a hypocrite and using scripture for your position, while, at the very same time, you claim that it is corrupt.
The real question is what was the mission of the Messiah?
Many believe it was to die for your sins.
I disagree.
I see the Scriptures as saying the Messiah would establish God's kingdom here on earth.
That is the real Gospel.
C
ChristIsGod
Guest
Have you ever read Isaiah 53, Ebal? I won't post the whole chpt - but when you get a chance, please read it through because it will speak to what you've written here in this quote.
Isaiah 9:6 "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father The Prince of Peace." The terms child and son refer to the Incarnation or manifestation of "The mighty God" and "The everlasting Father."
Isaiah prophesied that the Messiah would be called Immanuel, that is, God with us [Isaiah 7:14 Matthew 1:22-23].
Isaiah 35:4-6 "Behold, your God he will come and save you." This passage goes on to say that when God comes the eyes of the blind would be opened, the ears of the deaf would be unstopped, the lame would leap, and the tongue of the dumb would speak. Jesus applied this passage of Scripture to Himself (Luke 7:22) and, of course, His ministry did produce all of these things.
Isaiah 40:3 "Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God." John the Baptist fulfilled this prophecy when he prepared the way for Jesus (Matthew 3:3); so Jesus is the LORD and our God.
Micah 5:2 proves that the Messiah is God. "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel, whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
Who's The Creator, from these verses Ebal?
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God{'ĕlôhîym/plural} created the heaven and the earth.
Joh 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Isa 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.
Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him {God created 'for' Himself - by Himself.}
Mal 2:10 Have we not all one father? hath not one God created us?
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ
Isa 45:18 For thus saith the LORD that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.
I don't know how much it will take to convince you that Christ Jesus was the same yesterday, today and forever equal with and was and is GOD.
I'll keep posting verses for you, if you need more - it's my pleasure.
C
ChristIsGod
Guest
C
ChristIsGod
Guest
Here's a heavy hitter, Ebal. Sorry, it's all KJV ~
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I Am (he,-not in the Greek) ye shall die in your sins.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Not forcing Scripture at all, Ebal ... there's plenty to prove Who He Is and the necessity of believing Who He Is.
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I Am (he,-not in the Greek) ye shall die in your sins.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Not forcing Scripture at all, Ebal ... there's plenty to prove Who He Is and the necessity of believing Who He Is.
Dear ChristisGod,
I am familiar with the Scriptures you mentioned.
But they are not about Jesus.
Lets look at Isaiah 53....If even one verse doesn't fit then it can't be about Jesus ....can it?
Isaiah 53:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
“he shall see his seed”
Seed.. Strong’s #2233 Zehrag in Hebrew
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, gives agricultural definitions for the Hebrew word for “seed” and the definition, semen virile, offspring.
In the Septuagint Greek translation “seed” is translated with the Greek word “sperma” which indicates a clear meaning for seed in this verse.
Since Jesus never married according to Christian Tradition, this “seed” cannot apply to Jesus.
In instances in the Bible where “spiritual children “ are mentioned the Hebrew word “behn” Strongs # 1121 is used in contrast to the word “zehrag” which clearly refers to offspring of a sexual union.
For Example..
Deuteronomy 14:1 King James Version (KJV)
14 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
I am familiar with the Scriptures you mentioned.
But they are not about Jesus.
Lets look at Isaiah 53....If even one verse doesn't fit then it can't be about Jesus ....can it?
Isaiah 53:10
King James Version (KJV)
10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.
“he shall see his seed”
Seed.. Strong’s #2233 Zehrag in Hebrew
Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon, gives agricultural definitions for the Hebrew word for “seed” and the definition, semen virile, offspring.
In the Septuagint Greek translation “seed” is translated with the Greek word “sperma” which indicates a clear meaning for seed in this verse.
Since Jesus never married according to Christian Tradition, this “seed” cannot apply to Jesus.
