Greater than or equal to?

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Who is right?

  • Yahshua (Jesus) ("for the Father is greater than I")

    Votes: 5 33.3%
  • Paul (Jesus, equal with God")

    Votes: 3 20.0%
  • Other (Please explain)

    Votes: 7 46.7%

  • Total voters
    15
Equal in the sense that they are both God. Christ is not a created being, not an angel, He is God...

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

A lot is said here including the point that Christ is eternal (In Him was life), self existent.

Is Christ equal to the Father?

Joh 10:29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

Joh 13:16 Most assuredly, I say to you, a servant is not greater than his master; nor is he who is sent greater than he who sent him.

Joh 14:28 You have heard Me say to you, 'I am going away and coming back to you.' If you loved Me, you would rejoice because I said, 'I am going to the Father,' for My Father is greater than I.

That was when Christ was in the flesh, how about now?

1Co 15:24 Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For "HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS UNDER HIS FEET." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted.
1Co 15:28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

He is still called the Son of God...

Heb 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

The Father is over all, Christ is subject to Him.
 
Equal represents compatibility of Nature. This does not mean that each member of the Triadic Unity has the same function.
 
Acknowledging "I AM" essential for Salvation -

John 8:24 --
"I said therefore unto you that ye shall die in your sins:
for if ye believe Not that I G1473 Am G1510 ye shall die in your sins."

