Trinity?

[oldhermit]

Re: Important Information on ""I AM""

There is no future tense in Hebrew. There's only perfect and imperfect tenses.

It is interesting that he attempts to use arguments from the original languages when it is obvious he knows absolutely about either Hebrew or Greek. All of his argumentation is built on things he does not understand. I have attempted to engage him in conversation but he continues to avoid me like the plague.

 

[EbalT5]

Re: Messianic Expectations

Well, this [ Link -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52766-trinity-68.html#post1832603 ] was Why I asked you about when His Kingdom would be here. I honestly figured by things that you were saying that this is where your beliefs were and I only wanted to say to this that, what you believe against Him and about Him future tense will set you up to receive the anti-Christ.

The combo of not seeing Him as GOD in the flesh and expecting Him to fulfill all of the future tense prophesies and yet not believe that He's GOD is setting you up to expect just about anyone that fulfills what you've listed as your expectations of "his kingdom" ... when the "his" part is a non-Deity to you. That's scarey, Ebal ... not for me but for your sake.

For today friend, I have to get off of this computer now - but won't you consider at least a previous post -- as the Brother suggested that you do an exegetical study on John 1.

Also, I left a post on the other page -- here's the link to that one -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52766-trinity-67.html#post1828112

It's been a long day. Hope to get back here maybe tomorrow night. Take care.

If you think about whether Jesus is God or not you will notice that most of your proof texts are from John's Gospel.
First of all, John the Apostle didn't write the Gospel. The Catholic Encyclopedia recognizes that the Gospel was written anonymously.
Second of all there is evidence that the gospel was edited from its orignal form.
Third of all the gospel can be dated from internal evidence to sometime later than 130AD, almost 100 years after Jesus died.
I contend that without John's Gospel you could not make a credible case for the Diety of Jesus and John's gospel is just not reliable.
Topping it off, as I have pointed out the gospel writer himself says that he wrote to prove Jesus is the Christ. So no God.

If you read my post on Messianic Expectatons it should be evident that Jesus did not fulfill any of the legitimate Messianic promises. So what did Jesus do that we can verify to prove that he is the legitimate Messiah?

IMO Jesus did nothing to prove his claim that he is the Messiah. Now we can believe on faith but not on evidence.

I am not afraid of the truth. I was born into a religious family and I have been studying my whole life. I let Scripture lead me where ever it leads.

 

[EbalT5]

Re: Important Information on ""I AM""

There is no future tense in Hebrew. There's only perfect and imperfect tenses.

Are you disputing the Jewish trnslations of Exodus 3:14?
Do you suppose you know better than Jewish scholars who have been studying the Scriptures for thousands of years?

 

[EbalT5]

you cannot have a kingdom without subjects...
John 10:9-11King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]9 [/SUP]I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

[SUP]11 [/SUP]I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

In the Gospels Jesus mentioned the Kingdom over 100 times.
As a Jew he knew that the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth was the centerpiece of God's plan.

 

[EbalT5]

John 14:7-9 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


That should bring to an end that part of the argument.

The Father is invisible. Thousands saw Jesus.
Did it ever occur to you that Jesus was making a claim in a metaphoric way that he and the father were in agreement.

 

[JimmieD]

Re: Important Information on ""I AM""

Are you disputing the Jewish trnslations of Exodus 3:14?
Do you suppose you know better than Jewish scholars who have been studying the Scriptures for thousands of years?

I thought my post would have been fairly clear that I dispute your incorrect use of Hebrew verb tenses. I know that there are two tenses of verbs in Hebrew - there is no past, present and future tense, only perfect and imperfect. It's not my fault you didn't know that. Rashi and Rambam won't help you here with your glaring mistake.

I let Scripture lead me where ever it leads.

...unless it leads to conjugating verbs of foreign languages correctly.

First of all, John the Apostle didn't write the Gospel. The Catholic Encyclopedia recognizes that the Gospel was written anonymously.

Non sequitur. So if it's anonymous, how can you assert it wasn't John the Apostle? It seems if it's anonymous, then you simply don't know who wrote it; asserting that it definitely wasn't John the Apostle requires it's own argument.

Second of all there is evidence that the gospel was edited from its orignal form.

