Who is Babylon the Great Harlot?

[dcontroversal]

I will study those chapters, and try to connect them to Amerca,
but knowing psalm 137, I don't see a connection in that one.
I'll get back to you after reading the rest of these carefully.

Some of the characteristics found....

She mounts her defenses to the utmost HEAVENS
She is the hammer of the whole earth militarily
She is the melting pot of the world
She is in existence when Israel becomes a Nation and can be used of God to judge the nations around her
She is the chief producing nation and at one time was a golden cup in the hand of the Lord
She switches to the chief consuming nation
She knew God in truth and DEPARTED
She is known as rebels in BIRTH and in JUDGMNENT
She could have been healed but would not change course
Her people are as fat as heifers and bellow as bulls
Etc.

 

[Sophia]

The daughter (prodigy) of Babylon<---confusion....the HINDERMOST of the NATIONS.....spreads CONFUSION...worship God as you please!

From what I know of social history (which is limited and highly biased I am sure) the vast majority of religious persons in the US are conservative in their religious views, with a small fringe minority of universalists. The vast majority of universalists are non-Christian, and generally associate themselves with one of several eastern mystic or new age groups, and often times as agnostics or even atheists.
Universalism is more widespread in Europe (with the vast majority of Europeans claiming to be universalists), and the parts of American culture swayed in that direction come from the European liberal ideology that has crept in since FDR preached and implemented it. It's not really an American thing, even though we caught some of the disease.

 

[dcontroversal]

From what I know of social history (which is limited and highly biased I am sure) the vast majority of religious persons in the US are conservative in their religious views, with a small fringe minority of universalists. The vast majority of universalists are non-Christian, and generally associate themselves with one of several eastern mystic or new age groups, and often times as agnostics or even atheists.
Universalism is more widespread in Europe (with the vast majority of Europeans claiming to be universalists), and the parts of American culture swayed in that direction come from the European liberal ideology that has crept in since FDR preached and implemented it. It's not really an American thing, even though we caught some of the disease.

Was not the U.S. founded upon the right to worship God as you please? When WW2 came there were 1 to 2 Democracies world wide...the U.S. has spread the banner of religious freedom under the guise of Democracy in some form or fashion to almost 170 of the 196/98 nations now recognized.....A study of the rise and fall of the empires I listed and how their leaders were worshipped as gods will reveal much.....I look at the U.S. like the vehicle that is preparing the stage through our policies, military, sanctions and world wide influence.....just think..there already has been a world wide currency....The U.S. dollar as the world reserve currency....every nation on the planet until recently has had to convert their money to U.S. dollars to buy oil......just a few thought....study the apo-theosis of George Washington as seen on the capitol dome....and how an ex pagan god who is identified with the kingdoms listed resides on all three rotundas of government, on top the capitol dome and at our main port of entry....she goes all the way back to Egypt and who currently hovers over the Middle East for the sake of the OIL.....? More to ponder for sure!

 

[kennethcadwell]

You two were going back and forth and I posted back further, one is saying Arabia the other Jerusalem and then when you look at what Paul says, concerning Agar being Mount Sinai of Arabia which answers to the Jerusalem that now is, you two (a I was thinking) are either both wrong or both right which is why I asked the question pages back, I started a thread on it because I wasnt hearing from anyone on it.

Agar is a Mother too.

Also, isnt Mount Paran what is known as Mecca today? Because isnt that where Abram depart from?

I am not sure if Mount Paran is located in Mecca, but Mecca does sit on 7 hills as well.
And I want to correct what I said as it is the northwest corner of Saudi Arabia that Mount Sinai sits. I was just saying there is no way that Jerusalem fits the bill, and the biggest reason is how can it be destroyed by the antichrist yet still exist when the Lord comes back and rules for the 1,000 years. Plus nobody is getting rich off of Jerusalem, or Israel as a whole for that.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Was not the U.S. founded upon the right to worship God as you please? When WW2 came there were 1 to 2 Democracies world wide...the U.S. has spread the banner of religious freedom under the guise of Democracy in some form or fashion to almost 170 of the 196/98 nations now recognized.....A study of the rise and fall of the empires I listed and how their leaders were worshipped as gods will reveal much.....I look at the U.S. like the vehicle that is preparing the stage through our policies, military, sanctions and world wide influence.....just think..there already has been a world wide currency....The U.S. dollar as the world reserve currency....every nation on the planet until recently has had to convert their money to U.S. dollars to buy oil......just a few thought....study the apo-theosis of George Washington as seen on the capitol dome....and how an ex pagan god who is identified with the kingdoms listed resides on all three rotundas of government, on top the capitol dome and at our main port of entry....she goes all the way back to Egypt and who currently hovers over the Middle East for the sake of the OIL.....? More to ponder for sure!

