THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[haz]

Wait.. I don't mean to jump into your conversation but Hebrew 10 :26 says IN THE VERSE it is for those that know the truth.....

Hebrews 10:26-31, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Father."

Paul had the knowledge of the truth. Hence he fought the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12) keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, and that without spot or blemish at keeping this commandment.

Phil 3:4-9
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


but those who truly knew the truth in Christ (Heb 6:4-6) and in spite of this still turn back to works of the law, they are those who reject the truth and are like a dog returning to its vomit.

When I read this, I think; Using the Messiah dead body as a doormat for sin is beyond error, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Father".

Grace is not a license to do wrong. Christians face chastisement when we do wrong, hence we will not profit by it.

But those under the law do not face chastisement. They reject God's grace hence they face death.

 

[kennethcadwell]

how does one sin willfully?
Gal 2:18
For if I build again the things which I destroyed (righteousness by works of the law), I make myself a transgressor.(Sinner).

Whatever the law says, it says to those under it, Rom 3:19.

Thus we see the willful sinners are they who reject God's grace by turning back to the law for righteousness. It is those who put themselves under the law who are the sinners as whatever the law says it says to them.

Christians, however, cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law as we're not under its jurisdiction anyway (Rom 8:2, Rom 10:4, Gal 3:25, Gal 5:18, 1Tim 1:9).

Rom 8:33
Who shall lay ANY THING (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth

Thus we see that Heb 10:26 does not apply to Christians as we have the knowledge of the truth. We believe on Jesus.






Again this refers to those who reject God's grace by turning back to the law for righteousness (which is unbelief). Such are like the dog returning to its vomit, as such people turn away from righteousness in Christ and return instead to their own filthy rag righteousness by works of the law.



The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" did the will of God.

What is God's will?
John 6:40
And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And to that part that I highlighted and enlarged that you said is completely in error.
The passage in Hebrews 10 clear says that it is for believers;

Hebrews 10:26-27

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The knowledge of the truth is salvation through our Lord Jesus, by His sacrifice that gives us true forgiveness of sins if we confess and repent of them to Him. Which this goes hand and hand with 2 Peter 2:20-22, and that is why I gave that scripture as well. You can not be forgiven of your sins if you do not confess and repent of them, and if you continue to walk in them willfully without doing what was commanded of us to do by Him.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Paul had the knowledge of the truth. Hence he fought the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12) keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, and that without spot or blemish at keeping this commandment.

Phil 3:4-9
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


but those who truly knew the truth in Christ (Heb 6:4-6) and in spite of this still turn back to works of the law, they are those who reject the truth and are like a dog returning to its vomit.



Grace is not a license to do wrong. Christians face chastisement when we do wrong, hence we will not profit by it.

But those under the law do not face chastisement. They reject God's grace hence they face death.

I am glad you mentioned 1 Timothy, because Paul warns Timothy that he can become impure from sin again;

1 Timothy 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

 

[Kerry]

Can any man keep himself pure?

 

[Kerry]

I Meant Paul had a thorn in the flesh and prayed three times asking God to remove it (meaning he could not remove it himself and neede God to remove it ). God replied to him and said no, My grace is sufficient for you.

 

[Mitspa]

Well let me pose it to you like this then.
If the Lord fulfilled the whole law at the cross, then why did He tell us that by loving Him with all our heart, soul, and mind, and love our neighbors as ourselves; By following these two commands all the law and prophets are fulfilled. He did not do away with or fulfill them at the cross, He left us with the two greatest commands to follow to fulfill the law and the prophets.
What was done away with at the cross was the need for a sacrifice for sin, because He became that perfect sacrifice, and the punishment for breaking the laws for breaking the laws as He took the punishment for us. We are no longer held to the written ordinances of the law that say if you do this, then you are put to death, stoned, and so on....
Now if as a believer you continue to disobey God's moral laws there no longer remains a sacrifice for you, but spiritual death awaiting at judgment.

Hebrews 10:26-27

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

His sacrifice is made of no affect to those who continue or return to keep on sinning willfully (deliberately), and they will face judgment instead and the lake of fire. They will not receive salvation, because even though they profess to know God, in their works they deny Him. ( Titus 1:16 )

2 Peter 2:20-22


For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome,

( The defilements of the word is our sins, we are defiled by our sins. )

the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.

( It would be better if they had not know and walked the way of God previously, and then turned away from Him do to willful sins. Now their punishment will be worse, then if they never knew the way. Look at Luke 12 for example. )

What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”


The dog returned to his vomit, or in other words loved the sins of the world more then God, so they went back to those sins they did not want to give up.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10:22And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.



Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.