As were all the books of the bible. This really isn't an impressive argument - or an argument at all. You have to show that "ChristIsGod's" proof texts were edited and not original, not just state that the gospel was edited. Which parts were edited? Which parts weren't? You essentially commit a hasty generalization: parts of John's gospel were edited -> therefore, all of it's parts were edited (especially the parts you don't think are true, ).

 

[oldhermit]

Re: Important Information on ""I AM""

I thought my post would have been fairly clear that I dispute your incorrect use of Hebrew verb tenses. I know that there are two tenses of verbs in Hebrew - there is no past, present and future tense, only perfect and imperfect. It's not my fault you didn't know that. Rashi and Rambam won't help you here with your glaring mistake.



...unless it leads to conjugating verbs of foreign languages correctly.



Non sequitur. So if it's anonymous, how can you assert it wasn't John the Apostle? It seems if it's anonymous, then you simply don't know who wrote it; asserting that it definitely wasn't John the Apostle requires it's own argument.



As were all the books of the bible. This really isn't an impressive argument - or an argument at all. You have to show that "ChristIsGod's" proof texts were edited and not original, not just state that the gospel was edited. Which parts were edited? Which parts weren't? You essentially commit a hasty generalization: parts of John's gospel were edited -> therefore, all of it's parts were edited (especially the parts you don't think are true, ).

If you challenge him on the language he will ignore you like he does me. He knows he does not have the knowledge nor the tools to engage someone who knows the language. He is nothing but a coward who tries to bully people who do not know any better and who cannot call his hand on his misrepresentations of the text or the language.

 

[EbalT5]

ISAIAH 53 NOT ABOUT JESUS

Was Isaiah 53 about Jesus?
I say No! If even one verse does not pertain to Jesus then it is not about Jesus.

Isaiah 53:3 (New American Standard Bible)
3He was despised and forsaken of men,
A man of sorrows and acquainted with grief;
And like one from whom men hide their face
He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.
Do you think that description fits Jesus?
I think that Jesus was wildly popular, and people crowded around him, and listened to him speak.
Matthew 4:23-25 (New American Standard Bible)
23Jesus was going throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom, and healing every kind of disease and every kind of sickness among the people.
24The news about Him spread throughout all Syria; and they brought to Him all who were ill, those suffering with various diseases and pains, demoniacs, epileptics, paralytics; and He healed them.
25Large crowds followed Him from Galilee and the Decapolis and Jerusalem and Judea and from beyond the Jordan.
I can probably find a dozen passages like this showing how popular Jesus was. Think about preaching to the multitude the sermon on the mount, feeding the 5000, feeding the 4000, riding a donkey into town to the cheers of his countrymen.
Jesus was mobbed every time he showed up. He was more popular than the Beatles.
This verse does not describe Jesus.

 

[Karraster]

Re: Important Information on ""I AM""

Has anyone ever checked out
Exodus 3:14 in a Jewish Bible?
The Chabad Translation has "I will be what I will be"
The Stone Chumash has it "I shall be as I shall be."
Rashi rendered it as "I will be what I will be."
The Pentateuch by Hirsch, has it as "I shall be that which I will be."

The Jewish Bibles translate this phrase with a future tense, while Christian Bibles put it in the present tense. [I am]
Were the Christian translators influenced to create a match with John 8:58 ???
After all, Exodus is part of the Hebrew Scriptures of the Jews. It is really their book. Shouldn't their translation take precedence?

At the preceeding verse, Exodus 3:13, Moses says.."""Behold, I am going to the sons of Israel, and I will say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you.' Now they may say to me, 'What is His name?' What shall I say to them?"""
The sons of Israel may ask Moses....'""What is His name?"" because they did not know the God who was speaking to Moses.
IMO God's answer in the future tense..."I will be what I will be" is really a promise by God that in the future he will be who he will prove to be. As we know, God brought the plagues on Egypt, and delivered the sons of Israel from slavery. He promised...and he literally proved that he will be what he will be....God Almighty.

Isn't this our Creator telling us that He is whatever He wants to be and there's no way we can put Him in a neat little box!

Yet some go on and on He is 3 a three headed god..eerily like pagan deities. No on can describe Him, the Maker of all that exists, and those who claim to understand the self existing eternal Father, oh they have it all figured out...well, they don't.

I believe scripture, all of it including the "gospels" and they say YaHshua is one with His Father who sent Him, has been given all authority and to Him we must obey. RCC has institutionalized the trinity doctrine and he who does not agree are dead meat. pooie, i am not RCC and any doctrine that comes from the "church" I question.

