Can you be out of Fellowship with God and still be Saved?

[Jason0047]

The only testimony I'm interested in is the testimony of the word of God. The Holy Spirit does not teach a critical spirit as you display. You have a bitterness of soul that causes you to accuse the brethren. Other believers do not have to live up to your standards. You may believe that you have derived them from the scriptures but your crusade is going to do far more damage than edification.

I suggest that you leave your dream world where you are the greatest legend in the kingdom and join the real world. The body of Christ which is the church is filled with imperfect people. There are people at all stages of growth and maturity in the body. There are also many pretenders who say they are in the body. God will sort them all out. God takes care of His children and God will bring them to maturity at different times and at different rates.

Be not deceived God is not mocked. Those who scatter and destroy the sheep will account for their actions to the Great Shepherd. Jesus told Peter to feed the sheep not beat them with a stick.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

You believe nothing can separate you in being believer from Christ; Not even sin.

Am I correct?

Well, if this is the case, then you are condoning a license for immortality that Jude 1:4 NIV talks about.

If you don't believe you can sin and still be saved, I will be happy to apologize.

Love, blessings, and peace be unto you.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

You believe nothing can separate you in being believer from Christ; Not even sin.

Am I correct?

Well, if this is the case, then you are condoning a license for immortality that Jude 1:4 NIV talks about.

If you don't believe you can sin and still be saved, I will be happy to apologize.

Love, blessings, and peace be unto you.

You can't use Jude 1:4 in this case. Jude 1:4 is speaking about ungodly men turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you believe in the only begotten Son of God and if you have confessed Jesus as Lord then obviously you have not denied the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? God that justifieth?
Who is he that condemneth? Christ that died yea rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us?
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, or sword?
For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8

 

[Jason0047]

I did answer your questions with one answer: Let me just say - I think you are going to be shocked by who is in standing beside you in heaven, that is if you are have done enough good works to maintain your salvation to get there yourself.

Repentance and not doing evil things (Such as murder, hate, lust, idolatry, etc.) are not works. I am against Works Salvationism. I am saved right here and right now at this very second by God's grace without the deeds of the Law. I don't believe baptism saves or speaking in tongues saves. However, if you think folks can sin and be saved, then you haven't truly understood what Paul meant when he said the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Christ's judgment in Matthew 7 will be those who work iniquity (folks who think they can sin and be saved) and those who think they could earn their salvation (those who said they had done many wonderful works).

 

[newbirth]

You can't use Jude 1:4 in this case. Jude 1:4 is speaking about ungodly men turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you believe in the only begotten Son of God and if you have confessed Jesus as Lord then obviously you have not denied the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? God that justifieth?
Who is he that condemneth? Christ that died yea rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us?
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, or sword?
For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8

but there are principles to being elect of which obedience is one...one cannot be disobedient and consider himself elect....
1 Peter 1:2
Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said

satan and all the demons are children of God, They are fallen children of God. Even the unsaved are children of God. Every Spirit that is in a person is a child of God, for we come out of God and from Him. The antichrist will perform miracles and do many amazing things does not mean he will inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. So yes it is possible to have the witness of the spirit that they are a child of God, because all are children of God. Just because someone has the witness of the Spirit does not mean they are automatically going to inherit the Kingdom of Heaven. The Scriptures teach that we are grafted in, but to be careful that we are not removed from the tree like the Jews were.

^i^

Dave, I do not know where you have come to have this understanding

And if i told you where it came from you would not believe me.

Dave, I do not know where you have come to have this understanding, but it is all wrong and so contrary to what we are taught by the Spirit.

What are you taught by the Spirit? And how is that contrary to what i have said?

If you are referring to the fallen angels as the sons of God and apply the witness of the Spirit that we have within as a child of God as being the same, it is not the same.