Php 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God
Philippians 2:6
- Albert Barnes -
"Who, being in the form of God - There is scarcely any passage in the New Testament which has given rise to more discussion than this. The importance of the passage on the question of the divinity of the Saviour will be perceived at once, and no small part of the point of the appeal by the apostle depends, as will be seen, in the fact that Paul regarded the Redeemer as equal with God. If he was truly divine, then his consenting to become a man was the most remarkable of all possible acts of humiliation. The word rendered “form” - μορφή morphē - occurs only in three places in the New Testament, and in each place is rendered “form.” Mar_16:12; Phi_2:6-7. In Mark it is applied to the form which Jesus assumed after his resurrection, and in which he appeared to two of his disciples on his way to Emmaus. “After that he appeared in another form unto two of them.” This “form” was so unlike his usual appearance, that they did not know him. The word properly means, form, shape, bodily shape, especially a beautiful form, a beautiful bodily appearance - Passow. In Phi_2:7, it is applied to the appearance of a servant - and took upon him the form of a servant;” that is, he was in the condition of a servant - or of the lowest condition. The word “form” is often applied to the gods by the classic writers, denoting their aspect or appearance when they became visible to people; see Cic. de Nat. Deor. ii. 2; Ovid, Meta. i. 37; Silius, xiii. 643; Xeno. Memora. iv; Aeneid, iv. 556, and other places cited by Wetstein, in loc. Hesychius explains it by ἰδέα εῖδος idea eidos. The word occurs often in the Septuagint:
(1) as the translation of the word ציי - Ziv - “splendour,” Dan_4:33; Dan_5:6, Dan_5:9-10; Dan_7:28;
(2) as the translation of the word תּבנית tabniyth, structure, model, pattern - as in building, Isa_44:13;
(3) as the translation of תּמונה temuwnah, appearance, form, shape, image, likeness, Job_4:16; see also Wisdom Job_18:1.
The word can have here only one or two meanings, either:
(1) splendor, majesty, glory - referring to the honor which the Redeemer had, his power to work miracles, etc. - or.
(2) nature, or essence - meaning the same as φύσις phusis, “nature,” or ουσία ousia, “being.”
The first is the opinion adopted by Crellius, Grotius, and others. Therefore Christ before the foundation of the world was in the form of God. For in the wisdom of God, before he put on our nature, there was nothing humble or abject, but there was magnificence worthy of God.” Commentary in loc. The second opinion is, that the word is equivalent to nature, or being; that is, that he was in the nature of God, or his mode of existence was that of God. This is the opinion adopted by Schleusner (Lexicon); Prof. Stuart (Letters to Dr. Channing, p. 40); Doddridge, and by orthodox expositors in general, and seems to me to be the correct interpretation. In support of this interpretation, and in opposition to that which refers it to his power of working miracles, or his divine appearance when on earth, we may adduce the following considerations:
(1) The “form” here referred to must have been something before he became a man, or before he took upon him the form of a servant. It was something from which he humbled himself by making “himself of no reputation;” by taking upon himself “the form of a servant;” and by being made “in the likeness of men.” Of course, it must have been something which existed when he had not the likeness of people; that is, before he became incarnate. He must therefore have had an existence before he appeared on earth as a man, and in that previous state of existence there must have been something which rendered it proper to say that he was “in the form of God", that the phrase “form of God” is one that naturally conveys the idea that he was God.
Thought it not robbery to be equal with God - This passage, also, has given occasion to much discussion. Prof. Stuart renders it: “did not regard his equality with God as an object of solicitous desire;” that is, that though he was of a divine nature or condition, be did not eagerly seek to retain his equality with God, but took on him an humble condition - even that of a servant. Letters to Channing, pp. 88-92. That this is the correct rendering of the passage is apparent from the following considerations:
(1) It accords with the scope and design of the apostle’s reasoning. His object is not to show, as our common translation would seem to imply, that he aspired to be equal with God, or that he did not regard it as an improper invasion of the prerogatives of God to be equal with him, but that he did not regard it, in the circumstances of the case, as an object to greatly desired or eagerly sought to retain his equality with God. Instead of retaining this by an earnest effort, or by a grasp which he was unwilling to relinquish, he chose to forego the dignity, and to assume the humble condition of a man.
(2) it accords better with the Greek than the common version. The word rendered “robbery” - ἁρπαγμος harpagmos - is found nowhere else in the New Testament, though the verb from which it is derived frequently occurs; Mat_11:12; Mat_13:19; Joh_6:15; Joh_10:12, Joh_10:28-29; Act_8:29; Act_23:10; 2Co_12:2, 2Co_12:4; 1Th_4:17; Jud_1:23; Rev_12:5. The notion of violence, or seizing, or carrying away, enters into the meaning of the word in all these places. The word used here does not properly mean an act of robbery, but the thing robbed - the plunder - das Rauben (Passow), and hence something to be eagerly seized and appropriated. Schleusner; compare Storr, Opuscul. Acade. i. 322, 323. According to this, the meaning of the word here is, something to be seized and eagerly sought, and the sense is, that his being equal with God was not a thing to be anxiously retained. The phrase “thought it not,” means “did not consider;” it was not judged to be a matter of such importance that it could not be dispensed with. The sense is, “he did not eagerly seize and tenaciously hold” as one does who seizes prey or spoil. So Rosenmuller, Schleusner, Bloomfield, Stuart, and others understand it.
To be equal with God - τὸ εἶναι ἶσα Θεῷ to einai isa Theō. That is, the being equal with God he did not consider a thing to be tenaciously retained. The plural neuter form of the word “equal” in Greek - ἶσα isa - is used in accordance with a known rule of the language, thus stated by Buttman: “When an adjective as predicate is separated from its substantive, it often stands in the neuter where the substantive is a masculine or feminine, and in the singular where the substantive is in the plural. That which the predicate expresses is, in this case, considered in general as a thing.” Greek Grammar, section 129, The phrase “equal with God,” or “equal with the gods,” is of frequent occurrence in the Greek Classics; see Wetstein in loc. The very phrase here used occurs in the Odyssey:Τον νῦν ἴσα Θεῷ Ἰθακήσιοι εἰσορόωσι Ton nun isa Theō Ithakēsioi eisoroōsi
Compare Joh_5:18. “Made himself equal with God.” The phrase means one who sustains the same rank, dignity, nature. Now it could not be said of an angel that he was in any sense equal with God; much less could this be said of a mere man. The natural and obvious meaning of the language is, that there was an equality of nature and of rank with God, from which he humbled himself when he became a man. The meaning of the whole verse, according to the interpretation suggested above, is, that Christ, before he became a man, was invested with honor, majesty, and glory, such as was appropriate to God himself; that there was some manifestation or splendor in his existence and mode of being then, which showed that he was equal with God; that he did not consider that that honor, indicating equality with God, was to be retained at all events, and so as to do violence, as it were, to other interests, and to rob the universe of the glory of redemption; and that he was willing, therefore, to forget that, or lay it by for a time, in order that he might redeem the world. There were a glory and majesty which were appropriate to God, and which indicated equality with God - such as none but God could assume. For how could an angel have such glory, or such external splendor in heaven, as to make it proper to say that he was “equal with God?” With what glory could he be invested which would be such as became God only? The “fair” interpretation of this passage, therefore, is, that Christ before his incarnation was equal with God." [end quote]