In instances in the Bible where “spiritual children “ are mentioned the Hebrew word “behn” Strongs # 1121 is used in contrast to the word “zehrag” which clearly refers to offspring of a sexual union.
For Example..
Deuteronomy 14:1 King James Version (KJV)
14 Ye are the children of the Lord your God: ye shall not cut yourselves, nor make any baldness between your eyes for the dead.
I am...ego eimi ....is sometimes translated as "I am he" or "I am the one"
John 9:9 (New American Standard Bible)
Others were saying, "This is he," still others were saying, "No, but he is like him." He kept saying, "I am the one." [ego eimi] [The man born blind from birth]
So what would John 8:58 look like if "ego eimi" were translated as "I am the one." just as it is at John 9:9?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am the one.
Then Jesus might be saying that he was the Messiah who God chose to create even before Jesus was born, and in fact even before Abraham was born.
John 4:25-26 (New American Standard Bible)
25The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming (He who is called Christ); when that One comes, He will declare all things to us."
26Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He." [am He is ego eimi]
So Jesus is using ego eimi to declare his Messiahship in John 4:26 just as he is in John 8:58
Messianic Expectations
The Bible tells us what to expect when the Messiah comes.........
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
Did Jesus do this? NO!
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Did Jesus do this? NO!
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Has Jesus made this happen? NO!
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Has Jesus gathered the Twelve tribes of Israel? NO!
And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
Is Jesus sitting on the throne in the tabernacle of David? NO!
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:
Is Jesus a King executing justice in the earth? Are Judah and Israel dwelling in safety? NO!
I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour.
Has iniquity been removed? Is every man a neighbor? NO!
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Did Jesus build the Temple and sit upon his throne? NO!
But the humble will inherit the land
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
For the arms of the wicked will be broken,
But the Lord sustains the righteous.
The Lord knows the days of the blameless,
And their inheritance will be forever.
They will not be ashamed in the time of evil,
And in the days of famine they will have abundance.
But the wicked will perish;
And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures,
They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.
Has this happened? NO!
“Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’”
Has this happened? NO!
And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Has this happened? NO!
They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Has this happened? NO!
The interesing thing about this list is that when the Messiah fulfills these promises everyone will know.
The Bible tells us what to expect when the Messiah comes.........
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever.
Did Jesus do this? NO!
But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Did Jesus do this? NO!
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
Has Jesus made this happen? NO!
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Has Jesus gathered the Twelve tribes of Israel? NO!
And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
Is Jesus sitting on the throne in the tabernacle of David? NO!
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely:
Is Jesus a King executing justice in the earth? Are Judah and Israel dwelling in safety? NO!
I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour.
Has iniquity been removed? Is every man a neighbor? NO!
Even he shall build the temple of the LORD; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both.
Did Jesus build the Temple and sit upon his throne? NO!
But the humble will inherit the land
And will delight themselves in abundant prosperity.
For the arms of the wicked will be broken,
But the Lord sustains the righteous.
The Lord knows the days of the blameless,
And their inheritance will be forever.
They will not be ashamed in the time of evil,
And in the days of famine they will have abundance.
But the wicked will perish;
And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures,
They vanish—like smoke they vanish away.
Has this happened? NO!
“Behold, I will open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves, My people; and I will bring you into the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves and caused you to come up out of your graves, My people. I will put My Spirit within you and you will come to life, and I will place you on your own land. Then you will know that I, the Lord, have spoken and done it,” declares the Lord.’”
Has this happened? NO!
And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
Has this happened? NO!
They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them,” declares the Lord, “for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”
Has this happened? NO!
The interesing thing about this list is that when the Messiah fulfills these promises everyone will know.
C
ChristIsGod
Guest
Here are other examples of where that word for 'seed' is used and it can be agricultural as well and as the seed of Abraham or the sons of God [Jesus speaking in the chpt] that we read of in Rev 21:7 and also the BDB definitions as well -added to yours ...
