Will there actually be a Rapture?

[GuessWho]

If you believe in the literal coming of Christ, and a literal resurrection of the dead Saints, and a literal transformation of the living Saints (resurrection from earthy flesh to glorified body),
then you have just affirmed rapture.

Of course I believe in a literal coming of Christ and a literal resurrection. How many times do I have to repeat the article from the Creed that says "I wait for the resurrection of the dead" (and not for the rapture)?

To deny rapture, you have to affirm an allegorical return of Christ, and an allegorical Resurrection.
People really do have this view, but I hope you are not among them.

To deny rapture is to deny the particular interpretation that some sects gave to a particular passage in Thesallonians. That's what is to deny rapture.

 

[GuessWho]

Rapture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Ukorin]

Then debate Dispensational Premillenialism, not the word rapture. Obviously you haven't been reading my posts if you came away with anything else.

I defend the "rapture" because I defend a literal Coming of Christ, and oppose Dominion Theology, Postmillenialism, and Unitarianist/Universalist allegorical interpretations.

If you fight against those heresies alongside me, then don't fight the word "rapture", as it is simply a part of the Resurrection,
but fight against those who allegorize "rapture" to being:
"a moment of clarity and enlightenment for the human race"
or "the time when Christ gains dominion over the world through his avatar the Church, in her expanding her government over all nations through conversion and moral progress",
or "the idea that all humans will eventually be in rapture and bliss in the afterlife".


Do you understand what all my posts were saying now? If not, re-read please.

Also, you should get a base of knowledge of the eschatological views before fighting them,
as you were targeting pre-trib "escape" theory as the only "rapture" view,
and not recognizing that only one of the views holds to that,
and the majority of Protestants are either Amillenial or Historic Premillenial.
Learn those phrases too.

 

[GuessWho]

Also, you should get a base of knowledge of the eschatological views before fighting them,
as you were targeting pre-trib "escape" theory as the only "rapture" view,
and not recognizing that only one of the views holds to that,
and the majority of Protestants are either Amillenial or Historic Premillenial.
Learn those phrases too.

Right now I don't have the time and desire to study the variety of eschatological views of protestant sects. I am interested in what the early church believed.

 

[Ukorin]

Right now I don't have the time and desire to study the variety of eschatological views of protestant sects. I am interested in what the early church believed.

To understand any of it, you need labels, because the early Church did not agree with each other over eschatology.

Sorry, but nearly a third of global Protestants are amillenialists, just like the Catholic Church. You would do well to understand that not all Catholics or even Catholic Church fathers have been in agreement over such things.

Your lack of study will just make you divisive towards others. Gain some understanding rather than just making enemies out of your brethren.

It would take you literally 10 minutes to learn the 4 main views of eschatology,
and perhaps another 5 mins to understand the 3 variations of Premillenialism.
Is 15 minutes too much time for you to bother with gaining an understanding of this topic?

 

[Apostol2013]

Amen,I also believe in the pretrib rapture. Thanks for emphasizing the saints are already in heaven at the end of the GT.
"ANGELS GATHER.....FROM HEAVEN."

You have it all wrong that is the gathering of the saints after the great tribulation thank you come again

 

[PlainWord]

I don't really know the answer to this question, so I'd like some Biblical insight into it. Please provide a full explanation of the doctrine if you are familiar (I'm pretty blank on it), and provide solid Biblical evidence for or against the event as you are able.

Is it a Biblical doctrine or not, and what Bible verses talk about it?

Please note this well:
I am not starting this thread as a place to debate about when the rapture will happen (should it do so), but about whether the rapture will happen. Actually, I don't even mean this post to be for debate at all. All I want is to know the Truth from people who know.

I know that the timing of this event is a significant subject of debate among many of my Christian Brothers and Sisters, but for me it is good enough just to say that Jesus will win in the end! Ultimately, I don't really care when it will happen if it does, because I'm saved either way, and will never let go of Jesus... rapture or no rapture... be it Pre, Post, or Middle Tribulation. The time frame or existence of this phenomenon will not affect my Salvation, only the hour at which I meet my Lord. Hence, let all debates on the time-frame of this event be saved for different threads... I do not care when it happens, but only if it happens.

