Will you listen to what God has to say about OSAS? Just scriptures?

[Bookends]

There are a lot of warnings to Christians in the NT to stay the coarse, to remain in Christ, to be in Christ Jesus. We are eternally secure if we remain in Christ. If one stops abiding in Christ and denies Him, then the Father will deny him. Seems clear and simple to me.

Matt. 10:33
New American Standard Bible
"But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven.

 

[royalscot]

new covenant, ie when the holy spirit was given to believers,

the only question would be why start a new covenant after the resurrection. (we already know it was foretold)

and given the different time lines to the facts, first jews, then gentiles (the holy spirit given to believers etc)

ie you have to believe in jesus.

The Righteous Shall Live by Faith
10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, "Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them."11 Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law, for "The righteous shall live by faith."12 But the law is not of faith, rather "The one who does them shall live by them."13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us---for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree"---14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit through faith.

and


21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law.22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.



to


1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.6 For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot.8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.
Heirs with Christ ( and so on)Romans 8





when did law or self righteousness save anyone.

 

[Kerry]

They just listening to what some dude said.

 

[royalscot]

They just listening to what some dude said.

lol what is god saying through them dude. or do you also miss this. (test the scriptures)

that go s to all books wrote in the bible.

and you wonder why they are blind and deaf to god. even logic and reasons and understanding change in human history. (time)

ie when did they see the first car, plane, or book. etc etc etc

logic has no place in belief because you already believe or don t believe. (your choice) etc

 

[Jason0047]

old covenant and new covenant, at a guess, you need some one to explain the difference between the two, to you brother.

and the time line to the history of the bible.

I believe the New Covenant went into effect officially with Christ's death. The Law of Moses is no more. We are now under the New Covenant with different New Testament Commands. But Jesus taught New Covenant and not Old Covenant during His ministry, though. How so? Well, Jesus said, you have heard it said an eye for an eye, .... BUT I TELL YOU .... to turn the other cheek. In other words, Jesus was changing things even before the cross. He was telling people to put faith directly in Him. This was before the cross. John the Baptist had the Holy Ghost since his birth. This is before the cross.

However, Paul does not disagree with Jesus' words in Matthew 6:14-15, though. In Ephesians 4:32, Paul says, "And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ has forgiven you."

Now, your probabaly thinking that this is not saying the same thing. That this is merely a suggestion by Paul. But Paul said that what he wrote was the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). However, more importantly Paul said if any man teaches contrary (otherwise) to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine which is according to Godliness; he is proud, and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). So you can't tell me that Paul taught something different than what Jesus taught. Paul says a person knows nothing if they say such a thing.

 

[Jason0047]

Simple fact is, I am right and you are wrong.
Actually you are wrong an most things you post on this forum.
I will pray that you learn the truth.

You are still avoiding in explaining Matthew 6:14-15 to me. You have to know this not my first day on the job in debating OSAS. This is a usual tactic. There is no explanations. Just some vague explanation and some claim that their view is right with no Biblical evidence. In fact, without the false teaching of MAD (Mid Acts Dispensationalism), nobody has explained Matthew 6:14-15 clearly here. It's because they can't. Unless they want to believe in the false two gospel view (MAD - Mid Acts Dispensationalism). But that false teaching is also refuted with Scripture, too; For Paul agreed with the Lord Jesus Christ's words (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

 

[Jason0047]

lol what is god saying through them dude. or do you also miss this. (test the scriptures)

that go s to all books wrote in the bible.

and you wonder why they are blind and deaf to god. even logic and reasons and understanding change in human history. (time)

ie when did they see the first car, plane, or book. etc etc etc

logic has no place in belief because you already believe or don t believe. (your choice) etc

What? No. The Lord our God is a God of order and logic. God does not run contrary to what is orderly and logical. Jesus illustrated many spiritual truths thru real world examples called parables. If the parables were illogical and not based on reality (i.e. not logical), then we would have no frame of reference to understand the spiritual. That is why OSAS is a lie. You cannot illustrate it usiing a parable in any way. It is a doctrine of devils because it leads many people (but not all people) into thinking they can sin and still be saved. For there is no real consequence to an OSAS type belief. Chastening of the Lord is not that big of deterrent because unbelievers go thru the same challenges that a believer would go thru. This life is temporary. Only punishment in being separated from God and destroyed in the Lake of Fire is a truly effective deterrent for a person in not sinning. For Jesus said fear not him who can destroy the body but fear him who can destroy both body and soul in Hell (i.e. Gehenna, the Lake of Fire).