H2233
זרע
zera‛
Total KJV Occurrences: 230
seed, 221
Gen_1:10-12 (5), Gen_1:29 (2), Gen_3:15 (2), Gen_4:25, Gen_7:3, Gen_9:9, Gen_12:7, Gen_13:15-16 (3), Gen_15:3, Gen_15:5, Gen_15:13, Gen_15:18, Gen_16:10, Gen_17:7-10 (5), Gen_17:12, Gen_17:19, Gen_19:32, Gen_19:34, Gen_21:12-13 (2), Gen_22:17-18 (3), Gen_24:7, Gen_24:60, Gen_26:3-4 (4), Gen_26:24, Gen_28:4, Gen_28:13-14 (3), Gen_35:12 (2), Gen_38:8-9 (3), Gen_46:6-7 (2), Gen_47:19, Gen_47:23-24 (2), Gen_48:4, Gen_48:11, Gen_48:19, Exo_16:31, Exo_28:43, Exo_30:21, Exo_32:13 (2), Exo_33:1, Lev_11:37-38 (2), Lev_12:2, Lev_15:16-18 (3), Lev_15:32, Lev_18:21, Lev_20:2-4 (3), Lev_21:15, Lev_21:17, Lev_21:21, Lev_22:3-4 (3), Lev_27:16 (3), Lev_27:30, Num_5:28, Num_11:7, Num_14:24, Num_16:40, Num_18:19, Num_20:5, Num_24:7, Num_25:13, Deu_1:8, Deu_4:37, Deu_10:15, Deu_11:9-10 (2), Deu_14:22, Deu_22:9, Deu_28:38, Deu_28:46, Deu_28:59, Deu_30:6, Deu_30:19, Deu_31:21, Deu_34:4, Jos_24:3, Rth_4:12, 1Sa_2:20, 1Sa_8:15, 1Sa_20:42 (2), 1Sa_24:21, 2Sa_4:8, 2Sa_7:12, 2Sa_22:51, 1Ki_2:33 (2), 1Ki_11:14, 1Ki_11:39, 1Ki_18:32, 2Ki_5:27, 2Ki_11:1, 2Ki_17:20, 2Ki_25:25, 1Ch_16:13, 1Ch_17:11, 2Ch_20:7, 2Ch_22:10, Ezr_2:59, Ezr_9:2, Neh_7:61, Neh_9:2, Neh_9:8, Est_6:13, Est_9:27-28 (2), Est_9:31, Est_10:3, Job_5:25, Job_21:8, Job_39:12, Psa_18:50, Psa_21:10, Psa_22:23 (2), Psa_22:30, Psa_25:13, Psa_37:25-26 (2), Psa_37:28, Psa_69:36, Psa_89:4, Psa_89:29, Psa_89:36, Psa_102:28, Psa_105:6, Psa_106:27, Psa_112:2, Psa_126:6, Pro_11:21, Ecc_11:6, Isa_1:4, Isa_5:10, Isa_6:13, Isa_14:20, Isa_17:11, Isa_23:3, Isa_30:23, Isa_41:8, Isa_43:5, Isa_44:3, Isa_45:19, Isa_45:25, Isa_48:19, Isa_53:10, Isa_54:3, Isa_55:10, Isa_57:3-4 (2), Isa_59:21 (2), Isa_65:9 (3), Isa_65:23, Isa_66:22, Jer_2:21, Jer_7:15, Jer_22:28, Jer_22:30, Jer_23:8, Jer_29:32, Jer_30:10, Jer_31:27 (2), Jer_31:36-37 (2), Jer_33:22, Jer_33:26 (3), Jer_35:7, Jer_35:9, Jer_36:31, Jer_41:1, Jer_46:27, Jer_49:10, Eze_17:5, Eze_17:13, Eze_20:5, Eze_43:19, Eze_44:22, Dan_1:3, Dan_9:1, Amo_9:13, Hag_2:19, Zec_8:12, Mal_2:15
carnally, 3
Lev_19:20 (2), Num_5:13
child, 2
Lev_22:13 (2), 1Sa_1:11
fruitful, 1
Eze_17:5
seed’s, 1
Isa_59:21
seedtime, 1
Gen_8:21-22 (2)
sowing, 1
Lev_26:5
H2233
זרע
zera‛
BDB Definition:
1) seed, sowing, offspring
1a) a sowing
1b) seed
1c) semen virile
1d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
1e) of moral quality
1e1) a practitioner of righteousness (figuratively)
1f) sowing time (by metonymy)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H2232
H2232
זרע
zâra‛
BDB Definition:
1) to sow, scatter seed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to sow
