Greater than or equal to?

[Hizikyah]

This is Yahshua (Jesus) speaking:

John (Yahchanan) 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Did He break the Sabbath, or was this the pharisees falsely accusing Him? and if He break the Sabbath how is He the spotless Lamb?

No He did not break the Sabbath:

Matt 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."

So we can see the accusation of Him "breaking the Sabbath" was false, was the other accusation also false "making Himself equal with God"?

Why did Paul repeat this accusation of the Pharisees when the Savior Himself said, "for the Father is greater than I"

This is Paul speaking:

Philippians 2:6, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

John (Yahchanan) 14:28, "...for the Father is greater than I."

Did Paul, an ex-pharisee, have error when he said this, as the Savior Himself says the exact opposite....

And since Paul is in direct opposition to what Yahshua (Jesus) says How do we reconcile this?

Is Yahweh higher than Yahshua?

or

Is Yahshua equal to Yahweh?

Who should we obey if there seems to be a dicrepancy? Yahshua (Jesus) or Paul?

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Im not attacking Paul, but Paul was a ex-pharisee who had an extremely high level of education. But why was this warning given?

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paulalso wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

 

[Karraster]

Philippians 2:6 Explained

when you have time, please tell me what you think of this. thanks.

 

[Hizikyah]

Philippians 2:6 Explained

when you have time, please tell me what you think of this. thanks.

So I have read some of that article. There is a lot there. I will need time to fully read it.

 

[GodIsSalvation]

Philippians 2:7-11 answers this well.

 

[Hizikyah]

Philippians 2:7-11 answers this well.

[h=1]Philippians 2:7-11King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]7 [/SUP]But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[SUP]11 [/SUP]And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[Butch5]

This is Yahshua (Jesus) speaking:

John (Yahchanan) 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Did He break the Sabbath, or was this the pharisees falsely accusing Him? and if He break the Sabbath how is He the spotless Lamb?

No He did not break the Sabbath:

Matt 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it isLawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."

So we can see the accusation of Him "breaking the Sabbath" was false, was the other accusation also false "making Himself equal with God"?

Why did Paul repeat this accusation of the Pharisees when the Savior Himself said, "for the Father is greater than I"

This is Paul speaking:

Philippians 2:6, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

John (Yahchanan) 14:28, "...for the Father is greater than I."

Did Paul, an ex-pharisee, have error when he said this, as the Savior Himself says the exact opposite....

And since Paul is in direct opposition to what Yahshua (Jesus) says How do we reconcile this?

Is Yahweh higher than Yahshua?

or

Is Yahshua equal to Yahweh?

Who should we obey if there seems to be a dicrepancy? Yahshua (Jesus) or Paul?

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Im not attacking Paul, but Paul was a ex-pharisee who had an extremely high level of education. But why was this warning given?

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paulalso wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

Hi Hezikyah,

I don't know that that passage is the original. Look at some other translations.

ASV Philippians 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Phi 2:6 ASV)

CJB Philippians 2:6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.
(Phi 2:6 CJB)

MIT Philippians 2:6 Who, possessing God's image, did not consider equality with God a right to be clutched. (Phi 2:6 MIT)

NAS Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,


NET Philippians 2:6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

These translations say that Christ didn't think equality with God was something to be grasped. I think this is the correct passage as it's quoted early in church history this way.

 

[Hizikyah]

Hi Hezikyah,

I don't know that that passage is the original. Look at some other translations.

ASV Philippians 2:6 who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, (Phi 2:6 ASV)

CJB Philippians 2:6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force.
(Phi 2:6 CJB)

MIT Philippians 2:6 Who, possessing God's image, did not consider equality with God a right to be clutched. (Phi 2:6 MIT)

NAS Philippians 2:6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,


NET Philippians 2:6 who though he existed in the form of God did not regard equality with God as something to be grasped,

These translations say that Christ didn't think equality with God was something to be grasped. I think this is the correct passage as it's quoted early in church history this way.

If this is so that would alleviate any discrepancy or error on this matter. (IMO)

To be up front, I have not studied many different manuscripts of Philippians, do you know what manuscripts were used in these translations? Or is, "equal to" simply mistranslation by some translators?

 

[psychomom]

this entire conversation...and especially that link...

are making me very uneasy...

 

[Hizikyah]

this entire conversation...and especially that link...

are making me very uneasy...