 

[Jason0047]

Just how many OSAS do you really know. a 100, mabe 1000.
There a millions of us.

I do not know the exact number of OSAS proponents who claim they can sin and still be saved (only God knows that answer); However, I know it is the wide gate belief and not the narrow gate belief. The wide gate is the easy path that everyone is on. I mean, honestly, what makes you think God would be righteous and just in allowing His people to get away with doing evil? How is that fair if unbelievers and believers go thru the same forms of challenges in this life because of their sin? In other words, you are saying that God does not care about justice. That evil can be justified just by having a belief. However, when I read thru the Scriptures, that really doesn't sound like the Holy God of the Bible to me, though. Also, if OSAS was true, then I also would have to change the plain meaning of hundreds of passages in His Word, as well.

 

[Jason0047]

when did law or an action save you. or others opinion . define evil, if your saved by grace a gift.

1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.Romans 8:

up to you, who you want to believe jesus, or human endeavors to prove things to you.

I noticed that you quoted Romans 8:1 without... "Walk after the Spirit" part within it. That is essential so as not to be under the Condemnation. The Condemnation is defined for us in John 3:19-21. It says that Light has come into the world and men did not come to the Light because they loved the darkness of their own evil deeds. Meaning, any man whether they are a professing believer or not who sins has not truly come to the Light because they love the darkness of their own evil deeds still. They are still under the Condemnation.

 

[Angela53510]

"Obey" is a condition to being saved and it's also present tense. Cannot quit obeying and yet still be saved in disobedience.

You have the order reversed.

We are saved, in fact, eternally saved according to Hebrew 5:9, and THEN we obey. We simply do not have the power to obey without the Holy Spirit.

As for present tense, your lack of Greek grammar is once again showing. Obey is a present active participle. Participles are extremely complex constructions in Greek, to say nothing of the fact that present tense in Greek can mean everything from "now" or "immediately" to an ongoing action, to a repeated action, a customary, habitual or general action, or even a timeless fact (gnomic). In other words, time is less important than aspect in Greek.

The same applies to John 5:24 where "hear" ἀκούων and "believe" πιστεύων are both present active participles and thus in combination with the aorist active participle τῷ πέμψαντί, (who has sent me) mean that eternal life is definitely to those who hear and believe. If one reads Romans 10:8c-10, we find that once one has heard the word proclaimed, confessed and believe, you are saved.

"(that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); [SUP]9 [/SUP]because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:8c-10

Confess, agree/proclaim is the word ὁμολογήσῃς (homologeses). It is a judicial term, the word indicates the binding, and public declaration which settles a relationship with legal force. The double accusative κύριον Ἰησοῦν, Jesus is Lord is the acknowledgement that Jesus shares the name, the nature, the holiness, the authority, the power, majesty and eternity of the one and only true God.

In Romans 10:9, the verbs are in the aorist, or in simple terms, the past tense. In verse 10, the verbs are present tense, but in the passive construction, ie "one believes" and "one is justified."

When we are saved, it indicates belief, which is followed by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit who helps us obey.

But of course, besides such an erroneous soteriology, you have a heretical pneumatology, which means that you are deceived on many levels.

Besides, Hebrews 5:9 is about Jesus, not about us if you read it in context of the chapter, and the book of Hebrews. The same for John 5:24, when it comes down to it. It is about Jesus!

Of course, such a man-centered, man-saving himself soteriology would take those passages and twist them out of context to be about man, rather than Jesus Christ.

 

[Jason0047]

was jesus on the cross at this time.(your quote) or did you miss this fact, pentecost started when jesus was back in heaven(there was no .gentiles at penticost)

Are you saying there was no saved Gentile believers in the Old Testament? What about the city of Nineveh? What about Ruth and Rahab? Did Jesus ultimately refuse the Gentile woman's request? Why did Jesus say to preach the gospel to every creature to his disciples after he was risen? Did Jesus say He changed gospels and or teachings at any point?

