That is a silly question....you are asking what is the difference between a believer and a non believer....who both give.....one believes in God the other does not....are you saying a christian should not give because unbelievers give...or Christians should only give spiritual food and not physical needs?...since you are become spiritual do you still eat and wear clothes....or do you no longer have those needs?
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H
Hi Hiz,
Hope you don't mind my joining in,
Let's read more of 2Pet 3 for context,
2Pet 3:14-18
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable (legalists following lukewarm doctrines mixing works of the law, with grace) wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Now what should we do without spot, blameless?
We believe on Jesus.
1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (John 3:16), to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession (confessed Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9) in the presence of many witnesses.
I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,that you keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing.
I note you falsely accuse Mitspa of preaching a lawless doctrine.
We under grace are under a different law to legalists. Christians are under the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Legalists however, are under the law of sin and death, written and engraved in stone, 2Cor 3:7-11.
And whatever this law says it says to them as they are under it, Rom 3:19.
These legalists fail to keep the law perfectly and thus are guilty of all the law, James 2:10.
Thus we see it's the legalists who are the lawless ones. They are guilty of all the law.
Hope you don't mind my joining in,
Let's read more of 2Pet 3 for context,
2Pet 3:14-18
Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable (legalists following lukewarm doctrines mixing works of the law, with grace) wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.
Now what should we do without spot, blameless?
We believe on Jesus.
1Tim 6:12-14
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life (John 3:16), to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession (confessed Jesus with your mouth, Rom 10:9) in the presence of many witnesses.
I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate,that you keep this commandment (to believe on Jesus) without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing.
I note you falsely accuse Mitspa of preaching a lawless doctrine.
We under grace are under a different law to legalists. Christians are under the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus.
Legalists however, are under the law of sin and death, written and engraved in stone, 2Cor 3:7-11.
And whatever this law says it says to them as they are under it, Rom 3:19.
These legalists fail to keep the law perfectly and thus are guilty of all the law, James 2:10.
Thus we see it's the legalists who are the lawless ones. They are guilty of all the law.
good point. remember that God says in His Word that those outside ekklesia, outside His people, HE judges. and some of those , who OBEY torah even though they DON'T HAVE TORAH, do what is right and He sees this,
while
those He called to be His people, people who "SAY" that they believe HIM, who have the TORAH, but don't obey His Instructions,
are found to be not in Him..... so, and as, God sees everything and knows everything there is to know, it's best to turn to God, and not to men...
diplomats, emissaries, to foreign countries, while in those countries, are not subject to jail time or(usually?) the death penalty either, if they break the laws - even murder (which happens routinely,btw) .........
but, they ARE subject to being sent away, exiled, banished.
God knows perfectly who are His children, and who are not His children. He knows His sheep, .... it's not like He gets anything mixed up or confused....
He disciplines, often severely, His children. OT and NT. No question. He disciplines (trains) His children, for their good, in the best possible way - as any good father does, so they will live right lives, and not corrupt; as children of LIGHT (get it? "L * I * G * H * T - LIGHT .... truth and right-ruling and just and walking uprightly- against such there is no law).....
so , there remains still a resurrection. some to eternal life, and some to destruction. Don't forget, all through Scripture, it is God who judges everything a person does(it is all written down); and
God who says what is important, and what is not important. God who says, Listen to My Son, Yahshua - HE will give you life, if you let Him.
But if you settle back into the 'old way' , before repentance, before turning to God for forgiveness,
don't think at all that God will be pleased.
while
those He called to be His people, people who "SAY" that they believe HIM, who have the TORAH, but don't obey His Instructions,
are found to be not in Him..... so, and as, God sees everything and knows everything there is to know, it's best to turn to God, and not to men...
diplomats, emissaries, to foreign countries, while in those countries, are not subject to jail time or(usually?) the death penalty either, if they break the laws - even murder (which happens routinely,btw) .........
but, they ARE subject to being sent away, exiled, banished.
God knows perfectly who are His children, and who are not His children. He knows His sheep, .... it's not like He gets anything mixed up or confused....
He disciplines, often severely, His children. OT and NT. No question. He disciplines (trains) His children, for their good, in the best possible way - as any good father does, so they will live right lives, and not corrupt; as children of LIGHT (get it? "L * I * G * H * T - LIGHT .... truth and right-ruling and just and walking uprightly- against such there is no law).....
so , there remains still a resurrection. some to eternal life, and some to destruction. Don't forget, all through Scripture, it is God who judges everything a person does(it is all written down); and
God who says what is important, and what is not important. God who says, Listen to My Son, Yahshua - HE will give you life, if you let Him.