The more I have looked into this, and went by the descriptions and different sources of study material. I have come away from the whole America being Babylon, and have seen that Saudi Arabia fits the bill more. One reason is because I do not see the antichrist leading 10 kingdoms from the renewed holy Roman empire that is growing inside the EU, being able to destroy the U.S. They would have to have way more help then that, but the bible in Revelations 17 says only those 10 kingdoms lead by the antichrist will destroy Babylon.

 

[dcontroversal]

The more I have looked into this, and went by the descriptions and different sources of study material. I have come away from the whole America being Babylon, and have seen that Saudi Arabia fits the bill more. One reason is because I do not see the antichrist leading 10 kingdoms from the renewed holy Roman empire that is growing inside the EU, being able to destroy the U.S. They would have to have way more help then that, but the bible in Revelations 17 says only those 10 kingdoms lead by the antichrist will destroy Babylon.

Your account fails to recognize that God is behind the destruction of the nation and her defenses FAIL and she has no ability to respond and is a sitting duck....God places it upon the minds and heart of the 10 horns to lend their power unto the beast and they burn HER with fire.........

 

[keeth]

Your numbers are faulty. Look at Europe's population in the Middle Ages and you will find that if the Church killed that many people, Europe would have ceased to exist.

It happened over a period of over one thousand years. The numbers are not faulty they are estimates. We will not know the whole truth of the matter until God Himself reveals all things.

5-The Blood of the Saints​

Excerpts from FACTS OF FAITH,Christian Edwardson

“The Cathohc Church is a respecter of conscience and of liberty .... She has, and she loudly proclaims that she has, a ‘horror of blood.’ Nevertheless when confronted by heresy she does not content herself with persuasion; arguments of an intellectual and moral order appear to her insufficient, and she has recourse to force, to corporal punishment, to torture. She creates tribunals like those of the Inquisition, she calls the laws of the State to her aid, if necessary she encourages a crusade, or a religious war and all her ‘horror of blood’ practically culminates into urging the secular power to shed it, which proceeding is almost more odious-for it is less frank-than shedding it herself. Especially did she act thus in the sixteenth century with regard to Protestants. Not content to reform morally, to preach by example, to convert people by eloquent and holy missionaries, she lit in Italy, in the Low Countries, and above all in Spain the funeral piles of the Inquisition. In France under Francis I and Henry II, in England under Mary Tudor, she tortured the heretics, whilst both in France and Germany during the second half of the sixteenth and the first half of the seventeenth century if she did not actually begin, at any rate she encouraged and actively aided, the religious wars. No one will deny that we have here a great scandal to our contemporaries .... “Indeed, even among our friends and our brothers we find those who dare not look this problem in the face. They ask permission from the Church to ignore or even deny all those acts and institutions in the past which have made orthodoxy compulsory.’’- ’’ The Catholic Church, the Renaissance, and Protestantism,’’ pp. 182-134. London: 1908. This book bears the sanction of the Roman Catholic authorities, and of their “censor.”
Pope Gregory IX (1227-1241) made the following decree for the destruction of all heretics, which is binding on civil rulers:
“Temporal princes shall be reminded and exhorted, and if needs be, compelled by spiritual censures, to discharge every one of their functions: and that, as they desire to be reckoned and held faithful, so, for the defence of the faith, let them publicly make oath that they will endeavor, bona fide with all their might, to extirpate from their territories all heretics marked by the Church; so that when anyone is about to assume any authority, whether spiritual or temporal, he shall be held bound to confirm his title by this oath. And if a temporal prince, being required and admonished by the Church, shall neglect to purge his kingdom from this heretical pravity, the metropolitan and other provincial bishops shall bind him in fetters of excommunication; and if he obstinately refuse to make satisfaction this shall be notified within a year to the Supreme Pontiff, that then he may declare his subjects absolved from their allegiance, and leave their lands to be occupied by Catholics, who, the heretics being exterminated, may possess them unchallenged, and preserve them in the purity of the faith”-”Decretalium Gregorii Papae Noni Conpilatio,” Liber V, Titulus VII, Capitulum XIII, (A Collection of the Decretals of Gregory IX, Book 5, Title 7, Chapter 13), dated April 20, 1619.


Dr. J. Dowling says:
“From the birth of Popery in 606, to the present time, it is estimated by careful and credible historians, that more than fifty millions of the human family, have been slaughtered for the crime of heresy by popish persecutors, an average of more than forty thousand religious murders for every year of the existence of Popery”-”History of Romanism,” pp. 54I, 542. New York: 1871.


W. E. H. Lecky says:
“That the Church of Rome has shed more innocent blood than any other institution that has ever existed among mankind, will be questioned by no Protestant who has a competent knowledge of history. The memorials, indeed, of many of her persecutions are now so scanty, that it is impossible to form a complete conception of the multitude of her victims, and it is quite certain that no power of imagination can adequately realize their sufferings.’’-’’ History of the Rise and Influence of the Spirit of Rationolism in Europe,” Vol. II, p. 32. London: Longmans, Green, and Co., 1910.