 

[Kerry]

lol what is god saying through them dude. or do you also miss this. (test the scriptures)

that go s to all books wrote in the bible.

and you wonder why they are blind and deaf to god. even logic and reasons and understanding change in human history. (time)

ie when did they see the first car, plane, or book. etc etc etc

logic has no place in belief because you already believe or don t believe. (your choice) etc

Get a triple cheeseburger and diet coke cause you make no sense.

 

[Jason0047]

You have the order reversed.

We are saved, in fact, eternally saved according to Hebrew 5:9, and THEN we obey. We simply do not have the power to obey without the Holy Spirit.

As for present tense, your lack of Greek grammar is once again showing. Obey is a present active participle. Participles are extremely complex constructions in Greek, to say nothing of the fact that present tense in Greek can mean everything from "now" or "immediately" to an ongoing action, to a repeated action, a customary, habitual or general action, or even a timeless fact (gnomic). In other words, time is less important than aspect in Greek.

The same applies to John 5:24 where "hear" ἀκούων and "believe" πιστεύων are both present active participles and thus in combination with the aorist active participle τῷ πέμψαντί, (who has sent me) mean that eternal life is definitely to those who hear and believe. If one reads Romans 10:8c-10, we find that once one has heard the word proclaimed, confessed and believe, you are saved.

"(that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); [SUP]9 [/SUP]because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. [SUP]10 [/SUP]For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved." Romans 10:8c-10

Confess, agree/proclaim is the word ὁμολογήσῃς (homologeses). It is a judicial term, the word indicates the binding, and public declaration which settles a relationship with legal force. The double accusative κύριον Ἰησοῦν, Jesus is Lord is the acknowledgement that Jesus shares the name, the nature, the holiness, the authority, the power, majesty and eternity of the one and only true God.

In Romans 10:9, the verbs are in the aorist, or in simple terms, the past tense. In verse 10, the verbs are present tense, but in the passive construction, ie "one believes" and "one is justified."

When we are saved, it indicates belief, which is followed by the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit who helps us obey.

But of course, besides such an erroneous soteriology, you have a heretical pneumatology, which means that you are deceived on many levels.

Besides, Hebrews 5:9 is about Jesus, not about us if you read it in context of the chapter, and the book of Hebrews. The same for John 5:24, when it comes down to it. It is about Jesus!

Of course, such a man-centered, man-saving himself soteriology would take those passages and twist them out of context to be about man, rather than Jesus Christ.

When we read Hebrews 5:9, we must also read Hebrews chapter 3, too.

It says,

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:12-14).

Did you catch that? The author of Hebrews says, take heed brethren. The author is talking to brethren. He says take heed that none of them have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. In other words, unbelievers cannot depart from the living God because they are already departed. I cannot depart from Houston airport unless I am in Houston airport. It's the same line of thought here. The brethren (who obviously know God) cannot depart from the Lord unless they know the Lord. This is why the author continues to say that the believers should not be hardened thru the deceitfulness of sin. This is why the author says we are made partakers of Christ .... IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast until the end.

Also, when you read Romans 10:8-10, you also have to read Romans 11 that follows that says,

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heedlest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22).

Here we are told not to be highminded but to fear. Why? It says if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), we are to take heed that he does not spare us also. For we (Gentiles) are told to continue in his goodness otherwise we can be potentially cut off, too.

 

[Angela53510]

I do not know the exact number of OSAS proponents who claim they can sin and still be saved (only God knows that answer); However, I know it is the wide gate belief and not the narrow gate belief. The wide gate is the easy path that everyone is on. I mean, honestly, what makes you think God would be righteous and just in allowing His people to get away with doing evil? How is that fair if unbelievers and believers go thru the same forms of challenges in this life because of their sin? In other words, you are saying that God does not care about justice. That evil can be justified just by having a belief. However, when I read thru the Scriptures, that really doesn't sound like the Holy God of the Bible to me, though. Also, if OSAS was true, then I also would have to change the plain meaning of hundreds of passages in His Word, as well.

My testimony is that I was a defeated and scared believer before I began to really read the Scriptures, and to understand that God saves us eternally, because he is sovereign.

Do you know what sovereign means, Jason?

"The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will (see Eph. 1:11). His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted (see Isa. 46:11); nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign de jure (in principle), but sovereign de facto (in practice)."

http://www.theopedia.com/Sovereignty_of_God

"The sovereignty of God means that He has total control of all things past, present and future. Nothing happens that is out of His knowledge and control. All things are either caused by Him or allowed by Him for His own purposes and through His perfect will and timing (Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6). He is the only absolute and omnipotent ruler of the universe and is sovereign in creation, providence and redemption."