 

[EbalT5]

Re: Important Information on ""I AM""

Isn't this our Creator telling us that He is whatever He wants to be and there's no way we can put Him in a neat little box!

Yet some go on and on He is 3 a three headed god..eerily like pagan deities. No on can describe Him, the Maker of all that exists, and those who claim to understand the self existing eternal Father, oh they have it all figured out...well, they don't.

I believe scripture, all of it including the "gospels" and they say YaHshua is one with His Father who sent Him, has been given all authority and to Him we must obey. RCC has institutionalized the trinity doctrine and he who does not agree are dead meat. pooie, i am not RCC and any doctrine that comes from the "church" I question.

I think it is a good idea to be like a Berean and check everything to see that it is so.
John 10:30New American Standard Bible (NASB)
30 I and the Father are one.”
　John 17:20-22New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

When it says that Jesus, God, or Jesus' disciples are one it really means that they are in agreement intellectually. Nothing more IMO.

 

[Karraster]

Re: Important Information on ""I AM""

I think it is a good idea to be like a Berean and check everything to see that it is so.
John 10:30New American Standard Bible (NASB)
30 I and the Father are one.”
　John 17:20-22New American Standard Bible (NASB)
20 “I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21 that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one;

When it says that Jesus, God, or Jesus' disciples are one it really means that they are in agreement intellectually. Nothing more IMO.

I agree we should be like the Bereans if we do indeed love truth. Being one, as you say, does mean unity of mind and purpose. As you know tho, I still do hold that YaHshua is the begotten son of Yah the Father, and has been given all authority. How is it He did all the miracles, the blind from birth to see? wasn't that the big sign the Jews were looking for, making a man,blind from birth to see?

What did you think of my post a page or 2 back concerning how prophecy is not necessarily fulfilled all at once? and are you familiar with the 10 hanged after WWII, fulfilling prophecy of Esther again? I find that so fascinating.

 

[ChristIsGod]

Re: Messianic Expectations

If you think about whether Jesus is God or not you will notice that most of your proof texts are from John's Gospel.
First of all, John the Apostle didn't write the Gospel. The Catholic Encyclopedia recognizes that the Gospel was written anonymously.
Second of all there is evidence that the gospel was edited from its orignal form.
Third of all the gospel can be dated from internal evidence to sometime later than 130AD, almost 100 years after Jesus died.
I contend that without John's Gospel you could not make a credible case for the Diety of Jesus and John's gospel is just not reliable.
Topping it off, as I have pointed out the gospel writer himself says that he wrote to prove Jesus is the Christ. So no God.

If you read my post on Messianic Expectatons it should be evident that Jesus did not fulfill any of the legitimate Messianic promises. So what did Jesus do that we can verify to prove that he is the legitimate Messiah?

IMO Jesus did nothing to prove his claim that he is the Messiah. Now we can believe on faith but not on evidence.

I am not afraid of the truth. I was born into a religious family and I have been studying my whole life. I let Scripture lead me where ever it leads.

Well, I started to read this and half way through my tear ducts started to swell because of your soul but towards the ending I was angry in my spirit and thought, this guy needs to leave and then saw after I had gotten to your last line that you are gone.

Good bye, Ebal. God have mercy on you, I pray with all of my heart and in all sincerity.

 

[newbirth]

In the Gospels Jesus mentioned the Kingdom over 100 times.
As a Jew he knew that the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth was the centerpiece of God's plan.

tell us exactly how that kingdom is established without subjects....you think you have some new revelation....unless a man is born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God

 

[ChristIsGod]

Re: Important Information on ""I AM""

Isa 44:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself

Col 1:16,17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: and he is before all things, and by him all things consist.


Does the "Catholic Encyclopedia" throw out Paul as well? I doubt that they threw out John except for 1Jn 5:7 which doesn't affect our theology at all either way.


Isa 40:8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
Isa 40:9 O Zion, that bringest good tidings, get thee up into the high mountain; O Jerusalem, that bringest good tidings,
lift up thy voice with strength; lift it up, be not afraid; say unto the cities of Judah, Behold your God!

1Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


This -> http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/52766-trinity-68.html#post1833118 is wrong.

The root of 'hayah' is 'havah' and a real Jew would call Him, "The Self-Existent One" because "exist" is the focus of both hayah and havah.