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Isa 45:21-23 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD(יהוה)? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

~Php_2:10,11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
~Phillipians 2:11 to the glory of God the Father —
the grand end of Christ’s ''Mediatorial office and kingdom [millennial kingdom], which shall cease when this end shall have been fully realized (Joh_5:19-23, Joh_5:30; Joh_17:1, Joh_17:4-7;
1Co_15:24-28).
[Jamieson, Fausset & Brown] Rev 21:1-7

1 Corinthians 15:28 - Adam Clarke -
The Son also himself be subject - When the administration of the kingdom of grace is finally closed; when there shall be no longer any state of probation, and consequently no longer need of a distinction between the kingdom of grace and the kingdom of glory; then the Son, as being man and Messiah, shall cease to exercise any distinct dominion and God be all in all: there remaining no longer any distinction in the persons of the glorious Trinity, as acting any distinct or separate parts in either the kingdom of grace, or the kingdom of glory, and so the one infinite essence shall appear undivided and eternal.

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1Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1 Timothy 3:16 - Adam Clarke -

And, without controversy - Και ὁμολογουμενες· And confessedly, by general consent, it is a thing which no man can or ought to dispute; any phrase of this kind expresses the meaning of the original.
God was manifest in the flesh - Though all this makes a very plain and consistent sense, yet we are perplexed by various readings on the first clause, Θεος εφανερωθη εν σαρκι, God was manifest in the flesh; for instead of Θεος, God, several MSS., versions, and fathers, have ὁς or who or which. And this is generally referred to the word mystery; Great is the mystery of godliness, Which was manifest in the flesh.
The insertion of, Θεος for ὁς, or ὁς for Θεος, may be easily accounted for. In ancient times the Greek was all written in capitals, for the common Greek character is comparatively of modern date. In these early times words of frequent recurrence were written contractedly, thus: for πατηρ, πρ; Θεος, θς; Κυριος, κς· Ιησους, ιης, etc. This is very frequent in the oldest MSS., and is continually recurring in the Codex Bexae, and Codex Alexandrinus. If, therefore, the middle stroke of the Θ, in ΘΣ, happened to be faint, or obliterated, and the dash above not very apparent, both of which I have observed in ancient MSS., then ΘΣ, the contraction for Θεος, God, might be mistaken for ΟΣ, which or who; and vice versa. This appears to have been the case in the Codex Alexandrinus, in this passage. To me there is ample reason to believe that the Codex Alexandrinus originally read ΘΣ, God, in this place; but the stroke becoming faint by length of time and injudicious handling, of which the MS. in this place has had a large proportion, some person has supplied the place, most reprehensibly, with a thick black line. This has destroyed the evidence of this MS., as now it can neither be quoted pro or con, though it is very likely that the person who supplied the ink line, did it from a conscientious conviction that ΘΣ was the original reading of this MS. I examined this MS. about thirty years ago, and this was the conviction that rested then on my mind. I have seen the MS. several times since, and have not changed my opinion.

The enemies of the Deity of Christ have been at as much pains to destroy the evidence afforded by the common reading in support of this doctrine as if this text were the only one by which it can be supported; they must be aware that Joh_1:1, and Joh_1:14, proclaim the same truth; and that in those verses there is no authority to doubt the genuineness of the reading. We read, therefore, God was manifested in the flesh, and I cannot see what good sense can be taken out of, the Gospel was manifested in the flesh; or, the mystery of godliness was manifested in the flesh. After seriously considering this subject in every point of light, I hold with the reading in the commonly received text.