John Lothrop Motley, speaking of papal persecution in the Netherlands, says:
“Upon February 16, 1568, a sentence of the Holy Office [the Inquisition] condemned all the inhabitants of the Netherlands to death as heretics .... A proclamation of the king, dated ten days later, confirmed this decree of the Inquisition, and ordered it to be carried into instant execution .... This is probably the most concise death warrant that was ever framed. Three millions of people, men, women, and children, were sentenced to the scaffold in three lines”-
” The Rise of the Dutch Republic,” (2-vol. ed.) Vol. I, p. 626. New York.


The following excerpts are from ROMANISM AND THE REFORMATION by H. Grattan Guiness.

As I shall have to recur to this subject when treating of St. John’s foreview of Romanism, I will add nothing further on this point. I have said enough to show, that this sixth mark of the little horn attaches most distinctly to the Papacy, and indicates it alone among all the powers that have ever held sway on the Roman earth. It has martyred by millions the saints of God, the best and holiest of men. Its persecuting edicts range over the entire period of its existence; the present pope has endorsed them by his approval of the syllabus of Pius IX., and he threw over them the mantle of infallibility. ( page 46 )


In the sunny south of France, in Provence and Catalonia, lived the Albigenses. They were a civilized and highly educated people. Among these people there sprang up an extensive revival of true religion, and one of its natural effects was a bold testimony against the abominations of apostate Rome. Here is Sismondi’s History of the Albigenses. On page 7 he
says of them and of the Vaudois: “All agreed in regarding the Church of Rome as having absolutely perverted Christianity, and in maintaining that it was she who was designated in the Apocalypse by the name of the whore of Babylon.” Rome could not endure this testimony; she drew her deadly sword and waged war against those who bore it. In the year 1208 the Albigenses were murderously persecuted. Innocent III (what a mockery his name!) employed the crusaders in this dreadful work. The war of extermination was denominated sacred. The pope’s soldiers prosecuted it with pious ardor; men, women, and children were all precipitated into the flames; whole cities were burned. In Beziers every soul was massacred; seven thousand dead bodies were counted in a single church, where the people had taken refuge; the whole country was laid waste; an entire people was slaughtered, and the eloquent witness of these early reformers was reduced to the silence of the sepulcher. ( page 122 )


This folio volume is a faithful history of the Waldenses, written 217 years ago, by the Waldensian pastor Leger. It contains his portrait. I have often looked at it with interest. The countenance is scarred with suffering, but full of spiritual light. Leger tells with simple clearness the story of the Waldenses from the earliest times, quoting from ancient and authentic
documents. He gives in full their confession of faith, and narrates the history of their martyrdoms, including the dreadful massacre in the vale of Lucerna, in 1655, of which he himself was an eye witness. This book was written only fourteen years after that massacre. It contains numerous depositions concerning it, rendered on oath, and long lists of the names of those who were its victims. It gives also plates depicting the dreadful ways in which they were slaughtered. These plates represent men, women, and children being dismembered, disemboweled, ripped up, run through with swords, impaled on stakes, torn limb from limb, flung from precipices, roasted in flames. They are almost too horrible to look at. And this was only one of a long series of massacres of the Waldenses extending through 600 painful years. ( pages 123& 124 )


On the other hand, post-Reformation times have been times of Papal reaction and revolution. In the first place, the Protestant Reformation was encountered by a tremendous Papal reaction, the rising wave of life and liberty was met by a counterwave of resistance. Hardly was the ship of a Protestant Church set free and launched upon the deep than there arose a mighty tempest. The resurrection of the slain “witnesses” of Christ in the person of the reformers was answered by a resurrection of all the powers of the pit. The awakening of men’s souls brought war, ecclesiastical and civil, a war of anathemas and a war of extermination. Swords flashed forth, flames were kindled; Rome rose in its anger and its might, and did wondrously. She thundered excommunications, she slaughtered millions; not without an awful struggle would the prince of darkness give up his kingdom. No! Look to it, ye brave reformers; ye will need the armory of heaven and its help, for the hosts of hell are roused against you. Ye may conquer, but it shall be through strife and anguish, and seas of blood. ( pages 147&148 )



Excerpts from Christ and Antichrist, Samuel J. Cassels

Mede has calculated from good authorities, “that in the war with the Albigenses and Waldenses there perished of these people, in France alone, 1,000,000. From the first institution of the Jesuits to the year 1580, a little more than thirty years, 900,000 orthodox Christians were slain. In the Netherlands alone, the Duke of Alva boasted, that within a few years he had dispatched to the amount of 36,000 souls, and those all by the hand of the common executioner. In the space of scarce thirty years, the Inquisition destroyed by various kinds of torture, 150,009 Christians.” Gibbon states it as a fact, though a melancholy one, that Papal Rome has shed immensely more Christian blood, than Pagan Rome had ever done. He gives but one illustration; that, however, a fearful one. “In the Netherlands alone,” says he, “more than 100,000 of the subjects of Charles V., are said to have suffered by the hands of the executioner.” ( Rome, chapter 16. )