If you would read the article called The Meaning of Life, and The Spirit Within. You would see that we are all the same. The Spirit that is in you is the same that is in a demon. Every single soul that has life on this planet use to be in Heaven prior to the Earth ever being created. Lucifer was a Spirit and you were there as well as a Spirit. You were not one of the Angels that rebelled against God, because if you were you would be a demon and not inside the flesh that you are now in. We are all children of God, that is to say God created all of us, Lucifer, demons, angels, us. Lucifer and his followers have already been judged, thus are considered fallen. The antichrist will be able to heal people, is that not a witness of the Spirit, to be able to heal? Yes it is. Does that mean because he exhibits the witness of the Spirit that he is going to go to Heaven? No it does not.

The angels were no created in the image of God as man was

Man was created in OUR image as it is written. Jesus before the Earth ever was, had an image (human looking, head, arms, midsection, legs, feet, and hands) The angels all looked human as well. We are made in THEIR image, head, arms, midsection, legs, feet, and hands etc) We are made in the image of God, and God looks human (Jesus Christ)

The angels were no created in the image of God as man was and those who are in unbelief are children of disobedience and not children of God.

Children of who? You say the children of disobedience are not the children of God, then whose children are they? the devils? Does the devil have children? Now granted the children of God can become the children of the devil by following him and his ways, that is True. But Every Spirit is a child of God, that is to say, God created every spirit, whether good or evil, He is still the Father of them all, the devil included. The devil has followers not because they are his creation, but because they chose to follow him. satan did not create them. God created Lucifer, God created the angels who chose to follow Lucifer. All are creations of Jesus Christ. All children of God

There is no mention in scripture that children of God refers to anyone or group other than those who God has chose and given His righteousness to.

True, But that does not change the Truth that i said above. Satan and all his followers at one time were indeed the children of the Living God. Good, Holy, and Pure. They rebelled against God and were cast out of Heaven, They are still children of God, because God made them, they are corrupt, evil, and wicked children of God.

^i^

 

[newbirth]

Repentance and not doing evil things (Such as murder, hate, lust, idolatry, etc.) are not works. I am against Works Salvationism. I am saved right here and right now at this very second by God's grace without the deeds of the Law. I don't believe baptism saves or speaking in tongues saves. However, if you think folks can sin and be saved, then you haven't truly understood what Paul meant when he said the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Christ's judgment in Matthew 7 will be those who work iniquity (folks who think they can sin and be saved) and those who think they could earn their salvation (those who said they had done many wonderful works).

if the scripture says baptism saves and you don't believe it ...then you don't believe scripture...
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Repentance and not doing evil things (Such as murder, hate, lust, idolatry, etc.) are not works. I am against Works Salvationism. I am saved right here and right now at this very second by God's grace without the deeds of the Law. I don't believe baptism saves or speaking in tongues saves. However, if you think folks can sin and be saved, then you haven't truly understood what Paul meant when he said the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God. Christ's judgment in Matthew 7 will be those who work iniquity (folks who think they can sin and be saved) and those who think they could earn their salvation (those who said they had done many wonderful works).

You believe that works maintain your salvation . . .

the unrighteous will not inherit the Kingdom of God - We do not make ourselves righteous - our faith in Christ is what gives us righteousness - Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus : Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God, To declare at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Romans 3
To wit God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; . . . . 2 Cor. 5:19

 

[DiscipleDave]

every one of us will stand before God on Judgement Day and the Book of Remembrance will be opened and each of us, me included will have to give account how we responded in each one of our posts, whether in love or lack of love towards the other.

^i^

 

[notuptome]

You believe nothing can separate you in being believer from Christ; Not even sin.

Am I correct?

Well, if this is the case, then you are condoning a license for immortality that Jude 1:4 NIV talks about.

If you don't believe you can sin and still be saved, I will be happy to apologize.

Love, blessings, and peace be unto you.

I know for a fact that you cannot judge such things. I can tell you that liberty in Christ is not a license to sin.

Jesus Himself said nothing could separate us from Him. Romans 8

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

every one of us will stand before God on Judgement Day and the Book of Remembrance will be opened and each of us, me included will have to give account how we responded in each one of our posts, whether in love or lack of love towards the other.