It is well known that almost every Church supposes itself to be The true Church; and some consider themselves the only Church, and deny salvation to all who are not of their communion. The Christian Church is a widely different thing; it is the whole system of Christianity as laid down in the New Testament; it is built on the great foundation of prophets and apostles, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone. It is composed of all who hold the doctrines of Christianity; who acknowledge Jesus as their Teacher, Redeemer, and only Advocate; of all who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength, and their neighbor as themselves; or who are labouring after this conformity to the mind and command of their Creator. It is not known by any particular name; it is not distinguished by any particular form in its mode of worship; it is not exclusively here or there. It is the house of God - it is where God’s Spirit dwells, where his precepts are obeyed, and where pure, unadulterated love to God and man prevails. It is not in the creed or religious confessions of any denomination of Christians; for, as all who hold the truth and live a holy life, acknowledging Jesus alone as the head of the Church and Savior of the world, are members of his mystical body; (and such may be found in all sects and parties); so the Church of Christ may be said to be everywhere, and to be confined nowhere; i.e. in whatever place Christianity is credited and acknowledged. The wicked of all sorts, no matter what their profession may be, and all persecutors of religious people, who differ from them, are without the pale of this Church. Essentially must their spirit and conduct be changed, before the living Head of this spiritual building can acknowledge them as members of the heavenly family.

This text, therefore, will never apply to the Romish Church, till that Church be, both in doctrine and discipline, what the Christian Church should be. When it is the established religion of any country it gives no toleration to those who differ from it; and in Protestant countries its cry for toleration and secular authority is loud and long. I wish its partisans the full and free exercise of their religion, even to its superstitions and nonsense; but how can they expect toleration who give none? The Protestant Church tolerates it fully; it persecutes the Protestants to bonds and death when it has power; which then is the true Church of Christ?""
[end quote]
 
Thank you too! It's true, iron sharpens iron. You're not nobody, God know us all and to Him we are all somebody. Your question has been a learning experience for both of us, it seems God has used us both.

It has been a learning experience for me too. Thanks to both of you.
 
Re: Acknowledging "I AM" essential for Salvation -

John 8:24 --
"I said therefore unto you that ye shall die in your sins:
for if ye believe Not that I G1473 Am G1510 ye shall die in your sins."

I could be mistaken here but I do not think so. Jesus does not seem to be using ἐγώ εἰμι
here as declaration of divine title as he does later on in this chapter and in other places as well. Here, ἐγώ εἰμι simply modifies his claims of the two previous clause - “I am from above...I am not of this world...and unless you believe that I am ((from above and not from this world)) you will die in your sins). Accepting Jesus' claims then of being from heaven is prerequisite to salvation. One cannot deny Jesus' rightful place with everything this implies and be saved.
 
I'm sorry brother, but you are mistaken on this. In the KJV [and in any others] "he" is added to John 8:24, as well as 8:28 though "he" is not in the Greek.


John 8:24 ειπονG3004 V-2AAI-1S ουνG3767 CONJ υμινG4771 P-2DP οτιG3754 CONJ αποθανεισθεG599 V-FDI-2P ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF αμαρτιαιςG266 N-DPF υμωνG4771 P-2GP εανG1437 COND γαρG1063 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N πιστευσητεG4100 V-AAS-2P οτιG3754 CONJ εγω G1473 P-1NS ειμι G1510 V-PAI-1S αποθανεισθεG599 V-FDI-2P ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF αμαρτιαιςG266 N-DPF υμωνG4771 P-2GP


Matthew Henry, A.T. Robertson, Vincent's Word Studies, Jamie, Fausset & Brown, John Gill, R.A. Torrey and most every commentator with Greek exegesis have cross-referenced this verse to every other verse where Jesus spoke "εγω ειμι" as "I AM".
 
This is Yahshua (Jesus) speaking:

John (Yahchanan) 14:28, "You have heard that I told you: I go away, but come again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."

John 5:18 - "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."

Did He break the Sabbath, or was this the pharisees falsely accusing Him? and if He break the Sabbath how is He the spotless Lamb?