"If there is any element of the universe that is outside of his authority, then he no longer is God over all. In other words, sovereignty belongs to deity. Sovereignty is a natural attribute of the Creator. God owns what he makes, and he rules what he owns." – R.C. Sproul -

See more at: Sovereignty of God Definition

God is in control, not us. That is true for redemption as it is for creation, and for all things in this universe.

As a defeated Arminian Christian, because I attended churches that taught only that, I gradually moved away from God, because I knew I had continued to sin after I was saved. True, I repented, confessed those sins, but I knew that it was never enough!

And I was right! We can never obey Jesus, follow him closely enough in our own strength to deserve salvation. That is why Jesus is the one who justifies, and it gives us peace with God.

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 8:1

That is the moment God legally justified or declared us to be right before him. The Greek is most instructive in this verse.

"Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως εἰρήνην ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ," Romans 5:1

Δικαιωθέντες, (dikaiothentes) is an aorist passive participle. Aorist points to a completed action. Passive means theologically that God has done the action upon the subject. Therefore, it is GOD who justifies, not us, not our works, our obedience or our ability to follow God.

The outcome of God justifying or declaring us righteous, is that we have peace with God. I know the day that I realized it was God that saved me, not myself, I had peace that had eluded me for 25 years, under the erroneous and heinous doctrine of losing your salvation by your actions.

My husband continued to believe himself unworthy of being saved, and also drifted far from God. Fortunately, we found a Biblical pastor to sit under, and he preached over and over that we are eternally saved and cannot lose our salvation, based on passage after passage. My husband became a different person when he realized he could not earn his way to heaven by his works. He went back to reading his Bible, to witnessing, to proclaiming that GOD SAVES. It was the true meaning of freedom in Jesus Christ.

So sorry you had a bad experience and thought you were saved when you weren't, backslide from your supposed salvation, and now come on here constantly teaching bad doctrine that we can lose our salvation, based on poor exegesis of the Biblical text. But the fact is, every time you examine these supposed proof texts for losing your salvation, the Greek does not support it.

Neither does the English for that matter, but because English is a less complex language than Greek, it is easier to twist than the Greek, especially since you are working from a translation with translators biases, rather than the original language.

The "plain" meaning of the Biblical text has to start with God, not humans. If you start with God being in control, justifying, sanctifying and glorifying us, then the Bible will reveal the glorious news (gospel) that Christ loved us so much, he died on the cross for our sins, and rose again to show the power of God, and is returning for his people.

 

[newbirth]

Simple fact is, I am right and you are wrong.
Actually you are wrong an most things you post on this forum.
I will pray that you learn the truth.

:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

 

[Utah]

I did not write the Bible. It is the Bible that I quote. Not myself. It is written that it is the fear of the Lord that men depart from evil. Do you believe that verse in the Bible? Also, your reply here is no way an explanation as to what I had said before. Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven. I did not say that. Jesus did. Do you believe Jesus' words here? Can you explain what they mean to you in light of the OSAS sin and still be saved belief?

Once saved always saved for those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, knowing their shortfalls, being sorrowful, asking for forgiveness and doing the best the can while basking in God's grace. Best they can does not mean perfect. Are you perfect? If so, I'd like to shake your hand.

 

[Angela53510]

When we read Hebrews 5:9, we must also read Hebrews chapter 3, too.

It says,

"Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;" (Hebrews 3:12-14).

Did you catch that? The author of Hebrews says, take heed brethren. The author is talking to brethren. He says take heed that none of them have an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God. In other words, unbelievers cannot depart from the living God because they are already departed. I cannot depart from Houston airport unless I am in Houston airport. It's the same line of thought here. The brethren (who obviously know God) cannot depart from the Lord unless they know the Lord. This is why the author continues to say that the believers should not be hardened thru the deceitfulness of sin. This is why the author says we are made partakers of Christ .... IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast until the end.

Also, when you read Romans 10:8-10, you also have to read Romans 11 that follows that says,

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heedlest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off." (Romans 11:20-22).

Here we are told not to be highminded but to fear. Why? It says if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), we are to take heed that he does not spare us also. For we (Gentiles) are told to continue in his goodness otherwise we can be potentially cut off, too.