1a2) producing, yielding seed
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be sown
1b2) to become pregnant, be made pregnant
1c) (Pual) to be sown
1d) (Hiphil) to produce seed, yield seed
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
H2233
זרע
zera‛
Total KJV Occurrences: 230
seed, 221
Gen_1:10-12 (5), Gen_1:29 (2), Gen_3:15 (2), Gen_4:25, Gen_7:3, Gen_9:9, Gen_12:7, Gen_13:15-16 (3), Gen_15:3, Gen_15:5, Gen_15:13, Gen_15:18, Gen_16:10, Gen_17:7-10 (5), Gen_17:12, Gen_17:19, Gen_19:32, Gen_19:34, Gen_21:12-13 (2), Gen_22:17-18 (3), Gen_24:7, Gen_24:60, Gen_26:3-4 (4), Gen_26:24, Gen_28:4, Gen_28:13-14 (3), Gen_35:12 (2), Gen_38:8-9 (3), Gen_46:6-7 (2), Gen_47:19, Gen_47:23-24 (2), Gen_48:4, Gen_48:11, Gen_48:19, Exo_16:31, Exo_28:43, Exo_30:21, Exo_32:13 (2), Exo_33:1, Lev_11:37-38 (2), Lev_12:2, Lev_15:16-18 (3), Lev_15:32, Lev_18:21, Lev_20:2-4 (3), Lev_21:15, Lev_21:17, Lev_21:21, Lev_22:3-4 (3), Lev_27:16 (3), Lev_27:30, Num_5:28, Num_11:7, Num_14:24, Num_16:40, Num_18:19, Num_20:5, Num_24:7, Num_25:13, Deu_1:8, Deu_4:37, Deu_10:15, Deu_11:9-10 (2), Deu_14:22, Deu_22:9, Deu_28:38, Deu_28:46, Deu_28:59, Deu_30:6, Deu_30:19, Deu_31:21, Deu_34:4, Jos_24:3, Rth_4:12, 1Sa_2:20, 1Sa_8:15, 1Sa_20:42 (2), 1Sa_24:21, 2Sa_4:8, 2Sa_7:12, 2Sa_22:51, 1Ki_2:33 (2), 1Ki_11:14, 1Ki_11:39, 1Ki_18:32, 2Ki_5:27, 2Ki_11:1, 2Ki_17:20, 2Ki_25:25, 1Ch_16:13, 1Ch_17:11, 2Ch_20:7, 2Ch_22:10, Ezr_2:59, Ezr_9:2, Neh_7:61, Neh_9:2, Neh_9:8, Est_6:13, Est_9:27-28 (2), Est_9:31, Est_10:3, Job_5:25, Job_21:8, Job_39:12, Psa_18:50, Psa_21:10, Psa_22:23 (2), Psa_22:30, Psa_25:13, Psa_37:25-26 (2), Psa_37:28, Psa_69:36, Psa_89:4, Psa_89:29, Psa_89:36, Psa_102:28, Psa_105:6, Psa_106:27, Psa_112:2, Psa_126:6, Pro_11:21, Ecc_11:6, Isa_1:4, Isa_5:10, Isa_6:13, Isa_14:20, Isa_17:11, Isa_23:3, Isa_30:23, Isa_41:8, Isa_43:5, Isa_44:3, Isa_45:19, Isa_45:25, Isa_48:19, Isa_53:10, Isa_54:3, Isa_55:10, Isa_57:3-4 (2), Isa_59:21 (2), Isa_65:9 (3), Isa_65:23, Isa_66:22, Jer_2:21, Jer_7:15, Jer_22:28, Jer_22:30, Jer_23:8, Jer_29:32, Jer_30:10, Jer_31:27 (2), Jer_31:36-37 (2), Jer_33:22, Jer_33:26 (3), Jer_35:7, Jer_35:9, Jer_36:31, Jer_41:1, Jer_46:27, Jer_49:10, Eze_17:5, Eze_17:13, Eze_20:5, Eze_43:19, Eze_44:22, Dan_1:3, Dan_9:1, Amo_9:13, Hag_2:19, Zec_8:12, Mal_2:15
carnally, 3
Lev_19:20 (2), Num_5:13
child, 2
Lev_22:13 (2), 1Sa_1:11
fruitful, 1
Eze_17:5
seed’s, 1
Isa_59:21
seedtime, 1
Gen_8:21-22 (2)
sowing, 1
Lev_26:5
H2233
זרע
zera‛
BDB Definition:
1) seed, sowing, offspring
1a) a sowing
1b) seed
1c) semen virile
1d) offspring, descendants, posterity, children