No He did not break the Sabbath:

Matt 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it isLawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."

So we can see the accusation of Him "breaking the Sabbath" was false, was the other accusation also false "making Himself equal with God"?

Why did Paul repeat this accusation of the Pharisees when the Savior Himself said, "for the Father is greater than I"

This is Paul speaking:

Philippians 2:6, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God."

John (Yahchanan) 14:28, "...for the Father is greater than I."

Did Paul, an ex-pharisee, have error when he said this, as the Savior Himself says the exact opposite....

And since Paul is in direct opposition to what Yahshua (Jesus) says How do we reconcile this?

Is Yahweh higher than Yahshua?

or

Is Yahshua equal to Yahweh?

Who should we obey if there seems to be a dicrepancy? Yahshua (Jesus) or Paul?

Deuteronomy 18:18-19, "I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brothers, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He will tell them everything I command Him. Whoever will not listen to My words, which He speaks in My Name, I will judge him for it"

"listen" is word #8085 שָׁמַע shama` {shaw-mah'}

Brown-Driver-Briggs (Old Testament Hebrew-English Lexicon)
A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.)

Hebrew Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar) - 1) to hear, listen to, obey

John 5:24, "Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life."

John 12:48, "He who rejects Me, and does not follow My words has One Who judges him. The word that I have spoken, the same will be used to judge him in the last day."

Im not attacking Paul, but Paul was a ex-pharisee who had an extremely high level of education. But why was this warning given?

2 peter 3:15-17, "And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paulalso wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability."


Excellent breakdown. Here's a few more (I voted for Yahshua (Jesus) ("for the Father is greater than I"):

2 Esdras 13:32 And the time shall be when these things shall come to pass, and the signs shall happen which I shewed thee before, and then shall my Son be declared, whom thou sawest as a man ascending.

Isaiah 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Mark 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

John 8:28 Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.



John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

Acts 1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Hebrews 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
1 John 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
 
I'm sorry brother, but you are mistaken on this. In the KJV [and in any others] "he" is added to John 8:24, as well as 8:28 though "he" is not in the Greek.


John 8:24 ειπονG3004 V-2AAI-1S ουνG3767 CONJ υμινG4771 P-2DP οτιG3754 CONJ αποθανεισθεG599 V-FDI-2P ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF αμαρτιαιςG266 N-DPF υμωνG4771 P-2GP εανG1437 COND γαρG1063 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N πιστευσητεG4100 V-AAS-2P οτιG3754 CONJ εγω G1473 P-1NS ειμι G1510 V-PAI-1S αποθανεισθεG599 V-FDI-2P ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF αμαρτιαιςG266 N-DPF υμωνG4771 P-2GP


Matthew Henry, A.T. Robertson, Vincent's Word Studies, Jamie, Fausset & Brown, John Gill, R.A. Torrey and most every commentator with Greek exegesis have cross-referenced this verse to every other verse where Jesus spoke "εγω ειμι" as "I AM".

I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. As you say, the 'he' is not in the Greek and the insertion of the pronoun in the English translations is, I think, both unwarranted and unfortunate. The insertion of the pronoun leads to uncalled for speculation about Jesus use of ἐγώ εἰμι. I as not suggesting that this is not a claim to deity. Obviously it is for he is claiming to be from above. What I am saying is that the use here is not like that in verse 58 where he used ἐγώ εἰμι as a specific divine title. The grammatical construction of verse 24 simply shows that his use of the term here is much the same as in such places as John 6:35, or 9:5. Just as he says, "I am the bread of life" or "I am the light of the world" so also he is saying, I am from above and his charge to his hearers is "unless you believe I am you will die in your sins." Here, εγω ειμι simply modifies his claim to be from above. This is simply the grammatical structure of the Greek.
 