But if you settle back into the 'old way' , before repentance, before turning to God for forgiveness,
don't think at all that God will be pleased.
M
So your agreeing that the law includes all the law of Moses? The Ten and all? You tried to say something different before as if somehow the law was divided into parts.....what are you saying exactly? I also find it odd how some of you just seem to want to lecture others in godliness when you don't even seem to have a understanding of the covenant your under? Please lets just debate the issue of the law and what standard you keep, not what you want others to keep.
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
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H
Considering that you admit you fail to keep the law then we can see from this that you do not have the law written on your heart as you preach.
However, what does scripture say?
Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man (Christ in us).
Christ is in our heart (Eph 3:17) and it's Christ in us that God sees. Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
It's Christ, our inward man, who delights in the law of God. And he keeps it perfectly.
Legalists, however, reject this. Like doubting Thomas, they demand physical proof of physical perfection (or some ambiguous near enough perfection). for the legalists, their old flesh man still lives. It was never crucified with Christ, therefore their sin remains.
But for Christians, however, our old man is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Therefore our righteousness/salvation is not judged by works of the law.
However, what does scripture say?
Rom 7:22
For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man (Christ in us).
Christ is in our heart (Eph 3:17) and it's Christ in us that God sees. Our life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
It's Christ, our inward man, who delights in the law of God. And he keeps it perfectly.
Legalists, however, reject this. Like doubting Thomas, they demand physical proof of physical perfection (or some ambiguous near enough perfection). for the legalists, their old flesh man still lives. It was never crucified with Christ, therefore their sin remains.
But for Christians, however, our old man is already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Therefore our righteousness/salvation is not judged by works of the law.
H
Again you are missing the point.
It's the legalists who like to use Matt 25 about the sheep verses goats, thinking it's all about physical behavior that determines whether one is saved or not.
My point is that whilst both Christians AND non-Christians are helping the physically needy, the Christians stand out as believers in that they preach the gospel to the SPIRITUALLY hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, in prison, and strangers (as I confirmed all from scripture in my earlier post).
Legalists, however, preach righteousness by works of the law, which does nothing to help the SPIRITUALLY needy. It's like saying to the hungry and naked "be warmed and filled" but then not giving them anything to help their spiritual neediness.
Legalists are the goats.
Anyway folks, it's late night here in Australia so will catch up again tomorrow.
It's the legalists who like to use Matt 25 about the sheep verses goats, thinking it's all about physical behavior that determines whether one is saved or not.
My point is that whilst both Christians AND non-Christians are helping the physically needy, the Christians stand out as believers in that they preach the gospel to the SPIRITUALLY hungry, thirsty, naked, sick, in prison, and strangers (as I confirmed all from scripture in my earlier post).
Legalists, however, preach righteousness by works of the law, which does nothing to help the SPIRITUALLY needy. It's like saying to the hungry and naked "be warmed and filled" but then not giving them anything to help their spiritual neediness.
Legalists are the goats.
Anyway folks, it's late night here in Australia so will catch up again tomorrow.
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K
The things you two say continue to show that you do not pay attention nor actually read what others said.
If you did you would not make up such ridiculous statements and questions toward your fellow brothers and sisters. And be the fact that you two constantly are reading more into what somebody has said and trying to pose it as fact, how much more do we know that you do the exact same thing with scripture. Reading more into what is not there, showing an unstable or unlearned mind.
Showing constantly that you do not know and understand the difference of the written ordinances of the Mosaic laws that I do not keep nor follow as it does not apply to us under the new covenant of grace, and the moral laws of God that is written on our hearts that the Holy Spirit guides us and helps us to walk in.
You two constantly want to try and twist scripture to say that believers can not be charged/imputed by sin again which is not biblical. And Romans does not say that as you try to make it, as it is referring to we are not to bring a charge against another but to edify and help them to turn from that sin they are committing.
A believer becomes impure by sin if they do not repent, and/or confess it to be forgiven of it as 1 John says. Only after confessing that sin, does our Lord who is just forgive you of it and cleanse you from that unrighteousness.
If you feel you still struggle with keeping the 10 commandments, and the 2 greatest commandments that the Lord gave then you need to pray and ask the Holy Spirit keep working in you to make you stronger in those areas you are weak. And when it comes to sin pray for forgiveness of that sin when you back slide, for by doing that you show love, honor, and respect to the Lord our God for that trespass against Him.