Nor let it be said, that much of this bloodshed is to be ascribed to European princes’ and magistrates. With equal justice might the Jew affirm, that Jesus of Nazareth was condemned by Pilate, and executed by Roman soldiers. God, however, has charged the blood of his Son upon the Jews, by whose malignity and devisings Christ was crucified. Much more then, are the torrents of blood shed in Europe to be ascribed to the Papacy, to the Catholic church. These princes and magistrates were Catholic subjects, and they only executed the mind and will of the church. They were instigated by priests, yea, by the Pope himself. They were often complained of as being too tardy and too merciful; yea, some of them were involved in ruin, along with their heretical subjects, for their forbearance. Those of them too, who were most ferocious, who effected most brutally the work of ruin, received from Catholic dignitaries, and even from the Pope, the greatest amount of commendation. Thus Monfort, Catharine de Medicis, Charles IX., (whose remorse before death caused the blood to ooze from the pores of his body!) Louis XIV., etc., were congratulated by the Gregories, and innocents of their times, as faithful and zealous sons of the church, and as worthy the peculiar favor of heaven. This alliance, however, or rather identity, between the Papacy and policy of Europe in persecuting the saints, is matter of express and repeated prophecies. “These have one mind,” says John, “and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.” Again, ”For God has put it into their hearts, to fulfill his will, and to agree and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.” Revelation 17. ( Christ and Antichrist, Samuel J. Cassels )



A GENERAL HISTORY OF THE
BAPTIST DENOMINATION
VOLUME 1
by David Benedict (Pages 28-30)

SOME ACCOUNT OF THE PERSECUTIONS WHICH HAVE BEEN
CARRIED ON BY THE CHURCH OF ROME.

This church, among other enormities, is covered with the blood of saints, which is crying for vengeance on its polluted head. The murders and cruelties of which this bloody community has been guilty, can be but briefly touched upon here; but it is supposed, if I mistake not, that three million lives have been sacrificed to the persecuting rage of the papal power. Among these, upwards of a million were of the people called Waldenses or Albigenses. On the fatal night of St. Bartholomews, August 24, 1572, about seventy thousand persons were murdered in Paris, in the most barbarous manner, by the influence of the pope, and by the instrumentality of the bloodthirsty Charles IX. Within thirty years, there were murdered in France 59 princes, 148 counts, 234 barons, 147,518 gentlemen, and 760,000 persons of inferior rank in life, but whose blood equally called for justice. Three hundred thousand of these were murdered in a few years, by that furious catholic, Charles IX. The massacre of St. Bartholomews happened in the following manner; a match was concluded between Henry, (afterwards Henry IV) the young king of Navarre, a protestant, and the French King’s sister. The heads of the protestants were invited to celebrate the nuptials at Paris, with the infernal view of butchering them all, if possible, in one night. This horrid scene is thus described by the author of the Trial of Antichrist: “Exactly at midnight on the eve of St. Bartholomews, (so called) 1572, the alarm bell was rung in the Palais Royale, as the signal of death. About five hundred protestant barons, knights and gentlemen, who had come from all parts to honor the wedding, were, among the rest, barbarously butchered in their beds. The gentlemen, officers of the chamber, governors, tutors, and household servants of the king of Navarre, and prince of Conde, were driven out of the chambers where they slept in the Louvre, and being in the court, were massacred in the king’s presence. The slaughter was now general throughout the city, and as Thuanus writes, “that the very channels ran down with blood into the river.” This was, however, magnified as a glorious action, and the king, who was one of the most active murderers, boasted that he had put 70,000 heretics to death. I might

quote the words of a French author, who wrote the history of France, from the reign of Henry II. to Henry IV. and say, “How strange and horrible a thing it was, in a great town, to see at least 60,000 men with pistols, pikes, cutlasses, poniards, knives, and other bloody instruments, run, swearing and blaspheming the sacred Majesty of God, through the streets and into houses, where most cruelly they massacred all, whomsoever they met, without regard of estate, condition, sex, or age. The streets paved with bodies cut and hewed to pieces; the gates and entries of houses, palaces, and public places, dyed with blood. Shouting and hallooings of the murderers, mixed with continual noise of pistols and calivers discharged; the pitiful eries and shrieks of those that were murdering. Slain bodies cast out of the windows upon the stones, and drawn through the dirt. Strange noise of whistling, breaking of doors and windows with bills and stones. The spoiling and sacking of houses. Carts, some carrying away the spoils, and others the dead bodies, which were thrown into the river Seine, all now red with blood, which ran out of the town and from the king’s palace.” While the horrid scene was transacting, many priests ran about the city, with crucifixes in one hand and daggers in the other, to encourage the slaughter.” (Trial of Antichrist, p. 134-5.)