^i^

All those who stand before the great white throne judgment are lost souls. Those who are judged out of the books are lost.

The redeemed stand before the judgment seat of Christ and their works are tried in the fire. The redeemed are passed from judgment into eternal life. Christ has taken our place in the judgment and has full satisfied our penalty for sin.

For the cause of Crist
Roger

 

[Jason0047]

You can't use Jude 1:4 in this case. Jude 1:4 is speaking about ungodly men turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

If you believe in the only begotten Son of God and if you have confessed Jesus as Lord then obviously you have not denied the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? God that justifieth?
Who is he that condemneth? Christ that died yea rather that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us?
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? tribulation, distress, persecution, famine, nakedness, peril, or sword?
For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8

Very clever. But actually Jude 1:4 NIV is saying that because they have a license for immorality, they are denying the Lord. It's says they have TURNED THE GRACE OF OUR GOD into a license for immortality. They have slipped in unnoticed. Read the chapter. Anyways, they acknowledge the grace of God (Christ), but they deny him with their immoral lifestyle. 2 Peter chapter 2 identifies these false believers, as well. For they have eyes full of adultery, and cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).

 

[Powemm]

I can only share what god has already done for me.... Im not sure where I was when I began in this life..thank God he did.. taken from my home at age three,, put into foster care.. beaten, broken arm, bruised , hair ripped out among ither things, i was then adopted at the age of five, I didnt know how to play .. first day of kindergaden I went in and sat in the corner with my book bag while everyone else sat in their seats.. I do know this...
I was lost from the start..but god was continuously drawing me closer to him so that when he did call me directly by name... I knew without a doubt it was Him. His call to me was in His timing.. although I shouted out to Him many.. I knew without a doubt "who" was calling me when He did.. looking back he revealed every single place he was so close I was unaware.. ") we may not always be in perfect relationship with him.. thankfully he is all seeing, all knowing, all hearing and knows exactly where each of His children are...as nothing is hidden from Him

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Very clever. But actually Jude 1:4 NIV is saying that because they have a license for immorality, they are denying the Lord. It's says they have TURNED THE GRACE OF OUR GOD into a license for immortality. They have slipped in unnoticed. Read the chapter. Anyways, they acknowledge the grace of God (Christ), but they deny him with their immoral lifestyle. 2 Peter chapter 2 identifies these false believers, as well. For they have eyes full of adultery, and cannot cease from sin (2 Peter 2:1, 14).

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ and called: (3) . . the common salvation . . contend for the faith [common salvation] (4) For there are certain men crept in unawares who were before of old ordained to this condemnation [John 3:18] ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . (12-15) But these, as brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery [idolatry v15] and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam . . .who loved the wages of unrighteousness. . . .
Doesn't say that these ever knew God nor his Son . . . I hope you are not saying that any of us on this thread are full of idolatry and teaching others to be idolatrous - who are you to condemn in that manner?

But going back to Jude - especially Jude 1 and the word "preserved" [in Jesus Christ]. Interesting . . . We are sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ.

preserved: tereo [perfect tense - now, passive voice - subject being acted upon; participle - progressive (moving forward, happening or developing over a period of time)] to attend to carefully, take care of; to guard; metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is; to observe; to reserve: to undergo something

Also used: John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we. . . . (12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. . . (20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave

every one of us will stand before God on Judgement Day and the Book of Remembrance will be opened and each of us, me included will have to give account how we responded in each one of our posts, whether in love or lack of love towards the other.

All those who stand before the great white throne judgment are lost souls. Those who are judged out of the books are lost.

The redeemed stand before the judgment seat of Christ and their works are tried in the fire. The redeemed are passed from judgment into eternal life. Christ has taken our place in the judgment and has full satisfied our penalty for sin.

For the cause of Crist
Roger

There are two Judgement Days, the Judgment Day i am referring to is the first one.

The First Judgement Day is the day that Christ Returns and takes the few that are Truly Saved, They have been judged worthy by the Lamb and are taken to be with Him. The rest who were not taken were judged not worthy, NOT Saved, Not written in the Book of Life.

