The Pope had no answer...do you?

[nogard]

An excellent point, and I too have disagreed with God as to when suffering was unnecessary... now, what options do I have? I can say that God has more information and wisdom than I do... I can say God is evil... or, probably most common, I can say that there isn't a God after all. So, of the resultant worldviews, in which do you find lots of joy? for me, it's the first.

Dan, everyone's experience is a bit different. But for me I didn't have a choice really. If I did have a choice, I'd still be a Christian.

You know from the other thread that this wasn't the only issue that called me to question the truth of God and Christianity, and all that we have discussed between both threads is still not everything. I wanted to continue believing, but I just couldn't anymore. Have you ever wanted to believe in something, but you couldn't? Like...umm...Santa Claus for instance. If I asked you to believe in him again, could you do it? You could try, but even if you wanted to, you know your mind would never allow you to truly believe in Santa Claus. The same happened with me and God. I fought my doubts for so long trying to hold on to my faith in Him, that in the end I realized the only reason I was still believing was because I wanted to believe, and not because I actually believed. My desire to believe was not what left me, it was my ability to believe.

 

[nogard]

Simple answer...

God made us in his image to be there, love, and help other's. Do we do it to our full potential, HAH! of course not! =P lol. Why? Because we put ourselves first...

The people who do the mission trips and go above the call of duty is what we all should be doing as Christians, but are we? nahhhhhh... Technically, that's pretty much what God and Jesus want us to do, give up our own lives and well being for others and let it be contagious love so we all can live as one. I could be wrong though, but thinking big picture and seeing how that kind of mentality and action would really help the world makes me lean towards that solution. But that's where the devil comes in, we're all consumed by the world, our jobs, priorities within our own lives to where we care very little about the well being of others... You can never put the blame on God for ones suffering, God is love and it's up to us to bring his love and light to others. I really don't even know how most of us Christian's even get into heaven... I mean we can live our lives to our full potential but are we living it the way that God really wants us to? If we're all consumed in our own riches and fortunes, how can we as Christian's even go a day knowing that there's someone hungry, dying, sick, or starving out there? Look, I'm a full proof scumbag so I have no room to talk, i'm just opening up some thought for discussion purposes.

God Bless EVERYONE!
-Moose_Almighty-

While I don't agree with everything in that response, I do agree with the idea that we are the change we want to see in this world. We're cozy here in America, fortunate to be born in a part of the world where basic comforts are a standard. Whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or atheist, no one appears to be charging God with the problem of suffering, so it's up to us to do the best we can for our fellow man.

And you make a good point, if you believe in a God that is charging you to help those in need, and you do not make any effort to do such, what does that say about your faith or your sincerity?

 

[newbirth]

Dan, everyone's experience is a bit different. But for me I didn't have a choice really. If I did have a choice, I'd still be a Christian.

You know from the other thread that this wasn't the only issue that called me to question the truth of God and Christianity, and all that we have discussed between both threads is still not everything. I wanted to continue believing, but I just couldn't anymore. Have you ever wanted to believe in something, but you couldn't? Like...umm...Santa Claus for instance. If I asked you to believe in him again, could you do it? You could try, but even if you wanted to, you know your mind would never allow you to truly believe in Santa Claus. The same happened with me and God. I fought my doubts for so long trying to hold on to my faith in Him, that in the end I realized the only reason I was still believing was because I wanted to believe, and not because I actually believed. My desire to believe was not what left me, it was my ability to believe.

you made your choice bro ...who are you blaming for you not being a Christian...???...you took the broad road...you denied the saviour...you did all those things no one forced you to....you can undo them and no one has to force you...but if what you say is true...then you have been given a reprobate mind...

 

[Sirk]

Dan, everyone's experience is a bit different. But for me I didn't have a choice really. If I did have a choice, I'd still be a Christian.