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I think you are misunderstanding what I was saying. As you say, the 'he' is not in the Greek and the insertion of the pronoun in the English translations is, I think, both unwarranted and unfortunate. The insertion of the pronoun leads to uncalled for speculation about Jesus use of ἐγώ εἰμι. I as not suggesting that this is not a claim to deity. Obviously it is for he is claiming to be from above. What I am saying is that the use here is not like that in verse 58 where he used ἐγώ εἰμι as a specific divine title. The grammatical construction of verse 24 simply shows that his use of the term here is much the same as in such places as John 6:35, or 9:5. Just as he says, "I am the bread of life" or "I am the light of the world" so also he is saying, I am from above and his charge to his hearers is "unless you believe I am you will die in your sins." Here, εγω ειμι simply modifies his claim to be from above. This is simply the grammatical structure of the Greek.

I don't feel it necessary to split hairs on this with you, Brother. The fact is whichever way it's seen, whether we see Him declaring that He is "I AM" again here or "from Above" -- for Him to repeat twice "you shall die in your sins" -- it has to be over a great matter of one's Christology & Salvation ... whether you prefer to see it linked to Him stating that HE is From Above or "God" by using "I AM" - in the minds of humans - either way He's saying "I AM" in only a certain way and in certain verses. If enough scholars see it one way and maybe you have found others that point toward another way --- it's still pointing at the Deity of Christ but there is some definite differences in the cross-references you prefer that we can look at.


In Joh 6:35 AndG1161 JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto them,G846 IG1473 amG1510 theG3588 breadG740 of life:G2222 he that comethG2064 toG4314 meG3165 shall neverG3364 hunger;G3983 andG2532 he that believethG4100 onG1519 meG1691 shall neverG3364 G4455 thirst.G1372 [See "the" - a definite article pointing to a description of Himself, which we don't see in John 8:24 ]


Joh 8:24 I saidG2036 thereforeG3767 unto you,G5213 thatG3754 ye shall dieG599 inG1722 yourG5216 sins:G266
forG1063 ifG1437 ye believeG4100 notG3361 thatG3754 I G1473 am G1510 he,
ye shall dieG599 inG1722 yourG5216 sins.G266



In Joh 9:5 As long asG3752 I amG5600 inG1722 theG3588 world,G2889 I amG1510 the lightG5457 of theG3588 world.G2889 [no definite article ['the'] before "light" but He's still describing Himself as something and that is "Light" --
but mainly No "I"
εγω - just "am" - so there's no isolated "I AM" in this verse as there is in 8:24 and 8:58 and 9:9 and 8:28 and 18:6.]

So that's why most all scholars say that John 8:24 is another verse where He is declaring "εγω ειμι" as there's nothing before or following that declaration except the penalty and no other descriptive terms in that verse - Just I AM.
 
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I don't feel it necessary to split hairs on this with you, Brother. The fact is whichever way it's seen, whether we see Him declaring that He is "I AM" again here or "from Above" -- for Him to repeat twice "you shall die in your sins" -- it has to be over a great matter of one's Christology & Salvation ... whether you prefer to see it linked to Him stating that HE is From Above or "God" by using "I AM" - in the minds of humans - either way He's saying "I AM" in only a certain way and in certain verses. If enough scholars see it one way and maybe you have found others that point toward another way --- it's still pointing at the Deity of Christ but there is some definite differences in the cross-references you prefer that we can look at.


In Joh 6:35 AndG1161 JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto them,G846 IG1473 amG1510 theG3588 breadG740 of life:G2222 he that comethG2064 toG4314 meG3165 shall neverG3364 hunger;G3983 andG2532 he that believethG4100 onG1519 meG1691 shall neverG3364 G4455 thirst.G1372 [See "the" - a definite pointing to a description of Himself, which we don't see in John 8:24 ]


Joh 8:24 I saidG2036 thereforeG3767 unto you,G5213 thatG3754 ye shall dieG599 inG1722 yourG5216 sins:G266
forG1063 ifG1437 ye believeG4100 notG3361 thatG3754 I G1473 am G1510 he,
ye shall dieG599 inG1722 yourG5216 sins.G266


In Joh 9:5 As long asG3752 I amG5600 inG1722 theG3588 world,G2889 I amG1510 the lightG5457 of theG3588 world.G2889 [no definite article ['the'] before "light" but He's still describing Himself as something and that is "Light" --
but mainly No "I"
εγω - just "am" - so there's no isolated "I AM" in this verse as there is in 8:24 and 8:58 and 9:9 and 8:28 and 18:6.]
So that's why most all scholars say that John 8:24 is another verse where He is declaring "εγω ειμι" as there's nothing before or following that declaration except the penalty and no other descriptive terms in that verse - Just I AM.