1e) of moral quality
1e1) a practitioner of righteousness (figuratively)
1f) sowing time (by metonymy)
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H2232
H2232
זרע
zâra‛
BDB Definition:
1) to sow, scatter seed
1a) (Qal)
1a1) to sow
1a2) producing, yielding seed
1b) (Niphal)
1b1) to be sown
1b2) to become pregnant, be made pregnant
1c) (Pual) to be sown
1d) (Hiphil) to produce seed, yield seed
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: a primitive root
C
ChristIsGod
Guest
Hi Ebal. Well, I can believe you or Greek scholars and men who have passed the test of time ... right?
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am (he,-not in the Greek) they went backward, and fell to the ground.
He called Himself "I AM". In the "present tense".
Why did they all fall to the ground ? Not on their faces, but backwards.
That moment could have given them a space of time to repent, but as Wesley said, "probably the priests among them might persuade themselves and their attendants, that this also was done by Beelzebub; and that it was through the providence of God, not the 'indulgence' of Jesus, that they received no farther damage."
John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am (he,-not in the Greek) ye shall die in your sins.
Joh 8:24 ειπονG3004 V-2AAI-1S ουνG3767 CONJ υμινG4771 P-2DP οτιG3754 CONJ αποθανεισθεG599 V-FDI-2P ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF αμαρτιαιςG266 N-DPF υμωνG4771 P-2GP εανG1437 COND γαρG1063 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N πιστευσητεG4100 V-AAS-2P οτιG3754 CONJ εγωG1473 P-1NS ειμιG1510 V-PAI-1S αποθανεισθεG599 V-FDI-2P ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF αμαρτιαιςG266 N-DPF υμωνG4771 P-2GP
John Wesley on Joh 8:24 - " If ye believe not that I AM - Here (as in Joh_8:58) our Lord claims the Divine name, I AM, Exo_3:14."
Vincent's Word Studies ~ "I am (εγω ειμι) the words are rather the solemn expression of His absolute divine being, as in Joh_8:58 : If ye believe not that I am.
See Deu_32:39; Isa_43:10; and compare Joh_8:28, Joh_8:58 of this chapter, and Joh_13:19."
A.T. Roberson ~ "The phrase egō eimi occurs three times here (Joh_8:24, Joh_8:28, Joh_8:58) and also in Joh_13:19. Jesus seems to claim absolute divine being as in Joh_8:58."
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58
Before Abraham was (prin Abraam genesthai). Usual idiom with prin in positive sentence with infinitive (second aorist middle of ginomai) and the accusative of general reference, “before coming as to Abraham,” “before Abraham came into existence or was born.”