You know from the other thread that this wasn't the only issue that called me to question the truth of God and Christianity, and all that we have discussed between both threads is still not everything. I wanted to continue believing, but I just couldn't anymore. Have you ever wanted to believe in something, but you couldn't? Like...umm...Santa Claus for instance. If I asked you to believe in him again, could you do it? You could try, but even if you wanted to, you know your mind would never allow you to truly believe in Santa Claus. The same happened with me and God. I fought my doubts for so long trying to hold on to my faith in Him, that in the end I realized the only reason I was still believing was because I wanted to believe, and not because I actually believed. My desire to believe was not what left me, it was my ability to believe.

Santa Clause didn't die on a cross for you 2000 years ago in front of a bunch of witness's and then rise again in front of a bunch of witness's...many of which who had a vested interest in that not being true. You made your choice.....belief is a choice as much as love is a choice. You chose to ignore the evidence all around you and disbelieve. You will be without excuse when you stand before Jesus.

 

[Jeff_56]

The pope isn't a Christian? what definition of Christian are you using? I suppose you could say that he isn't saved or isn't right with God... though, I don't think any human can actually make that judgement.

since the papace was always equated with and identical to the scriptural definition of antichrist.

(thay have always been opposed to the true ekkleisa/believers in Jesus, and have consistently and always persecuted them, executed them, martyred them, and denied they were believers, always.)

this site (the owner and all the admins) you've been on a while clearly says they are heretics - i.e. not a part in any way of true christianity.

 

[nogard]

We can't make ourselves believe whatever we want to. You'd think we could but we can't. Like I said, try to believe the Easter Bunny exists, or that your dead grandma is still alive walking the earth. Even if you wanted to believe those things for some weird reason, your mind would not allow you to truly believe it. We can't just believe whatever we want. And that is important to understand.

I'm not trying to blame anyone, I'm just sharing my experience. I didn't have a moment where I rejected or denounced God, what happened was I simply couldn't believe anymore, even though I wanted to. There is a slight difference there in that the first person does not care whether Christianity is true or not, they've decided they want nothing to do with it. The second person has come to a place where they simply can't believe it to be true anymore, and must live with the ramifications of that.

 

[ColinCat]

Santa Clause didn't die on a cross for you 2000 years ago in front of a bunch of witness's and then rise again in front of a bunch of witness's...many of which who had a vested interest in that not being true. You made your choice.....belief is a choice as much as love is a choice. You chose to ignore the evidence all around you and disbelieve. You will be without excuse when you stand before Jesus.

What is this evidence being ignored? I would be keen to see it.

 

[GuessWho]

since the papace was always equated with and identical to the scriptural definition of antichrist.

(thay have always been opposed to the true ekkleisa/believers in Jesus, and have consistently and always persecuted them, executed them, martyred them, and denied they were believers, always.)

this site (the owner and all the admins) you've been on a while clearly says they are heretics - i.e. not a part in any way of true christianity.

The admins believe catholicism is a heresy, but the admins never gave certificates of good/bad christians to people be them you, me or the Pope.

 

[ColinCat]

The ability of humans to make choices doesn't mean that every choice is possible in every situation. So, do you believe that humans have free will? Many atheists don't, which seems very logical to me if only the physical world exists.

Hmm I don't know about the free will thing. I only have a certain amount of it. Dictated by certain parameters. I can't use my free will to jump 100ft. Nor can I use my free will to run 100 mile per hour. My body doesn't allow for such activities.

Circumstances allow me to do things. I can if I want, exercise my free will to watch A Clockwork Orange on DVD tonight, but if Stanley Kubrick never made the film then the option wouldn't be there to see it.

I have free will to an extent, although circumstances limit the choices.

 

[nogard]

Hmm I don't know about the free will thing. I only have a certain amount of it. Dictated by certain parameters. I can't use my free will to jump 100ft. Nor can I use my free will to run 100 mile per hour. My body doesn't allow for such activities.

Circumstances allow me to do things. I can if I want, exercise my free will to watch A Clockwork Orange on DVD tonight, but if Stanley Kubrick never made the film then the option wouldn't be there to see it.