Interesting that you should mention other texts to go with Hebrews 5:9. In fact, the four commentaries I have all say that the text we need to refer to is Hebrews 2:10

"For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sonsto glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10

Through Jesus' sufferings and the accomplishment of his redemptive mission, Jesus has been perfected by God as the priest of his people and exalted to the divine presence.

"For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever." Hebrews 7:28

This verse also ties into Hebrews 5:9, which is about Jesus being perfect, Jesus being the one who is our high priest, who intercedes for us.

"Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." Romans 8:24

"but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.[SUP]25 [/SUP]Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:24-25

You have to love that word UTTERMOST! That is the Saviour I am trusting! Not my own works, good or bad!

PS. Please read Romans 11 in context! It is written to the Jews, or Israel. Paul is not talking about those who believe losing their salvation, but rather that those who are of the Abrahamic covenant will be cut off, broken off if they do not believe in Jesus. You really need to study some hermeneutics before you come into the Bible forum and continually preach such false doctrines, and totally misquote and twist Scriptures.

 

[Jason0047]

My testimony is that I was a defeated and scared believer before I began to really read the Scriptures, and to understand that God saves us eternally, because he is sovereign.

Do you know what sovereign means, Jason?

"The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will (see Eph. 1:11). His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted (see Isa. 46:11); nothing takes Him by surprise. The sovereignty of God is not merely that God has the power and right to govern all things, but that He does so, always and without exception. In other words, God is not merely sovereign de jure (in principle), but sovereign de facto (in practice)."

http://www.theopedia.com/Sovereignty_of_God

"The sovereignty of God means that He has total control of all things past, present and future. Nothing happens that is out of His knowledge and control. All things are either caused by Him or allowed by Him for His own purposes and through His perfect will and timing (Romans 11:36; 1 Corinthians 8:6). He is the only absolute and omnipotent ruler of the universe and is sovereign in creation, providence and redemption."

"If there is any element of the universe that is outside of his authority, then he no longer is God over all. In other words, sovereignty belongs to deity. Sovereignty is a natural attribute of the Creator. God owns what he makes, and he rules what he owns." – R.C. Sproul -

See more at: Sovereignty of God Definition

God is in control, not us. That is true for redemption as it is for creation, and for all things in this universe.

As a defeated Arminian Christian, because I attended churches that taught only that, I gradually moved away from God, because I knew I had continued to sin after I was saved. True, I repented, confessed those sins, but I knew that it was never enough!

And I was right! We can never obey Jesus, follow him closely enough in our own strength to deserve salvation. That is why Jesus is the one who justifies, and it gives us peace with God.

"Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Romans 8:1

That is the moment God legally justified or declared us to be right before him. The Greek is most instructive in this verse.

"Δικαιωθέντες οὖν ἐκ πίστεως εἰρήνην ἔχομεν πρὸς τὸν θεὸν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ," Romans 5:1

Δικαιωθέντες, (dikaiothentes) is an aorist passive participle. Aorist points to a completed action. Passive means theologically that God has done the action upon the subject. Therefore, it is GOD who justifies, not us, not our works, our obedience or our ability to follow God.

The outcome of God justifying or declaring us righteous, is that we have peace with God. I know the day that I realized it was God that saved me, not myself, I had peace that had eluded me for 25 years, under the erroneous and heinous doctrine of losing your salvation by your actions.

My husband continued to believe himself unworthy of being saved, and also drifted far from God. Fortunately, we found a Biblical pastor to sit under, and he preached over and over that we are eternally saved and cannot lose our salvation, based on passage after passage. My husband became a different person when he realized he could not earn his way to heaven by his works. He went back to reading his Bible, to witnessing, to proclaiming that GOD SAVES. It was the true meaning of freedom in Jesus Christ.

So sorry you had a bad experience and thought you were saved when you weren't, backslide from your supposed salvation, and now come on here constantly teaching bad doctrine that we can lose our salvation, based on poor exegesis of the Biblical text. But the fact is, every time you examine these supposed proof texts for losing your salvation, the Greek does not support it.

Neither does the English for that matter, but because English is a less complex language than Greek, it is easier to twist than the Greek, especially since you are working from a translation with translators biases, rather than the original language.