Lets take your point one at a time... Ok? Why did Jesus magnify love as the fulfillment of the demands of the law? Well we know that is His Commandment... we know we are under the law of Christ to love as He has loved us and all the law is fulfilled in one word... So the Lord was not teaching doctrine as we understand the epistles to teach...He was speaking to those under the law in the terms of the law....He had not died and satisfied the law at that point... But the purpose of the law and its fulfillment through faith and love was a revelation given to the Church through the Holy Spirit that spoke of what The Lord had done and who and what He is.... Now this seems very easy to understand to me...I cant understand why any honest person cannot see this evident truth?

 

[newbirth]

First you have made no point and the scriptures clearly refute your point and show your error...if you choose to ignore them...I cannot help you.

Ro 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

you are the one who said my point is unbiblical...now you say I made no point...then you say scripture refute my point the same unbiblical point you said I never made....you are the one who needs help bro...to top it of...you try to refute the scripture I post by posting the same scripture...

 

[Mitspa]

And to that part that I highlighted and enlarged that you said is completely in error.
The passage in Hebrews 10 clear says that it is for believers;

Hebrews 10:26-27

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The knowledge of the truth is salvation through our Lord Jesus, by His sacrifice that gives us true forgiveness of sins if we confess and repent of them to Him. Which this goes hand and hand with 2 Peter 2:20-22, and that is why I gave that scripture as well. You can not be forgiven of your sins if you do not confess and repent of them, and if you continue to walk in them willfully without doing what was commanded of us to do by Him.

The willful sin and the whole point of the book of Hebrews is those who reject grace and turn back to the law (the strength of sin) that's WILFULL sin!

 

[Mitspa]

you are the one who said my point is unbiblical...now you say I made no point...then you say scripture refute my point the same unbiblical point you said I never made....you are the one who needs help bro...to top it of...you try to refute the scripture I post by posting the same scripture...

Yes I agree it is unbiblical and lacks any real substance ... If you want to have an honest discussion ...you have to show at least some attempt to be honest about the meaning of words and their clear intention.

I give you another shot.... what do you think these scriptures are saying?


Ro 3:19 ¶ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

 

[Kerry]

Mitspa keeping law is self righteousness and don't you dare fool with their righteousness or they will tell you to leave and never come back. That is the offense of the cross, you will never be good enough and need to rely on something other than yourself and that angers the flesh and is why they killed the Messiah and the prophets and the Apostles.

 

[haz]

Wait.. I don't mean to jump into your conversation but Hebrew 10 :26 says IN THE VERSE it is for those that know the truth.....

Hebrews 10:26-31, "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. Those who rejected the Law given through Mosheh died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished, who has trampled the Son of Yahweh underfoot, and has counted the blood of the covenant (with which He was sanctified) an unholy thing, and who has insulted the Spirit of mercy? For we know Him Who has said: Vengeance is Mine; I will repay, says Yahweh. And again: Yahweh will judge His people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Father."

Paul had the knowledge of the truth. Hence he fought the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12) keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, and that without spot or blemish at keeping this commandment.

Phil 3:4-9
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


but those who truly knew the truth in Christ (Heb 6:4-6) and in spite of this still turn back to works of the law, they are those who reject the truth and are like a dog returning to its vomit.

When I read this, I think; Using the Messiah dead body as a doormat for sin is beyond error, "It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living Father".

Grace is not a license to do wrong. Christians face chastisement when we do wrong, hence we will not profit by it.

But those under the law do not face chastisement. They reject God's grace hence they face death.

 

[Hizikyah]

Paul had the knowledge of the truth. Hence he fought the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12) keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, and that without spot or blemish at keeping this commandment.

Phil 3:4-9
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


but those who truly knew the truth in Christ (Heb 6:4-6) and in spite of this still turn back to works of the law, they are those who reject the truth and are like a dog returning to its vomit.



Grace is not a license to do wrong. Christians face chastisement when we do wrong, hence we will not profit by it.

But those under the law do not face chastisement. They reject God's grace hence they face death.

Isayah 59:21, "As for Me, this is My covenant with them, says Yahweh: My Spirit which is upon you, namely My Word which I have put in your mouth; they will not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your seed, nor from the mouth of your seed's seed, says Yahweh: from this time and forevermore."

 

[Hizikyah]

Does reading Scripture, particularly the Words of Yahsua (Jesus) and seeking to follow it make one evil and thus fallen? Is it only right to ignore all that is written?

Or is it that if one thinks their own actions will make them acceptable then they are fallen?

 

[haz]

And to that part that I highlighted and enlarged that you said is completely in error.
The passage in Hebrews 10 clear says that it is for believers;

Hebrews 10:26-27

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

The knowledge of the truth is salvation through our Lord Jesus, by His sacrifice that gives us true forgiveness of sins if we confess and repent of them to Him. Which this goes hand and hand with 2 Peter 2:20-22, and that is why I gave that scripture as well. You can not be forgiven of your sins if you do not confess and repent of them, and if you continue to walk in them willfully without doing what was commanded of us to do by Him.