The Jewish Publication Society's version of the verse is: 14 And God said unto Moses: 'I AM THAT I AM'; and He said: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: I AM hath sent me unto you.' Breslov References & Citations - Exodus 3:1-22


LXX = Exo 3:14 καιG2532 CONJ ειπενV-AAI-3S οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM προςG4314 PREP μωυσηνN-ASM εγωG1473 P-NS ειμιG1510 V-PAI-1S οG3588 T-NSM ωνG1510 V-PAPNS καιG2532 CONJ ειπενV-AAI-3S ουτωςG3778 ADV ερειςV-FAI-2S τοιςG3588 T-DPM υιοιςG5207 N-DPM ισραηλG2474 N-PRI οG3588 T-NSM ωνG1510 V-PAPNS απεσταλκενG649 V-RAI-3S μεG1473 P-AS προςG4314 PREP υμαςG4771 P-AP

"I Exist"

Same as - Joh 8:58 ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S αυτοιςG846 P-DPM οG3588 T-NSM ιησουςG2424 N-NSM αμηνG281 HEB αμηνG281 HEB λεγωG3004 V-PAI-1S υμινG4771 P-2DP πρινG4250 ADV αβρααμG11 N-PRI γενεσθαιG1096 V-2ADN εγωG1473 P-1NS ειμιG1510 V-PAI-1S



And the Main Verse and Main Focus of our lives must be -- John 8:24 --

"I said therefore unto you that ye shall die in your sins:
for G1063 if G1437 ye believe G4100 not G3361 that G3754 I G1473 am G1510
ye shall die in your sins."



Regardless of what you believe the Catholic Encyclopedia allegedly states.

 

[Bowman]

John 14:7-9 (NIV)
[SUP]7 [/SUP]If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?


That should bring to an end that part of the argument.

We have already been over this out-of-context pet scripture with you numerous times time, brother.

It does NOT state that The Father is The Son.

Start off the New Year right, by pulling your head out...

 

[VCO]

The Father is invisible. Thousands saw Jesus.
Did it ever occur to you that Jesus was making a claim in a metaphoric way that he and the father were in agreement.

Did it ever occur to you that JESUS MEANT IT LITERALLY, and therefore they really are ONE. You can stick with your metaphoric THEORIES if you want; but as for me an my house WE WILL BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.

 

[oldhermit]

Did it ever occur to you that JESUS MEANT IT LITERALLY, and therefore they really are ONE. You can stick with your metaphoric THEORIES if you want; but as for me an my house WE WILL BELIEVE WHAT HE SAYS.

2 Corinthians 5:19 (NKJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP] that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Isaiah 43:10-11 (HCSB)
[SUP]10 [/SUP] “You are My witnesses”— ⌊this is⌋ the LORD’s declaration— “and My servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe Me and understand that I am He. No god was formed before Me, and there will be none after Me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP] I, I am Yahweh, and there is no other Savior but Me.

Luke 2:11 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP] Today a Savior, who is Messiah the Lord, was born for you in the city of David.

Don't waste your time. He's been banned.

 

[VCO]

tell us exactly how that kingdom is established without subjects....you think you have some new revelation....unless a man is born of water and of the spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God

YES, you are right the KINGDOM begins the moment you are Born Again, and the Holy Spirit brings your human spirit to Eternal LIFE. Because that born again human spirit willingly gets DOWN off that throne in your heart and GIVES THAT THRONE TO JESUS, to rule from as LORD and MASTER.

 

[VCO]

Don't waste your time. He's been banned.

Didn't even notice, lol. Oh well, most of my posts are for the lambs that are readers, and not for the one I posted to.

 

[newbirth]

YES, you are right the KINGDOM begins the moment you are Born Again, and the Holy Spirit brings your human spirit to Eternal LIFE. Because that born again human spirit willingly gets DOWN off that throne in your heart and GIVES THAT THRONE TO JESUS, to rule from as LORD and MASTER.

God is not in the refurbishing business...He gives us a new Spirit and we await a new body....did you not know that is the reason He put Adam and Eve out from the garden ....so they could not eat from the tree of life in their state....
why do you always try to sneak in your false doctrine???

the Holy Spirit brings your human spirit to Eternal LIFE

where exactly does the scripture teach that???
2 Corinthians 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Genesis 3:22-24King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP]And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.