In the short reign of the ever to be execrated popish Mary, queen of England, there were burnt in that kingdom, one archbishop, four bishops, twenty-one preachers, eight gentlemen, eighty-four artificers, a hundred husbandmen and laborers, twenty-six wives, twenty widows, nine unmarried women, two boys and two infants. Forty thousand perished in the Irish massacre, in 1641. In a very short time, there were hanged, burned, buried alive, and beheaded, 50,000 persons in the Netherlands. The single order of Jesuits alone are computed, in the space of thirty or forty years, to have put to death 900,000 christians, who deserted from popery. And the Inquisition, the bloody instrument of papal vengeance, in the space of about thirty years, destroyed, by various torture, 150,000. (Trial of Antichrist throughout.)


No doubt, the above research doesn’t even scratch the surface of information pertaining to the blood of the saints in the annals of history at the hands of the Church of Rome. There is no question then, that this third identifying mark was strikingly fulfilled by the history of the Church of Rome. The writer contends that he has proven beyond doubt, that the Church of Rome is Babylon the great, and the Mother of harlots which the scriptures we are examining speak of. She is that city which will reign above all the others of this earth, and above a world in rebellion against God. Let us now examine the second angel’s message in light of these established facts.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Your account fails to recognize that God is behind the destruction of the nation and her defenses FAIL and she has no ability to respond and is a sitting duck....God places it upon the minds and heart of the 10 horns to lend their power unto the beast and they burn HER with fire.........

I do not believe it though also because of the fact that in Revelation 12 it shows America as still Israel's protector for the 3 1/2 years.

 

[dcontroversal]

I do not believe it though also because of the fact that in Revelation 12 it shows America as still Israel's protector for the 3 1/2 years.

Really and exactly why do you think that...it is GOD that gives them the wings to FLEE into the NEGEV and not the U.S. so......???

 

[kennethcadwell]

Really and exactly why do you think that...it is GOD that gives them the wings to FLEE into the NEGEV and not the U.S. so......???

It says wings of a great eagle, guess who the great eagle country of the world is ?
Remember God works through us down here, and animals in prophecy are always listed as kingdoms in the bible. The one exception being the dragon that is satan. So when it says God has given them the wings of a great eagle to carry them off and protect them, we can see that eagle is America.

Just like the books have been sealed in the past, and starting to open before our very eyes. Which is why I also do not believe the Lion is Babylon as prophecy teachers have taught in the past. I believe the Lion as it was described in Daniel is Great Britain, and why is this? Because it says it had wings too, and the wings broke away and was made to stand up like a man. Once again American broke away from Great Britain, and our other symbol is Uncle Sam. And notice when the Lion is mentioned in Revelation as part of the antichrist system of nations the wings are not there........

 

[ThomistColin]

It happened over a period of over one thousand years. The numbers are not faulty they are estimates. We will not know the whole truth of the matter until God Himself reveals all things.

Though I do not agree with everything in this post. As a Roman Catholic, I want to thank you for remaining civil and using documentation to defend your argument, and not just a single source, but multiple sources from Secondary Sources to Primary Sources.

I am not being snide or trying to be offensive. Its just when coming again someone I disagree with who is willing to debate fairly, is a breath of fresh air.

 

[Socrates]

No big mystery, the closest "church" to you.

 

[Atwood]

Read Rev 17-18, some 5 or six times we are told most specifically what the harlot Babylon is. The text repeats that it is a CITY, specifically the city ruling. It is characterized by 5 hills/mountains.
Now rocket scientists, what on earth city could that be???

The words "church," religion, and denomination are not mentioned.

 

[Atwood]

Though I do not agree with everything in this post. As a Roman Catholic, I want to thank you for remaining civil and using documentation to defend your argument, and not just a single source, but multiple sources from Secondary Sources to Primary Sources.

I am not being snide or trying to be offensive. Its just when coming again someone I disagree with who is willing to debate fairly, is a breath of fresh air.

Identifying the Harlot Babylon with the papacy is unwarranted. Babylon is specifically called a city like 5 or 6 times.

 

[Atwood]

I do not believe it though also because of the fact that in Revelation 12 it shows America as still Israel's protector for the 3 1/2 years.

One thing never mentioned in Revelation is "America." The non-mention to me is significant. Next will you argue from the Olivet Discourse (mat 24 & parallels) that the eagles mean the USA in that eschatological passage? And of course it refers to the Americans loving & kissing cars when it says "carcass."

 

[Atwood]

Just to clarify one thing, it is a big propagandistic falsehood to call the papacy & his organization "The Church." No denomination is "The Church."

 

[Socrates]

Identifying the Harlot Babylon with the papacy is unwarranted. Babylon is specifically called a city like 5 or 6 times.

right, kind of like when Jesus said, "you are a city set on a hill".

Don't bother with figurative or spiritual understandings.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

So many heretics, so little time...

That chapter 18 does not refer to temple sacrifices, as the other nations of the world can not get rich off of temple sacrifices. So again your understanding is flawed again, as you are still reading to much into it because this is not referring to the temple or its sacrifices.