The Second Judgment Day, is the Great White Throne Judgment which happens at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ on Earth, when every wicked person is shown their wickedness, even satan and his demons will be judged at this Second Judgement Day. This day is when satan and his followers (demons) and all those who chose to deny Christ and to continue to live in sins will be cast into the lake of fire for ever and ever.

Two different Judgement Days.

^i^

 

[Jason0047]

if the scripture says baptism saves and you don't believe it ...then you don't believe scripture...
1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

You are not even reading what I had written. You are not even reading what the passage says in it's entirety. You can't see it because you don't want to see it. But I bolded it just in case you might want to read it. So how does baptism save us? Well, the passage says not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. This is sin. See 2 Corinthians 7:1. Then in what we way are we saved? As an answer of a good conscience toward God.

 

[newbirth]

You are not even reading what I had written. You are not even reading what the passage says in it's entirety. You can't see it because you don't want to see it. But I bolded it just in case you might want to read it. So how does baptism save us? Well, the passage says not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh. This is sin. See 2 Corinthians 7:1. Then in what we way are we saved? As an answer of a good conscience toward God.

how can you have a good conscience toward God with sin???? it does not make sense....so that filth is not referring to sin but dirt ....the only way one can have a good conscience toward God is if there is no sin....so baptism is not a washing of the flesh(bath) but God recognises it as the washing away of sins...washing of regeneration..you are contending that one can have a good conscience toward God without the removal of sin...if this is so then all men can have a good conscience toward God...how else are we to enter into the kingdom????it is only without sin we can approach the throne of grace...

 

[Jason0047]

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ and called: (3) . . the common salvation . . contend for the faith [common salvation] (4) For there are certain men crept in unawares who were before of old ordained to this condemnation [John 3:18] ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and [thereby] denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. . . (12-15) But these, as brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption; And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery [idolatry v15] and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam . . .who loved the wages of unrighteousness. . . . Doesn't say that these ever knew God nor his Son . . . I hope you are not saying that any of us on this thread are full of idolatry and teaching others to be idolatrous - who are you to condemn in that manner?

But going back to Jude - especially Jude 1 and the word "preserved" [in Jesus Christ]. Interesting . . . We are sanctified by God the Father and preserved in Jesus Christ.

preserved: tereo [perfect tense - now, passive voice - subject being acted upon; participle - progressive (moving forward, happening or developing over a period of time)] to attend to carefully, take care of; to guard; metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is; to observe; to reserve: to undergo something

Also used: John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one as we. . . . (12) While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (15) I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. . . (20) Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word

#1. They crept in unaware.

Notice that I highlighted that certain men had crept in unawares in Jude. In 2 Peter 2 we see that they feast with us. Meaning, they are hidden believers amongst us (Who appear to believe in many ways like us but are not like us). If they denies the Lord openly, they would be detected by the true believer.

#2. They have denied the Lord that bought them.

OSAS proponents that think they can sin and still be saved deny the Lord's words and teachings in the gospels. Jesus said repent. But many of them do not believe that is necessary. They are denying the Lord that bought them. They are denying the Lord as He is described in the Scriptures (And don't even know it). Note: This is not all OSAS proponents. Only those OSAS proponents who think they can sin and still be saved.

#3. They have forsaken the right way and gone astray like Balaam.

Balaam was in favor with God for a brief time, but he forsaken the right way and had gone astray. He loved unrighteousness. This is the OSAS proponent who does not want to give up their lifestyle of sin. They love unrighteousness. Granted, I am not talking about every OSAS proponent. OSAS Lite proponents believe you need to live holy or you never knew the Lord to begin with. But there are many OSAS proponents who think they can sin and still be saved that used to believe the correct way (Whereby at one time they thought they had to confess their sins and forsake them so as to be saved).

Besides, even if you think this group of false teachers was classified as being different because they denied the Lord, don't you think having a license for immorality and or not ceasing from sin should be something that we as believers should be on the look out for? In other words, it doesn't make sense that false teachers have this quality in addtion to true believers.