I am (egō eimi). Undoubtedly here Jesus claims eternal existence with the absolute phrase used of God. The contrast between genesthai (entrance into existence of Abraham) and eimi (timeless being) is complete. See the same contrast between en in Joh_1:1 and egeneto in Joh_1:14. See the contrast also in Psa_90:2 between God (ei, art) and the mountains (genēthēnai). See the same use of eimi in Joh_6:20; Joh_9:9; Joh_8:24, Joh_8:28; Joh_18:6.
Matthew Henry ~ Verily, verily, I say unto you; I do not only say it in private to my own disciples, who will be sure to say as I say, but to you my enemies and persecutors; I say it to your faces, take it how you will: Before Abraham was, I am; prin Abraam genesthaî egō eimi, Before Abraham was made or born, I am. The change of the word is observable, and bespeaks Abraham a creature, and himself the Creator; well therefore might he make himself greater than Abraham. Before Abraham he was, First, As God. I am, is the name of God (Exo_3:14); it denotes his self-existence; he does not say, I was, but I am, for he is the first and the last, immutably the same (Rev_1:8); thus he was not only before Abraham, but before all worlds, Joh_1:1; Pro_8:23. Secondly, As Mediator. He was the appointed Messiah, long before Abraham; the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev_13:8), the channel of conveyance of light, life, and love from God to man. This supposes his divine nature, that he is the same in himself from eternity (Heb_13:8)"
R. A. Torrey ~ "I am: That our Lord by this expression asserted his divinity and eternal existence, as the great I AM, appears evident from the use of the present tense, instead of the past tense, from its being in answer to the Jews, who enquired whether he had seen Abraham, and from its being thus understood by the multitude, who were exasperated at it to such a degree that they took up stones to stone him. The ancient Jews not only believed that the Messiah was superior to and Lord of all the patriarchs, and even of angels, but that his celestial nature existed with God from whom it emanated, before the creation, and that the creation was effected by his ministry. Exo_3:14; Isa_43:13, Isa_44:6, Isa_44:8, Isa_46:9, Isa_48:12; Rev_1:8"
C
ChristIsGod
Guest
Re: Messianic Expectations
Well, this [ Link -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52766-trinity-68.html#post1832603 ] was Why I asked you about when His Kingdom would be here. I honestly figured by things that you were saying that this is where your beliefs were and I only wanted to say to this that, what you believe against Him and about Him future tense will set you up to receive the anti-Christ.
The combo of not seeing Him as GOD in the flesh and expecting Him to fulfill all of the future tense prophesies and yet not believe that He's GOD is setting you up to expect just about anyone that fulfills what you've listed as your expectations of "his kingdom" ... when the "his" part is a non-Deity to you. That's scarey, Ebal ... not for me but for your sake.
For today friend, I have to get off of this computer now - but won't you consider at least a previous post -- as the Brother suggested that you do an exegetical study on John 1.
Also, I left a post on the other page -- here's the link to that one -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52766-trinity-67.html#post1828112
It's been a long day. Hope to get back here maybe tomorrow night. Take care.
Well, this [ Link -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52766-trinity-68.html#post1832603 ] was Why I asked you about when His Kingdom would be here. I honestly figured by things that you were saying that this is where your beliefs were and I only wanted to say to this that, what you believe against Him and about Him future tense will set you up to receive the anti-Christ.
The combo of not seeing Him as GOD in the flesh and expecting Him to fulfill all of the future tense prophesies and yet not believe that He's GOD is setting you up to expect just about anyone that fulfills what you've listed as your expectations of "his kingdom" ... when the "his" part is a non-Deity to you. That's scarey, Ebal ... not for me but for your sake.
For today friend, I have to get off of this computer now - but won't you consider at least a previous post -- as the Brother suggested that you do an exegetical study on John 1.
Also, I left a post on the other page -- here's the link to that one -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52766-trinity-67.html#post1828112
It's been a long day. Hope to get back here maybe tomorrow night. Take care.