If you believe that sin can not be imputed/charged to a believer again then everybody who believes is saved, which the bible clearly says is not the case. You can not believe and continue in a willful sin, rather that sin be lies, adultery, murder, covetousness, homosexuality, and so on....
The bible especially repeated over and over again by Paul says you can not, and if sin can not be imputed/charged to a believer once again I would say why then does Paul warn Timothy that he can become impure from sin again. Because it can, and sin is anything you put before God.
Repent, and confess your sins so that they can be forgiven and covered by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
And then that is how you become cleansed of all unrighteousness, and remain pure......
K
This is the main part of how we are to walk under the new covenant of grace:
"Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit given by God to those who obey. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation, so if we do still sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. That if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
( Matthew 28:19, Mark 16:16, Luke 13:3, Acts 2:38, Acts 5:32, Romans 10:10, 1 John 1:9, 2:1 )
Psalm 19:12-13 (prayer for unknown sins committed)
Psalm 51:12-14 (prayer for restoring salvation)
H
I am afraid of you who condemn legalism and promote a law-less faith only salvation. All the Bible condemns a non law keeping, false faith, in word only, with out keeping the holy law of God. Rom.14&15 tells us to accept the weak brother who is a legalist and can not eat certain things or do certain things. These things have nothing to do with the moral LAW of God, which the Christian must keep in letter and in spirit. And the Bible declares that these neutral things are ok for the Christian to do or not to do, It is weak Christian who can not do a neutral things, under the control of the Spirit of God , so he does every thing in moderation and in God's time. The eating of meat is good ,if in moderation. the drinking of an alcohol drink is good ,if done in the control of the Spirit. If you don't accept this you are a legalist and will not accept God's wisdom on the matter. Paul tells us to accept the "legalist", weak in faith, but truly a faith person, trusting in the blood of Jesus not in his good works, seeking to obey the MORAL laws of God in Letter and spirit, by the Spirit's power and the new heart in us. You "faith only" persons are anti laws and are not of GOD, not born of GOD. In Rom.2 Paul condemn the "faith only" Jew who says he believe in God, but lives in the flesh, live a wicked life of fornication etc. And Paul praises the Born Again Gentile and Jew, Rom.2:13,15,29-30, who keeps the moral laws of God and shows a true faith in Christ, GOD, and shows a truly born again, circumcised heart. The truly born again one is not a lawless one, he loves to obey God's moral laws and is able to decern the proper use of neutral things ,as wine, pork etc. . Jh. 3:16-21 teaches us that one can not be a born of God person and not do "good deeds". The law less christian is not a true Christian. Love to all, Hoffco
M
Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith:
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Its only by returning to the law of moses that a believer can lose salvation first given in grace. "ye have fallen from grace" ye are cut-off from Christ , you who seek to be justified by the law.
11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
12 And the law is not of faith:
Ro 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 ¶ What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Its only by returning to the law of moses that a believer can lose salvation first given in grace. "ye have fallen from grace" ye are cut-off from Christ , you who seek to be justified by the law.
K
You are still stuck on that about the Galatians.
That was just their personal failure in sin that Paul was pointing out to them that caused them to fall from grace, trying to be justified by the law is not the only sin that causes somebody to fall from grace.
All willful sins that are not repented and confessed of lead people to fall from grace, for all sin is enmity to God.
Romans 8:7
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
A carnal mind is one that thinks they can walk in God's moral laws, and still continue to sin without repentance and confession of them. All sin is unrighteousness, you are only cleansed from that unrighteousness through confessing your sins. Then He being just will forgive you of those sins.
H
It is ONLY as we "walk in the light" of God's Holy Moral laws and "confess our sins" when, in the body or in heart brake the letter or the spirit of the law ,then we are forgive our sins against, braking the MORAL laws of God, then we are forgiven of our sins. 1Jh.1:7-10 Sin is the braking of the moral laws of God, and and doing certain, neutral things, with out the faith to do so, the weak in faith Christian sins if they drink wine with out the faith to do so. If one does not believe what God says is true, then they will not believe that the drinking of wine ,in moderation, is holy. And they call God a liar. The "carnal mind" can not walk, truly walk, in the moral laws of God. But, when we have laws, rules in our society and families, that promote the keeping of the moral laws of God we have outward conformity to the letter of the laws, but not the conformity to the spirit of the law, Yet, we will still have a lawful, good society, as in 1900-1960, . but today we have no morals in society, and little in the churches; Because the churches have pushed, "faith only" to the death of a godiness in society. As the church goes, so goes the society. Judgment starts in the churches. Love to all, Hoffco