 

[Jason0047]

how can you have a good conscience toward God with sin???? it does not make sense....so that filth is not referring to sin but dirt ....the only way one can have a good conscience toward God is if there is no sin....so baptism is not a washing of the flesh(bath) but God recognises it as the washing away of sins...washing of regeneration..you are contending that one can have a good conscience toward God without the removal of sin...if this is so then all men can have a good conscience toward God...how else are we to enter into the kingdom????it is only without sin we can approach the throne of grace...

One who is baptized professes to have a good conscience toward God, with his sins forgiven. If that is not true, he has no right to be baptized and baptism is a lie and an empty pretense. Baptism is only for saved people, the answer of a conscience that is already cleansed and forgiven.

1 Peter 3:21 WEB, NLT

(a) "This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, (b) but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."​

One is saved or set apart to answer the call in making a public declaration that one's conscience has been already cleaned by God. It is a public testimony of what God has done for you.

It doesn't make any sense to say that you have been saved from being smelly or dirty. What does physically being cleansed have to do with anything spiritual?

 

[Jason0047]

One who is baptized professes to have a good conscience toward God, with his sins forgiven. If that is not true, he has no right to be baptized and baptism is a lie and an empty pretense. Baptism is only for saved people, the answer of a conscience that is already cleansed and forgiven.

1 Peter 3:21 WEB, NLT

(a) "This is a symbol of baptism, which now saves you--not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, (b) but as a response to God from a clean conscience. It is effective because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ."​

One is saved or set apart to answer the call in making a public declaration that one's conscience has been already cleaned by God. It is a public testimony of what God has done for you.

It doesn't make any sense to say that you have been saved from being smelly or dirty. What does physically being cleansed have to do with anything spiritual?

In other words, one is saved, or set apart so as to make a pledge or public declaration that one's conscience has been cleansed already because their sins have been forgiven when they repented and accepted the Lord as His Savior.

 

[Jason0047]

#1. They crept in unaware.

Notice that I highlighted that certain men had crept in unawares in Jude. In 2 Peter 2 we see that they feast with us. Meaning, they are hidden believers amongst us (Who appear to believe in many ways like us but are not like us). If they denies the Lord openly, they would be detected by the true believer.

#2. They have denied the Lord that bought them.

OSAS proponents that think they can sin and still be saved deny the Lord's words and teachings in the gospels. Jesus said repent. But many of them do not believe that is necessary. They are denying the Lord that bought them. They are denying the Lord as He is described in the Scriptures (And don't even know it). Note: This is not all OSAS proponents. Only those OSAS proponents who think they can sin and still be saved.

#3. They have forsaken the right way and gone astray like Balaam.

Balaam was in favor with God for a brief time, but he forsaken the right way and had gone astray. He loved unrighteousness. This is the OSAS proponent who does not want to give up their lifestyle of sin. They love unrighteousness. Granted, I am not talking about every OSAS proponent. OSAS Lite proponents believe you need to live holy or you never knew the Lord to begin with. But there are many OSAS proponents who think they can sin and still be saved that used to believe the correct way (Whereby at one time they thought they had to confess their sins and forsake them so as to be saved).

Besides, even if you think this group of false teachers was classified as being different because they denied the Lord, don't you think having a license for immorality and or not ceasing from sin should be something that we as believers should be on the look out for? In other words, it doesn't make sense that false teachers have this quality in addtion to true believers.

For you have to remember, that in the "Condemnation" mentioned in John 3:19-20, those who did not come to the Light, did not do so because they loved the darkness of their own evil deeds. That is why the OSAS proponent who believes they can sin and still be saved has denied the Lord that bought them. They are still under the "Condemnation"; And have not come to the Light because they love the darkness of their own evil deeds.

Side Note:

Oh, and as I said before, not all OSAS proponents believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine. OSAS Lite proponents believe in liviing holy for the Lord otherwise you never knew God.