Well, I went back and read my original post on this and I can see why you understood this the way you did. It is of little matter to me if one sees this in the same vein as the "I Am" of verse 58 but the construction just seems to better fit that of the other passages. But, you are right, it is certainly not worth contending over.
 
I'm sorry brother, but you are mistaken on this. In the KJV [and in any others] "he" is added to John 8:24, as well as 8:28 though "he" is not in the Greek.


John 8:24 ειπονG3004 V-2AAI-1S ουνG3767 CONJ υμινG4771 P-2DP οτιG3754 CONJ αποθανεισθεG599 V-FDI-2P ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF αμαρτιαιςG266 N-DPF υμωνG4771 P-2GP εανG1437 COND γαρG1063 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N πιστευσητεG4100 V-AAS-2P οτιG3754 CONJ εγω G1473 P-1NS ειμι G1510 V-PAI-1S αποθανεισθεG599 V-FDI-2P ενG1722 PREP ταιςG3588 T-DPF αμαρτιαιςG266 N-DPF υμωνG4771 P-2GP


Matthew Henry, A.T. Robertson, Vincent's Word Studies, Jamie, Fausset & Brown, John Gill, R.A. Torrey and most every commentator with Greek exegesis have cross-referenced this verse to every other verse where Jesus spoke "εγω ειμι" as "I AM".

Jesus calls Himself I am to the Jews indicating that it was He who spoke with Moses in the burning bush. Through the OT when someone saw God it was the Son.
 
Jesus calls Himself I am to the Jews indicating that it was He who spoke with Moses in the burning bush. Through the OT when someone saw God it was the Son.

Well, they used to call those Theophanies but in the last 10 yrs or so I've noticed that they're now prefering to call them Christophanies because they're afraid of saying that the Three in One are absolutely co-equal, so they gave the 'visits' just over to 'Jesus' and quit calling a visit a Theophany.

Hard to believe but there are folks that can't see Who God was B.C.. I've often wondered where they think 'Jesus' was through the whole O.T. when God was "speaking" and "doing" things. Did He have a little seat behind the Throne but attached to it so that Isaiah or Ezekiel would only see One on that one and only Throne?
And that 'God' would call Him ['Jesus'] out now and then, to make these occasionally visits - like to Abraham & wife & Hagar etc.?
 
Well, they used to call those Theophanies but in the last 10 yrs or so I've noticed that they're now prefering to call them Christophanies because they're afraid of saying that the Three in One are absolutely co-equal, so they gave the 'visits' just over to 'Jesus' and quit calling a visit a Theophany.

Hard to believe but there are folks that can't see Who God was B.C.. I've often wondered where they think 'Jesus' was through the whole O.T. when God was "speaking" and "doing" things. Did He have a little seat behind the Throne but attached to it so that Isaiah or Ezekiel would only see One on that one and only Throne?
And that 'God' would call Him ['Jesus'] out now and then, to make these occasionally visits - like to Abraham & wife & Hagar etc.?

No one has seen the Father, it's always been the Son.

KJV John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Joh 1:18 KJV)

Can you elaborate on what you mean by coequal, in what manner are they equal?
 
You stated "All people have free will, there are no holy Spirit robots that I know of in Scripture. "

Men are given life and brought from darkness into the light. How can a dead person choose God. Man has no part in who is and is not God's chosen people. He choose his before he made the world and paid the price in blood for his people. We are not robots but thankful children of God whom he gave life to thru his spirit, and we are forever thankful for what he alone has done.
Give him ALL the credit, honor, praise and glory due his holy name. Men HATE to hear the truth.......They have NO part in his Salvation plan unless he gives them his spirit, and ONLY he can do this without your chose , help, decision, work ect. IT is God who saves his people.
 