K
Karraster
Guest
Re: Messianic Expectations
[SUP]Prophecy is not always fulfilled just once, or all at once, is it? The book of Esther, for instance..did you know about the men that were hanged after they were already dead in that book? And so it was again fulfilled after WWII. I can give additional info for any interested in that, just pm me.
But as to these verses, where Messiah read, and proclaimed it was fulfilled at their hearing...did you know which scripture He was reading from? He stopped in the middle, as Isaiah does say more, but the more is yet to come.
Luke 4;16 [/SUP]And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Isaiah 61 King James Version (KJV)
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God;...........
Yes, Messiah/YaHshua/Jesus the Christ..He is the Son of the Living Almighty of Israel!
[SUP]Prophecy is not always fulfilled just once, or all at once, is it? The book of Esther, for instance..did you know about the men that were hanged after they were already dead in that book? And so it was again fulfilled after WWII. I can give additional info for any interested in that, just pm me.
But as to these verses, where Messiah read, and proclaimed it was fulfilled at their hearing...did you know which scripture He was reading from? He stopped in the middle, as Isaiah does say more, but the more is yet to come.
Luke 4;16 [/SUP]And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
[SUP]18 [/SUP]The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
[SUP]19 [/SUP]To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.
Isaiah 61 King James Version (KJV)
61 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
[SUP]2 [/SUP]To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God;...........
Yes, Messiah/YaHshua/Jesus the Christ..He is the Son of the Living Almighty of Israel!
There are many things that need to be understood with regard to Messiah but that which is of first importance is who he is. If we do not get this right it does not matter what else we may get right.
John 14:7-9 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP] If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
That should bring to an end that part of the argument.
John 14:7-9 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
That should bring to an end that part of the argument.
you cannot have a kingdom without subjects...
[h=1]John 10:9-11King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
Important Information on ""I AM""
Has anyone ever checked out
Exodus 3:14 in a Jewish Bible?
The Chabad Translation has "I will be what I will be"
The Stone Chumash has it "I shall be as I shall be."
Rashi rendered it as "I will be what I will be."
The Pentateuch by Hirsch, has it as "I shall be that which I will be."
The Jewish Bibles translate this phrase with a future tense, while Christian Bibles put it in the present tense. [I am]
Were the Christian translators influenced to create a match with John 8:58 ???
After all, Exodus is part of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Jews. It is really their book. Shouldn't their translation take precedence?
At the preceeding verse, Exodus 3:13, Moses says.."""Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"""
The sons of Israel may ask Moses....'""What is His name?"" because they did not know the God who was speaking to Moses.
IMO God's answer in the future tense..."I will be what I will be" is really a promise by God that in the future he will be who he will prove to be. As we know, God brought the plagues on Egypt, and delivered the sons of Israel from slavery. He promised...and he literally proved that he will be what he will be....God Almighty.
Has anyone ever checked out
Exodus 3:14 in a Jewish Bible?
The Chabad Translation has "I will be what I will be"
The Stone Chumash has it "I shall be as I shall be."
Rashi rendered it as "I will be what I will be."
The Pentateuch by Hirsch, has it as "I shall be that which I will be."
The Jewish Bibles translate this phrase with a future tense, while Christian Bibles put it in the present tense. [I am]
Were the Christian translators influenced to create a match with John 8:58 ???
After all, Exodus is part of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Jews. It is really their book. Shouldn't their translation take precedence?
At the preceeding verse, Exodus 3:13, Moses says.."""Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"""
The sons of Israel may ask Moses....'""What is His name?"" because they did not know the God who was speaking to Moses.
IMO God's answer in the future tense..."I will be what I will be" is really a promise by God that in the future he will be who he will prove to be. As we know, God brought the plagues on Egypt, and delivered the sons of Israel from slavery. He promised...and he literally proved that he will be what he will be....God Almighty.
Re: Important Information on ""I AM""
There is no future tense in Hebrew. There's only perfect and imperfect tenses.
There is no future tense in Hebrew. There's only perfect and imperfect tenses.