I suggest you you read my post again to see what I actually said.

you incorrectly see Heb 10:26 in terms of wrong behavior, thus you misunderstand it.

Im saying that the charge of wilfull sin, in the terms you incorrectly state, does not apply to Christians, as we continue to believe on Jesus.

It seems to me that you might be a legalist preaching righteousness by works of the law.

 

[newbirth]

Lets take your point one at a time... Ok? Why did Jesus magnify love as the fulfillment of the demands of the law? Well we know that is His Commandment... we know we are under the law of Christ to love as He has loved us and all the law is fulfilled in one word... So the Lord was not teaching doctrine as we understand the epistles to teach...He was speaking to those under the law in the terms of the law....He had not died and satisfied the law at that point... But the purpose of the law and its fulfillment through faith and love was a revelation given to the Church through the Holy Spirit that spoke of what The Lord had done and who and what He is.... Now this seems very easy to understand to me...I cant understand why any honest person cannot see this evident truth?

you are trying to imply that Christ was teaching double standards?? the message in the epistles is the same message the apostles were taught by our Lord...you say ...

He had not died and satisfied the law at that point..

he had to satisfy the law first then die...so the law could find no fault in him......that is why death could not keep him


you keep talking about law and it's purpose....is Paul lying here....look at the original purpose of the commandment...
Romans 7:8-10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

 

[haz]

I am glad you mentioned 1 Timothy, because Paul warns Timothy that he can become impure from sin again;

1 Timothy 5:22
Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure.

Again in you misunderstand sin.
Read Gal 2:18 to see how one makes themselves a sinner.

 

[Mitspa]

Paul had the knowledge of the truth. Hence he fought the good fight of faith (1Tim 6:12) keeping the commandment to believe on Jesus, and that without spot or blemish at keeping this commandment.

Phil 3:4-9
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


but those who truly knew the truth in Christ (Heb 6:4-6) and in spite of this still turn back to works of the law, they are those who reject the truth and are like a dog returning to its vomit.



Grace is not a license to do wrong. Christians face chastisement when we do wrong, hence we will not profit by it.

But those under the law do not face chastisement. They reject God's grace hence they face death.

This is important to understand that most dire warnings of the New Testament are not to those who continue in Gods grace and grow in that grace...but to those who return to the law are in jeopardy of losing their very souls... They have forsaken the way of righteousness... Now everybody knows that Christians under grace are far more Godly than those under the law and as long as they stay under grace they will always stand.... But the law will cause everyone under it to stumble...and some may very well lose the salvation granted to them by grace.


Ro 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

You are cut-off from Christ, you who seek to be justified by the law... Ye have fallen from grace

 

[Mitspa]

you are trying to imply that Christ was teaching double standards?? the message in the epistles is the same message the apostles were taught by our Lord...you say ... he had to satisfy the law first then die...so the law could find no fault in him......that is why death could not keep him


you keep talking about law and it's purpose....is Paul lying here....look at the original purpose of the commandment...
Romans 7:8-10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10[/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

lets put the whole context up and read it out loud to yourself 5 times!

Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Lets take your point one at a time... Ok? Why did Jesus magnify love as the fulfillment of the demands of the law? Well we know that is His Commandment... we know we are under the law of Christ to love as He has loved us and all the law is fulfilled in one word... So the Lord was not teaching doctrine as we understand the epistles to teach...He was speaking to those under the law in the terms of the law....He had not died and satisfied the law at that point... But the purpose of the law and its fulfillment through faith and love was a revelation given to the Church through the Holy Spirit that spoke of what The Lord had done and who and what He is.... Now this seems very easy to understand to me...I cant understand why any honest person cannot see this evident truth?

I know that by following the two greatest commandments that He gave us to follow fulfills that law.
What is hard to understand is why those who say they are in Christ, continue to say His 3 1/2 years of His earthly ministry was done away with or fulfilled at the cross. That is fallacy as His instructions were to all of us under the new covenant. If they were not to still be followed and obeyed then He would not have told the Apostles to go out and teach us to do just that, to observe/obey all that He commanded. This was His last instructions given to the Apostles in Matthew, to show that all of His teachings applied to all under the new covenant.

 

[Kerry]

lets put the whole context up and read it out loud to yourself 5 times!

Ro 7:7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

It also took him captive meaning bondage. And who shall deliver me from this body of death, I thank God for His Son the Lord Jesus Christ. It is all about faith in the work of the cross and not what we do, because there is nothing we can but have faith in the cross.