First of all, in a previous post on this very thread, I said:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/47873-who-babylon-great-harlot-15.html#post1859030

If you're not convinced by now, then this ought to seal the deal for you. Yes, we're given one other descriptor of this "great city" in the chapter which we just read, namely this:

"...and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies" (Revelation 18:3)

"The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her..." (Revelation 18:15)

"And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness!..." (Revelation 18:19)

Friends, we're given a precise list in this chapter of exactly what "these things" are by which the merchants of the earth were made rich by selling "these things" to the inhabitants of this "great city". Yes, the list can be found in verses 11 through 13 and if I took the time to do so (I don't have it available to me at the moment), then I could show you how that every one of "these things" on this list are directly related to either the building of a temple, the sacrifices which take place in a temple, the ointments used in a temple, the shewbread used in a temple, etc., etc., etc. Gee, I cannot imagine where the Bible tells us that a temple normally is located? It couldn't be in JERUSALEM, could it? You'd better believe that it could be and will be once more in the future.

Secondly, in the post of mine that you were actually addressing with your response, I said:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/47873-who-babylon-great-harlot-16.html#post1859088

As far as the merchants who are getting rich is concerned, do yourself a favor and read the list of what they're selling to "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH". Here, I'll list it for you:

Revelation chapter 18

[11] And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:
[12] The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
[13] And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
[14] And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all.
[15] The merchants of these things, which were made rich by her, shall stand afar off for the fear of her torment, weeping and wailing,
[16] And saying, Alas, alas, that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!
[17] For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off,
[18] And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city!
[19] And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
[20] Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

If need be, then I'll gladly show you how everything on that list pertains to things, people or animals WHICH PERTAIN TO TEMPLE SACRIFICE/MAINTENANCE. Gee, I cannot imagine where the Bible says that the temple is normally located, can you? Mecca? Nah. Saudi Arabia? Nah. Rome? Nah. New York City (for those on the lunatic fringe)? Nah.

Jerusalem?

BINGO!

With such being the case, there are more than enough things on my list WHICH IS REALLY THE LIST THAT WE'RE GIVEN IN REVELATION CHAPTER 18 by which the merchants can be "made rich" AND THEY ALL PERTAIN TO THINGS, PEOPLE AND ANIMALS WHICH/WHO ARE NEEDED FOR TEMPLE SACRIFICE/MAINTENANCE/ETC. That's reality...whether you like it or not.

Second Jerusalem is not a sea port, as it lies inland in Israel. However Mecca is a sea port city, which is another description of the mother of all Harlots.

Who said that Jerusalem itself has to be a sea port? You? There are sea ports in Israel which can then transfer goods to Jerusalem. Here's a map of the same:

WPS - Map of ports in Israel

Even Solomon had things which were used in the temple in his day imported to him by ship (I Kings chapter 10, II Chronicles chapter 9).

Once again you are trying to interject things that are not there, like for one the bible says Babylon gets destroyed by the anitchrist. However the bible says that Jerusalem still stands when the Lord comes back, and that is where the Lord sits in His temple for the 1,000 years millennial reign. Then after all has been fulfilled does the New Jerusalem come down from heaven. It does not come with the Lord's return..............

Thanks for proving MY POINT.

Yes, ironically, you've only managed to prove what I said earlier, namely this:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/47873-who-babylon-great-harlot-15.html#post1859024

Somebody once said (I'm paraphrasing) that to attempt to understand the New Testament without having a foundational understanding of the Old Testament first is like trying to build a roof on a house without first building the house underneath it to support it. IOW, when we come to the book of Revelation (or any part of the New Testament, for that matter), that is not the place to begin our quest for truth, especially since there are multiple references to the Old Testament found throughout this New Testament book.

IOW, by failing to recognize that many of these New Testament references to "Mystery Babylon" are citations from the Old Testament in regards to actual Babylon, you've failed to grasp the actual meaning and intent of said passages. For example, in relation to actual Babylon, we read:

"Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence. Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so she may be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies." (Jeremiah 51:6-9)

Here, we read of the following in relation to actual Babylon:

1. Her inhabitants are being told to flee lest they be cut off in her iniquity.
2. The nations have drunken of her wine and are mad.
3. She is suddenly fallen and destroyed.
4. Her judgment reaches unto heaven.

Now, compare the above to what we read in relation to "Mystery Babylon":

"And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double." (Revelation 18:1-6)

Do you see the DELIBERATE similarities?

1. Her inhabitants are being told to come out of her or to flee that they be not partakers of her sins or be cut off in her iniquity.
2. All nations have drunken of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
3. She is suddenly fallen and destroyed.
4. Her sins have reached unto heaven and she is being judged.

Again, JERUSALEM (unless you believe that Jesus was crucified in Saudi Arabia...you don't, do you?) had previously been spiritually called both Sodom and Egypt (Revelation 11:8) and she is here being spiritually called "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Revelation 17:5). Did you catch that "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS" thing? You need to. IOW, this "great city", which I've already shown to be JERUSALEM and none other, is not only a "harlot" (and she was repeatedly referred to as being such by God all throughout her history), but she is also "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS" in that she gave birth, so to speak, to all of the other "harlots" who followed after her whorish ways. Now, you, on the other hand, would have me/us to believe that somehow Saudi Arabia is "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS" but she is not. Deal with it...and stop promoting HERESY.