I have free will to an extent, although circumstances limit the choices.

That's a good point. I mean, what is the extent of free will? If I murdered a man, would I not also be murdering the millions of free will choices that he would have made in life had I not murdered him, which in turn would have created millions of other free will choices for those who would have associated with the man. We perform actions all the time that limits or constricts other people's abilities to choose. And as ColinCat said, our own bodies limit what we can do with our free will. Our bodies, mind, and environment all give us limitations to our ability to exercise our free will. Yet none of this is considered a violation of free will. I can't do super large sums in my head. I can't see through things. I can't move things with my mind. God could have allowed me to, but he chose not to give me that ability. Yet that is not a violation of free will. So what if God didn't give us the ability to be so sinful? What if he didn't give us our ability to hate? Would that be a violation of free will? If yes, why?

basically, free will is our ability to choose between the options given us within the capacity we are able to. Removing a sinful nature from us would not violate that. It would be just one of the many limitations to our abilities.

 

[GuessWho]

We can't make ourselves believe whatever we want to. You'd think we could but we can't. Like I said, try to believe the Easter Bunny exists, or that your dead grandma is still alive walking the earth. Even if you wanted to believe those things for some weird reason, your mind would not allow you to truly believe it. We can't just believe whatever we want. And that is important to understand.

The comparisons you make are not the happiest ones. Man always wondered about the meaning of life and always sought answers that, I hope we both agree, are way deeper and go beyond the "dilemma" of whether....the easter bunny exists or not.

I'm not trying to blame anyone, I'm just sharing my experience. I didn't have a moment where I rejected or denounced God, what happened was I simply couldn't believe anymore, even though I wanted to. There is a slight difference there in that the first person does not care whether Christianity is true or not, they've decided they want nothing to do with it. The second person has come to a place where they simply can't believe it to be true anymore, and must live with the ramifications of that.

It is difficult to cope with the absurdity of life. For me is difficult too -this is why I chose to believe Christ.

Also, for me, the spectrum of absurdity comprises not only sufferance, but our daily survival too. I say survival and not life because this is what the short terrestrial existence is for me - survival, systematic and repeated satisfaction of our instincts. This doesn't make any sense to me. A bunch of people get born, strive to become successful and then they die. And then another row of people come and then they die and so on. To me this is absurd.

The salvation that Christ brings is salvation from death. But what kind of death?

 

[GuessWho]

Hmm I don't know about the free will thing. I only have a certain amount of it. Dictated by certain parameters. I can't use my free will to jump 100ft. Nor can I use my free will to run 100 mile per hour. My body doesn't allow for such activities.

Circumstances allow me to do things. I can if I want, exercise my free will to watch A Clockwork Orange on DVD tonight, but if Stanley Kubrick never made the film then the option wouldn't be there to see it.

I have free will to an extent, although circumstances limit the choices.

You brought up the movie A Clockwork Orange! I think that is a good example on what means to suspend someone's freedom to harm others.

 

[ColinCat]

You brought up the movie A Clockwork Orange! I think that is a good example on what means to suspend someone's freedom to harm others.

But he himself ends up being the victim of someone else's free will lol

 

[GuessWho]

But he himself ends up being the victim of someone else's free will lol

Yes. We would be like the protagonist of the movie if God took away our freedom.

 

[Dan_473]

Dan, everyone's experience is a bit different. But for me I didn't have a choice really. If I did have a choice, I'd still be a Christian.

You know from the other thread that this wasn't the only issue that called me to question the truth of God and Christianity, and all that we have discussed between both threads is still not everything. I wanted to continue believing, but I just couldn't anymore. Have you ever wanted to believe in something, but you couldn't? Like...umm...Santa Claus for instance. If I asked you to believe in him again, could you do it? You could try, but even if you wanted to, you know your mind would never allow you to truly believe in Santa Claus. The same happened with me and God. I fought my doubts for so long trying to hold on to my faith in Him, that in the end I realized the only reason I was still believing was because I wanted to believe, and not because I actually believed. My desire to believe was not what left me, it was my ability to believe.

good points, and no, I couldn't believe in Santa (though of course, there was a real St. Nick)
I understand that you don't believe in certain things... what do you believe in? Is there a common name for your worldview?