I brought this up because for me to understand this is important, I want to learn, and I know there is so much out there to learn, I wanted others to weigh in. I go with Yahshua words to be up front, but I do want to explore what is here, where written that way or mistranslated, IDK. But I want to.

 

[psychomom]

I brought this up because for me to understand this is important, I want to learn, and I know there is so much out there to learn, I wanted others to weigh in. I go with Yahshua words to be up front, but I do want to explore what is here, where written that way or mistranslated, IDK. But I want to.

understandable and commendable.
and i only spent about 10 minutes looking it over, but that link seems to expressly deny the deity of Christ.

and i quote:
There are numerous reasons within the context of Philippians that disprove the doctrine that Jesus is “God” in Philippians 2:6.

if you (could possibly, using good scholarship) 'disprove' the deity of Christ in Phil 2:6,
it's over, man.
the entire Christian faith, down the tubes.

here's the thing, and it makes me uneasy often on these boards.
people say things like, they'll go with the words of Jesus over (insert name here)
and don't appear to realize every Word is a Word of Christ.
what words the Lord spoke in human form on this earth are no more nor less important
than every other Bible word.

that's why there's this nifty thing called the whole counsel of God.

perhaps i'm a bit jumpy over this topic because we have friends...we raised our kids together...
we attended the same church; he was our teacher and a gifted one.
they began celebrating the OT feasts to show their children Jesus in them.
that was great! we joined them in it.
then they began using different names for Bible words, much as you do.
that was fine...nomenclature doesn't bother me much; lots of languages in the world.

from there it was their son had to be circumcised, they started withdrawing from the Christian community, he began this (to me) crazy website and they officially converted to Judaism.

we all have a worldview, and it informs our choices. we all have a frame of reference for God's Word,
and it informs our perspective. we don't have to agree on all things, but i think
Jesus is God
oughta be one of them?

if i've taken the info from that website wrongly, i do humbly apologize.
will study it further tomorrow.

 

[Karraster]

Philippians 2:6 interpreted either way, would not change my walk. If 1 verse of the whole counsel of the Living Words being misunderstood would cause a whole religion to go down the tubes...that sounds rather precarious. Am i to believe that any man pretends to understand every single verse in the bible? wow, that's news to me.

 

[Hizikyah]

understandable and commendable.
and i only spent about 10 minutes looking it over, but that link seems to expressly deny the deity of Christ.

and i quote:
There are numerous reasons within the context of Philippians that disprove the doctrine that Jesus is “God” in Philippians 2:6.

if you (could possibly, using good scholarship) 'disprove' the deity of Christ in Phil 2:6,
it's over, man.
the entire Christian faith, down the tubes.

This thread was/is in no way to support or discredit the Messiah's status as deity. I simply want to expose OR dissolve the "discrepancy", expose OR dissolve which ever one is right.

here's the thing, and it makes me uneasy often on these boards.
people say things like, they'll go with the words of Jesus over (insert name here)
and don't appear to realize every Word is a Word of Christ.
what words the Lord spoke in human form on this earth are no more nor less important
than every other Bible word.

that's why there's this nifty thing called the whole counsel of God.

In ways I agree and in ways I don't; the whole council of Yah, yes. However we KNOW that Paul and Peter made mistakes IN THIER MINISTRY, we also know Yahshua did not make any mistakes. Peter himself says Paul can be/is hard to understand to those not well learned in the ENTIRE WORD (whole counsel)

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."

What some people do not understand about Paul is he could cite the first 5 books off of memory...

Really think about that for a second....

NUMBER OF TIMES PAUL QUOTES, cites, OR REFERENCES THE OLD TESTAMENT
{Also includes some of the Apostle Paul’s inferences to Scripture}
ROMANS {approximately 105 verses}
I CORINTHIANS {approximately 72+ verses}
II CORINTHIANS {approximately 21 verses}

GALATIANS {approximately 24 verses}
EPHESIANS {approximately 12 verses}
PHILIPPIANS {approximately 13+ verses}
COLOSSIANS {approximately 4 verses}
I THESSALONIANS {approximately 2 verses}
II THESSALONIANS {approximately 2 verses}
I TIMOTHY {approximately 13 verses}
etc

I have heard all kinds of different numbers, I have not counted myself so I take this as an estimate personally.