No one has seen the Father, it's always been the Son.

KJV John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (Joh 1:18 KJV)

Can you elaborate on what you mean by coequal, in what manner are they equal?

Hi Brother Butch5. Could I answer with asking you to just read Exodus chpt 3 and look for Names of who Moses was speaking to and the things that God said of Himself during that conversation/visitation? I think it would answer what you asked.

Thanks, Brother. I don't think I can't type anymore today or see to read. Been on and off too many times & too long at times.


LORD Bless!
 
ALL the fulness of God the Father dwells in God the Son. Jesus says that if you've seen Him you've seen the Father. So they are equal in that reguard, but because the fullness of the Father dwells in the Son instead of the fulness of the Son dwelling in the Father, I'd say the Father is greater, but only slightly. This is like if you had two mountains of pebbles of exact size, and one mountain had one more pebble than the other, than the nitty gritty truth is that one is greater, but from an ant's point of view they seem equal.
 
Equal represents compatibility of Nature. This does not mean that each member of the Triadic Unity has the same function.

you cannot change the meaning of equal simply to support a doctrine.....or is it equal sweetner you are talking about..?
[h=2]equal[/h] adjective \ˈē-kwəl\ : the same in number, amount, degree, rank, or quality
: having the same mathematical value
: not changing : the same for each person


Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

some people do not understand numbers....or quantity...one=1 and all= all.......how do you come up with three Gods...?
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
 
You stated "All people have free will, there are no holy Spirit robots that I know of in Scripture. "

Men are given life and brought from darkness into the light. How can a dead person choose God. Man has no part in who is and is not God's chosen people. He choose his before he made the world and paid the price in blood for his people. We are not robots but thankful children of God whom he gave life to thru his spirit, and we are forever thankful for what he alone has done.
Give him ALL the credit, honor, praise and glory due his holy name. Men HATE to hear the truth.......They have NO part in his Salvation plan unless he gives them his spirit, and ONLY he can do this without your chose , help, decision, work ect. IT is God who saves his people.
you do not understand scripture....
faith comes by hearing...
Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
 
you cannot change the meaning of equal simply to support a doctrine.....or is it equal sweetner you are talking about..?
equal

adjective \ˈē-kwəl\ : the same in number, amount, degree, rank, or quality
: having the same mathematical value
: not changing : the same for each person


Matthew 28:18
And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Philippians 2:6
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

some people do not understand numbers....or quantity...one=1 and all= all.......how do you come up with three Gods...?
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

I did not change the definition. You just do not understand what I am talking about. ἴσα in Phi. 2:6 simply relates to intrinsic nature of his being. He is equally God in number, amount, degree, rank, and quality possessing all of the same characteristics and attributes as the Father and to the same degree. The only thing that differs is their respective functions within the Triadic Unity. Look at the grammar of the text. Empty is the verb that defines the action. Equal is an adjective that defines his nature. Equality is a noun that tells what was emptied out. This is not a passive action. This is self-actuating. No one is doing this to him. He is the one who does the emptying. What he empties out of himself is both equality with God and divine nature. He must possess these qualities intrinsically in order to empty them out of himself.
 
I did not change the definition. You just do not understand what I am talking about. ἴσα in Phi. 2:6 simply relates to intrinsic nature of his being. He is equally God in number, amount, degree, rank, and quality possessing all of the same characteristics and attributes as the Father and to the same degree. The only thing that differs is their respective functions within the Triadic Unity. Look at the grammar of the text. Empty is the verb that defines the action. Equal is an adjective that defines his nature. Equality is a noun that tells what was emptied out. This is not a passive action. This is self-actuating. No one is doing this to him. He is the one who does the emptying. What he empties out of himself is both equality with God and divine nature. He must possess these qualities intrinsically in order to empty them out of himself.

This statement is not true:

"He is equally God in number, amount, degree, rank, and quality possessing all of the same characteristics and attributes as the Father and to the same degree"

The Father gives Yahshua His power and knows things Yahshua does not know.....

"And Yahshua came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth."

"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
"