Anyhow, here are some more similarities between actual Babylon and "Mystery Babylon":

"So Jeremiah wrote in a book all the evil that should come upon Babylon, even all these words that are written against Babylon. And Jeremiah said to Seraiah, When thou comest to Babylon, and shalt see, and shalt read all these words; Then shalt thou say, O LORD, thou hast spoken against this place, to cut it off, that none shall remain in it, neither man nor beast, but that it shall be desolate for ever. And it shall be, when thou hast made an end of reading this book, that thou shalt bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of Euphrates: And thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary. Thus far are the words of Jeremiah." (Jeremiah 51:60-64)

In relation to actual Babylon, we read the following:

1. None shall remain in it, but is shall be desolate forever.
2. A stone was symbolically attached to Babylon that it should sink and not rise from the evil that God would bring against her.

Before noting these similarities between actual Babylon and "Mystery Babylon", I have a question for you:

Has actual Babylon ever been inhabited again?

I trust that you won't mind if I answer my own question. Of course, it has been inhabited again...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/04/world/...bylon-tourism/

...and you need to keep this reality in mind to properly understand the comparison between actual Babylon and "Mystery Babylon". In relation to the latter, we read:

"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (Revelation 18:21)

Again, notice the DELIBERATE similarities:

1. Babylon shall be found no more at all.
2. A giant millstone was symbolically attached to "Mystery Babylon" and it was cast into the sea.

Well, if you can recognize that actual Babylon still exists today even though it had "fallen", then you should also be able to recognize that "MYSTERY BABYLON" can still exist even after it has "fallen". In relation to both actual Babylon and "Mystery Babylon", the commandment came forth from God to "flee from her". Where, then, do we see such commandments given in the New Testament and in relation to what people/city are they given? Well, there's really no need to guess. No, we read:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" (Matthew 24:15-16)

"The holy place", as we both know, is the temple which will be situated in JERUSALEM. Yes, those in Judaea or Judah, which is where JERUSALEM is, were instructed to "flee into the mountains" when they see the coming (it hasn't come yet, despite the beliefs of many) "abomination of desolation" which was "spoken of by Daniel the prophet". Along these same lines, we read:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:12-17)

Yes, the day is rapidly approaching when "the dragon", Satan, in the person of the antichrist, will "persecute THE WOMAN which brought forth the man child". Now, of course, we both know that this "woman" relates to the nation of Israel, so why would you have me to believe that it relates to Saudi Arabia? Again, it's total non-Biblical nonsense.

Out of curiosity, you're not a disciple of the FRAUD (easily proven) and HERETIC (ditto) Walid Shoebat, are you? After all, your heresies sound a lot like his...

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So many heretics, so little time...


First of all, in a previous post on this very thread, I said:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/47873-who-babylon-great-harlot-15.html#post1859030


Secondly, in the post of mine that you were actually addressing with your response, I said:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/47873-who-babylon-great-harlot-16.html#post1859088


With such being the case, there are more than enough things on my list WHICH IS REALLY THE LIST THAT WE'RE GIVEN IN REVELATION CHAPTER 18 by which the merchants can be "made rich" AND THEY ALL PERTAIN TO THINGS, PEOPLE AND ANIMALS WHICH/WHO ARE NEEDED FOR TEMPLE SACRIFICE/MAINTENANCE/ETC. That's reality...whether you like it or not.


Who said that Jerusalem itself has to be a sea port? You? There are sea ports in Israel which can then transfer goods to Jerusalem. Here's a map of the same:

WPS - Map of ports in Israel

Even Solomon had things which were used in the temple in his day imported to him by ship (I Kings chapter 10, II Chronicles chapter 9).


Thanks for proving MY POINT.

Yes, ironically, you've only managed to prove what I said earlier, namely this:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/47873-who-babylon-great-harlot-15.html#post1859024


IOW, by failing to recognize that many of these New Testament references to "Mystery Babylon" are citations from the Old Testament in regards to actual Babylon, you've failed to grasp the actual meaning and intent of said passages. For example, in relation to actual Babylon, we read:

"Flee out of the midst of Babylon, and deliver every man his soul: be not cut off in her iniquity; for this is the time of the LORD's vengeance; he will render unto her a recompence. Babylon hath been a golden cup in the LORD's hand, that made all the earth drunken: the nations have drunken of her wine; therefore the nations are mad. Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: howl for her; take balm for her pain, if so she may be healed. We would have healed Babylon, but she is not healed: forsake her, and let us go every one into his own country: for her judgment reacheth unto heaven, and is lifted up even to the skies." (Jeremiah 51:6-9)

Here, we read of the following in relation to actual Babylon:

1. Her inhabitants are being told to flee lest they be cut off in her iniquity.
2. The nations have drunken of her wine and are mad.
3. She is suddenly fallen and destroyed.
4. Her judgment reaches unto heaven.