The "plain" meaning of the Biblical text has to start with God, not humans. If you start with God being in control, justifying, sanctifying and glorifying us, then the Bible will reveal the glorious news (gospel) that Christ loved us so much, he died on the cross for our sins, and rose again to show the power of God, and is returning for his people.

While I am not against the Greek, I believe God can communicate to us clearly without the aid of knowing the Greek. God is simple and does require us to jump thru hoops to understand what He wants us to know. The poor man who picks up the Bible can know the Word of God just as easily as the person who has the aid of tools on the internet. We also cannot know Greek with 100%% certainty because it is a dead language. God is not going to hold me accountable for not knowing Greek. He will hold me accountable for what the Word says plainly in my own language. I have provided two Biblical examples that clearly refute the false teaching of Eternal Security. For these two verses cleary tell us that a person has to continue with God or they can be cut off. OSAS is against not only the Bible but real life. Since when was God ever against real life? From what I know of Scripture, Jesus favored using real life examples to illustrate spiritual truth. If OSAS is as important of a teaching as you seem to think it is, then why can't it be made into a parable or real life example? Oh, and I believe God is sovereign, too. But God does not force salvation upon people, though. If a believer changes their minds in wanting to be with God, you are saying that such a thing is no longer possible. That God just forces salvation upon folks. I don't believe that. The Scriptures say choose this day whom ye will serve. Not... I am chosen this day and I don't need to worry about serving. No man can serve two masters. For he will hate the one and love the other. OSAS is a false doctrine that promotes immorality and not holiness. This is evident by looking at it's fruits and what it teaches.

 

[Jason0047]

Once saved always saved for those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and savior, knowing their shortfalls, being sorrowful, asking for forgiveness and doing the best the can while basking in God's grace. Best they can does not mean perfect. Are you perfect? If so, I'd like to shake your hand.

Christ calls us to be perfect as His heavenly Father is perfect. See, your statement here is promoting imperfection. You are admitting defeat. You are saying... are you perfect? Implying that all people are never going to be perfect or holy. That nobody is going to turn from their evil ways. But the Scriptures say, "Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord." This is not Works Salvationsim. No, no. Most certainly not. This is Relationshipism. When a person has a relationship with Jesus Christ for real, things change in their heart and life when they repent and accept Him. They no longer run with the wicked as they once did. They no longer desire to sin as a way of life. Will they possibly make mistakes every now and then? Sure, David made some really big mistakes. But David did not continue in his sin of murder and adultery. David repented of those sins. Therein lies the difference. Jesus said, "The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation and shall condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; ..." (Matthew 12:41). In Jonah chapter, we see that the Ninevites repentance is defined as turning from their evil ways (John 3:10).

 

[Jason0047]

Interesting that you should mention other texts to go with Hebrews 5:9. In fact, the four commentaries I have all say that the text we need to refer to is Hebrews 2:10

"For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sonsto glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering." Hebrews 2:10

Through Jesus' sufferings and the accomplishment of his redemptive mission, Jesus has been perfected by God as the priest of his people and exalted to the divine presence.

"For the law appoints men in their weakness as high priests, but the word of the oath, which came later than the law, appoints a Son who has been made perfect forever." Hebrews 7:28

This verse also ties into Hebrews 5:9, which is about Jesus being perfect, Jesus being the one who is our high priest, who intercedes for us.

"Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died—more than that, who was raised—who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us." Romans 8:24

"but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.[SUP]25 [/SUP]Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them." Hebrews 7:24-25

You have to love that word UTTERMOST! That is the Saviour I am trusting! Not my own works, good or bad!

PS. Please read Romans 11 in context! It is written to the Jews, or Israel. Paul is not talking about those who believe losing their salvation, but rather that those who are of the Abrahamic covenant will be cut off, broken off if they do not believe in Jesus. You really need to study some hermeneutics before you come into the Bible forum and continually preach such false doctrines, and totally misquote and twist Scriptures.

No, the Jews were cut off as a nation in the fact that they rejected their Messiah. Now, this does not mean they will not one day repent as a nation before His return. But the Jews who rejected Jesus were not saved. They were cut off. So being cut off means exactly that. You are twisting the plain straight forward meaning so as to believe in a doctrine that promotes others to live a life of immorality (Whether you live like a saint or not). This is the reality of the doctrine. For people have committed suicide thinking they were saved because of OSAS. Suicide! That's just dark and evil.