I want to believe the right thing about this doctrine, so please tell me what it is. I am completely open to either possibility (rapture or no rapture) provided I have the proof. Know that you have an unbiased/impartial audience in me. I only judge by the Bible which I hear and read, and no other standard will I use...

I am aware of only one calling up of the living whereby they don't have to die first before being with God. It is discussed in 1 Cor 15:50-58 and again in 1 Thes 4:13-18. This event happens on the final day of earth. The Lord God Himself returns and those still alive and remaining are taken up to meet God. Jesus gathers, God "raptures."

 

[presidente]

I Corinthians 15 tells us of being made alive at Christ's coming, at the parousia. The Bible also talks about Christ destroying that wiked one at the parousia.

When Jesus comes back, according to Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I don't see any evidence in the Bible for a pre-trib rapture. The Bible shows us that Jesus comes back and executes judgment on the wicked when He returns to give the saints rest.

 

[PlainWord]

I Corinthians 15 tells us of being made alive at Christ's coming, at the parousia. The Bible also talks about Christ destroying that wiked one at the parousia.

When Jesus comes back, according to Paul's letter to the Thessalonians, the dead in Christ will rise first and we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I don't see any evidence in the Bible for a pre-trib rapture. The Bible shows us that Jesus comes back and executes judgment on the wicked when He returns to give the saints rest.

Actually, Paul says God returns here, not Christ. Christ is already here by this point in time. God brings those asleep in Jesus.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Christ never breathes a word about Catching anyone up into the clouds to meet Him. All references to Christ's return make clear that He gathers those left alive after the Tribulation. Christ doesn't rapture them and He does not translate the living from physical bodies to spiritual bodies upon His return. He does this when God returns 1,000 years later.

 

[presidente]

Actually, Paul says God returns here, not Christ. Christ is already here by this point in time. God brings those asleep in Jesus.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

Christ never breathes a word about Catching anyone up into the clouds to meet Him.

Paul does in the very passage you refer to.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(NKJV)

All references to Christ's return make clear that He gathers those left alive after the Tribulation. Christ doesn't rapture them and He does not translate the living from physical bodies to spiritual bodies upon His return. He does this when God returns 1,000 years later.

I Corinthians 15 shows us that men are made alive at Christ's coming. II Thessalonians 1 shows that He gives the saints rest when He returns executing judgment on the wicked.

 

[PlainWord]

Paul does in the very passage you refer to.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. [SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. [SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. [SUP]18 [/SUP]Therefore comfort one another with these words.
(NKJV)




I Corinthians 15 shows us that men are made alive at Christ's coming. II Thessalonians 1 shows that He gives the saints rest when He returns executing judgment on the wicked.

The "LORD" Paul is referring to is God the Father, not Jesus the Son. God is bringing the souls of those who have died in Christ. Christ is already on earth for the Millennial reign and it is Christ who raises them and those left alive up to meet God coming down at the end of time.

For the Lord Himself - this is God!!!

Whose trumpet sounds? the trumpet of God

I Corinthians 15 shows us that men are made alive at Christ's coming.

No it doesn't say that!!!!

Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His (God's) coming.

The "HIS" here is GOD. Paul is horrible with his use of personal pronouns. I know it is confusing, but trust me, Christ is already here on the Last Day of earth. So either believe there is no millennial reign of Christ or believe that it is God bringing the dead after the millennium. Christ CANNOT be bringing them with him any time before the last day because that would conflict with at least 5 other passages that I know of, including these.

John 6:

[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

[SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”


How many last days are there????? The resurrection is on the last day. Christ does the resurrecting. How can Christ be in heaven to be coming down in 1 Thes 4 if this is the last day when He is supposed to be on earth already reigning? Do you think he is here reigning for 1,000 years then goes back up to heaven leaving everyone here to return again? How many returns of Christ do you think there are?

 

[PlainWord]

John makes it pretty clear that the rest of the dead don't live again until the 1,000 years are over.