Now, compare the above to what we read in relation to "Mystery Babylon":

"And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory. And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double." (Revelation 18:1-6)

Do you see the DELIBERATE similarities?

1. Her inhabitants are being told to come out of her or to flee that they be not partakers of her sins or be cut off in her iniquity.
2. All nations have drunken of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
3. She is suddenly fallen and destroyed.
4. Her sins have reached unto heaven and she is being judged.

Again, JERUSALEM (unless you believe that Jesus was crucified in Saudi Arabia...you don't, do you?) had previously been spiritually called both Sodom and Egypt (Revelation 11:8) and she is here being spiritually called "MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH" (Revelation 17:5). Did you catch that "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS" thing? You need to. IOW, this "great city", which I've already shown to be JERUSALEM and none other, is not only a "harlot" (and she was repeatedly referred to as being such by God all throughout her history), but she is also "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS" in that she gave birth, so to speak, to all of the other "harlots" who followed after her whorish ways. Now, you, on the other hand, would have me/us to believe that somehow Saudi Arabia is "THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS" but she is not. Deal with it...and stop promoting HERESY.

Anyhow, here are some more similarities between actual Babylon and "Mystery Babylon":

"So Jeremiah wrote in a book all the evil that should come upon Babylon, even all these words that are written against Babylon. And Jeremiah said to Seraiah, When thou comest to Babylon, and shalt see, and shalt read all these words; Then shalt thou say, O LORD, thou hast spoken against this place, to cut it off, that none shall remain in it, neither man nor beast, but that it shall be desolate for ever. And it shall be, when thou hast made an end of reading this book, that thou shalt bind a stone to it, and cast it into the midst of Euphrates: And thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise from the evil that I will bring upon her: and they shall be weary. Thus far are the words of Jeremiah." (Jeremiah 51:60-64)

In relation to actual Babylon, we read the following:

1. None shall remain in it, but is shall be desolate forever.
2. A stone was symbolically attached to Babylon that it should sink and not rise from the evil that God would bring against her.

Before noting these similarities between actual Babylon and "Mystery Babylon", I have a question for you:

Has actual Babylon ever been inhabited again?

I trust that you won't mind if I answer my own question. Of course, it has been inhabited again...

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/04/world/...bylon-tourism/

...and you need to keep this reality in mind to properly understand the comparison between actual Babylon and "Mystery Babylon". In relation to the latter, we read:

"And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all." (Revelation 18:21)

Again, notice the DELIBERATE similarities:

1. Babylon shall be found no more at all.
2. A giant millstone was symbolically attached to "Mystery Babylon" and it was cast into the sea.

Well, if you can recognize that actual Babylon still exists today even though it had "fallen", then you should also be able to recognize that "MYSTERY BABYLON" can still exist even after it has "fallen". In relation to both actual Babylon and "Mystery Babylon", the commandment came forth from God to "flee from her". Where, then, do we see such commandments given in the New Testament and in relation to what people/city are they given? Well, there's really no need to guess. No, we read:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand): Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:" (Matthew 24:15-16)

"The holy place", as we both know, is the temple which will be situated in JERUSALEM. Yes, those in Judaea or Judah, which is where JERUSALEM is, were instructed to "flee into the mountains" when they see the coming (it hasn't come yet, despite the beliefs of many) "abomination of desolation" which was "spoken of by Daniel the prophet". Along these same lines, we read:

"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." (Revelation 12:12-17)

Yes, the day is rapidly approaching when "the dragon", Satan, in the person of the antichrist, will "persecute THE WOMAN which brought forth the man child". Now, of course, we both know that this "woman" relates to the nation of Israel, so why would you have me to believe that it relates to Saudi Arabia? Again, it's total non-Biblical nonsense.

Out of curiosity, you're not a disciple of the FRAUD (easily proven) and HERETIC (ditto) Walid Shoebat, are you? After all, your heresies sound a lot like his...

And people wonder why this topic gets so heated, and it is almost better to not even discuss it.

Not only is this post full of judgment and hate, it is full of error. But you can not discuss the error with the person because you are already called a heretic and fraud for not believing the way he does (rolls eyes)

 

[JesusistheChrist]

And people wonder why this topic gets so heated, and it is almost better to not even discuss it.

Not only is this post full of judgment and hate, it is full of error. But you can not discuss the error with the person because you are already called a heretic and fraud for not believing the way he does (rolls eyes)

My "fraud" and "heretic" comment at the end pertained specifically to Walid Shoebat and, like I said, both charges can be easily proven. It is also true that I referred to kennethcaldwell as a teacher of heresy...because that is exactly what he is teaching in this thread. Now, if you feel that you can prove the alleged "error" in my post, then go right ahead. If not, then I'll just dismiss your post as meaningless.