The Savior says this, "John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Because of this, if there is a possible discrepancy, or even perceived discrepancy, I personally side with Yahshua, because of the above verse and Deut 18:18-19.[FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][/FONT]

perhaps i'm a bit jumpy over this topic because we have friends...we raised our kids together...
we attended the same church; he was our teacher and a gifted one.
they began celebrating the OT feasts to show their children Jesus in them.
that was great! we joined them in it.
then they began using different names for Bible words, much as you do.
that was fine...nomenclature doesn't bother me much; lots of languages in the world.

from there it was their son had to be circumcised, they started withdrawing from the Christian community, he began this (to me) crazy website and they officially converted to Judaism.

I understand and IMO I think it is wel to be guarded. I do have to say, Judaism is not based on the OT, but it is based on the Talmud. As there is a saying, "they have 2 torahs, the written and the oral, and you can't understand the written without the oral." This is exactly what Yahshua spoke/acted against, in EVERY interaction with the Pharisees.

we all have a worldview, and it informs our choices. we all have a frame of reference for God's Word,
and it informs our perspective. we don't have to agree on all things, but i think
Jesus is God
oughta be one of them?

if i've taken the info from that website wrongly, i do humbly apologize.
will study it further tomorrow.

So that was not my link and I have not read it entirely, been posting, it was just a link K posted as a possibility I believe, I cant speak for anyone else, but I believe it is exploration.

 

[Hizikyah]

Philippians 2:6 interpreted either way, would not change my walk. If 1 verse of the whole counsel of the Living Words being misunderstood would cause a whole religion to go down the tubes...that sounds rather precarious. Am i to believe that any man pretends to understand every single verse in the bible? wow, that's news to me.

I agree with, "Philippians 2:6 interpreted either way, would not change my walk"

If it a mistranslation cool.

If it's a error, Paul made a mistake, all of us do.

I just want to know the correct words/view.

 

[psychomom]

Philippians 2:6 interpreted either way, would not change my walk. If 1 verse of the whole counsel of the Living Words being misunderstood would cause a whole religion to go down the tubes...that sounds rather precarious. Am i to believe that any man pretends to understand every single verse in the bible? wow, that's news to me.

well, of course not...i don't see anyone claiming to grasp every verse.

and it might not change your walk (the way you live)
but it might change your eternal destination?

 

[psychomom]

I agree with, "Philippians 2:6 interpreted either way, would not change my walk"

If it a mistranslation cool.

If it's a error, Paul made a mistake, all of us do.

I just want to know the correct words/view.

but that's what i feel is being misunderstood here.
you're not saying Paul made a mistake.

you'd be saying God made a mistake.

 

[Karraster]

well, of course not...i don't see anyone claiming to grasp every verse.

and it might not change your walk (the way you live)
but it might change your eternal destination?

I don't see how. please explain.

 

[Joidevivre]

John 1 In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word WAS God.

John 1:14 And the Word BECAME FLESH AND LIVED AMONG US.


Nothing clearer than that - and you don't have to understand it. But it is the truth. Jesus was God in the flesh. You need to understand the trinity. One God yet comprised of 3 different functions. Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But that's another thread that's been done many times.

 

[Karraster]

Let me say this, I believe completely that my Creator is everything His Word says He is. If I don't understand exactly what "begotten" means..referring to YaHshua/Jesus/Messiah -the biology of how He became a man, to put it as delicately as I can, it would not change that He is (YaHshua) the One we must obey. That's especially why I like His Hebrew Name, because He really did come in the Name of the Father..to do the will of Father. I don't understand many things, but this I do know..the Almighty is better to me than I deserve, and I trust His will for me, whatever He has in mind, He is my Maker, how can the pot say to the potter why did you make me this way? He is, whether we understand it or not..He is.

 

[JonahLynx]

There is no discrepancy if you believe in the Trinity. Both the Father and Son (and Spirit) are God. Jesus is equal to God because He is God; but the Father is greater than the Son within the Trinity (God). Alternatively, you would have to believe that Scripture (either by John or Paul) is contradictory - a position I vehemently reject.

 

[Hizikyah]

but that's what i feel is being misunderstood here.
you're not saying Paul made a mistake.

you'd be saying God made a mistake.

Did Paul not admit HE made mistakes in his ministry? and it cold be a translation issue, which would be mans fault IMO.

All people have free will, there are no holy Spirit robots that I know of in Scripture.