To put it another way, of the resultant worldviews, in which do you find lots of joy? If you don't find much joy in any of them, then I'm sad to hear that...

 

[Dan_473]

since the papace was always equated with and identical to the scriptural definition of antichrist.

(thay have always been opposed to the true ekkleisa/believers in Jesus, and have consistently and always persecuted them, executed them, martyred them, and denied they were believers, always.)

this site (the owner and all the admins) you've been on a while clearly says they are heretics - i.e. not a part in any way of true christianity.

I agree that many people here on CC don't think the pope is a Christian... I can't ask all of them all at once, so I'm asking you, what definition of Christian are you using?

 

[ColinCat]

Yes. We would be like the protagonist of the movie if God took away our freedom.

You don't know that, that's assumption.

What godless place do you know of where people attack and kill people for no reason.

The middle east is exempt for you to use as an example... Because those lunatics DO attack and kill people.

 

[nogard]

good points, and no, I couldn't believe in Santa (though of course, there was a real St. Nick)
I understand that you don't believe in certain things... what do you believe in? Is there a common name for your worldview?

To put it another way, of the resultant worldviews, in which do you find lots of joy? If you don't find much joy in any of them, then I'm sad to hear that...

As Christians we are taught that our joy is found in Christ and our hope in the life to come. If there is no life to come, if this is all there is, then this life is where our hope and joy is found. Our family, our friends. Making the most of this one shot we get on earth.

In a way, an atheist and a Christian believe the same thing in that regard. We only get one life to live on this earth, so let's make the most of it. Live like your life means something, because even if it doesn't mean something to anyone else, it still means something to you. I believe we can still have a purpose, even if we are the ones creating it. And I still find joy in things I found joy in before.

I mean look, the idea of not living forever in heaven kind of stinks, but it offsets the idea of people burning in hell forever (I know not every Christian believes that last part but just saying).

But I would be interested Dan in your thoughts on post #150 about what free will actually means.

 

[CRC]

Bad Things Do Not Come From God
The Bible makes it clear that God never intended that we suffer this way. He placed the original couple in a paradise home that was free from pain and suffering. (Genesis 1:28) No doubt you well know how things went wrong: An invisible spirit creature, who came to be known as the Devil and Satan, induced Adam and Eve to disobey God. (Genesis, chapter 3; Revelation 12:9) By doing this, Adam condemned all his offspring to sin and its devastating effects.—Romans 5:12.Clearly, it was not God who brought evil upon mankind, but man himself. (Deuteronomy 32:5; Ecclesiastes 7:29) Indeed, all the bad things that people suffer today—the sickness, the death, the wars, the injustices—resulted from Adam’s willful act of disobedience. Furthermore, we are all subject to what the Bible calls “time and unforeseen occurrence.” (Ecclesiastes 9:11) Both the wicked and the righteous experience freak accidents and tragedies. The Good News however is that God has set a time and a day to “Make all things New”. All of the evil and suffering will be gone and gone for good!!! ( Revelations 21:1-5)

 

[ThomistColin]

neither one of those sons of satan in the picture is a christian in the sense of abiding in christ. they are both ravenously anti-christian and do more harm to the souls of men than can be imagined - many millioins of times more harm than hitler and all the nazis ever did.

the exposes of roman abomination are already stated clearly in scripture and on this site in thread(s) by RoboOp the owner, and ALL the ADMINS, and
promoting the abomination / heresy/ roman catholicism/ is worse than a crime against humanity as well as against site RULES, it is directly opposed to the Creator and Yahshua.

Now the Orthodox are evil?!