Rev 20:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. [SUP]5 [/SUP]But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

[presidente]

Of course I believe in a literal coming of Christ and a literal resurrection. How many times do I have to repeat the article from the Creed that says "I wait for the resurrection of the dead" (and not for the rapture)?

What about the New Testament? Isn't I Thessalonians as good as a creed in your opinion? Paul says that the dead in Christ will rise first and that those who are alive and remain will be raptured together to meet the Lord in the air. The KJV says 'caught up.' 'Rapture' comes from the word used in this verse in the Latin translation.

To deny rapture is to deny the particular interpretation that some sects gave to a particular passage in Thesallonians. That's what is to deny rapture.

That is a popular misconception. It's kind of like talking about being a Christian, but not a born-again Christian. Not born again to someone who believes in being born again means unregenerate, and unbeliever. Some people think that a 'born again Christian' means a certain stream within evangelicalism That that's not what it means Biblically or to the people who use the term.

And people speak of a pre-trib rapture, mid-trib rapture, or post trib rapture, so it isn't specifically tied to the concept of people disappearing 7 years before the Second Coming, leaving airplanes to crash, piles of clothes, and empty day car centers while the rest of the world doesn't know what's going on.

The question is not whether there will be a rapture, but when Jesus is going to catch up the saints into the air, and what the situation will be like. Will every eye behold Him coming with His saints? Or will there be piles of clothes and missing people while unbelievers try to figure out what is going on?

 

[presidente]

The "LORD" Paul is referring to is God the Father, not Jesus the Son. God is bringing the souls of those who have died in Christ. Christ is already on earth for the Millennial reign and it is Christ who raises them and those left alive up to meet God coming down at the end of time.

For the Lord Himself - this is God!!!

Paul tends to use 'God' for the Father and 'Lord' for Jesus, though quoting the Old Testament, though he'll use translations that render YHWH with the equivalent of 'Lord.' I Corinthians 12:4-6 is a good passage to show how Paul often uses 'God' and 'Lord' in a distinct manner.

I have a question for you. Do you have a specific passage that leads you to interpret these other passages as the Lord coming to earth as being about God-- the Father, I assume you mean-- coming to earth? Where is the on-ramp for the circular highway of reasoning? I read passages like this as about the return of Christ. There are specific passages like II Thessalonians 1 that tells us that Jesus is returning. Acts 1 is another passage.

Whose trumpet sounds? the trumpet of God

And how is this in any way support for your theory? Why would Paul switch from 'Lord' to 'God' in the same sentence like this if he weren't referring to the same return of Christ that he refers to elsewhere?

Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His (God's) coming.

The "HIS" here is GOD. Paul is horrible with his use of personal pronouns.

Could it be that you are terrible with your personal pronouns, and not Paul? What you are arguing doesn't make sense in context. In the immediate context before this verse, Paul doesn't refer to God, so why would 'His' refer to God? It makes no sense.

Look at this verse from I Corinthians 15 and the one that follows.

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Notice that 'He' in verse 24 refers to Christ, who will deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father. This is really specific. It doesn't make much sense to switch 'his' and 'he' to be two different people. It doesn't make sense to say that 'his' in 'Christ's at His coming" not refer to Christ. You sure seem to have an agenda when you look at these texts.

I know it is confusing, but trust me, Christ is already here on the Last Day of earth.

What you present is confusing, but I'm not going to let my eschatology rest on trusting someone that I encountered on the Internet.

You seem to have this idea that 'the last day' refers to one 24 hour time period? From what I've read 'day' can refer to a period of time, depending on the context. Do you think there will be literally one last 24 hour time period, after which neither God nor creation will exist? God will always exist, and the saints will be given eternal life. So reading 'the last day' so narrowly and literally doesn't make sense.

Doesn't it make more sense to read 'the last day' in a looser sense (justified by the use of the term in Hebrew) than to try to make the pronoun 'he' and 'his' refer to God the Father when it doesn't make sense in context? Is there any other evidence for these passages referring to the Father coming to earth besides reading it into pronouns like 'He' and 'His'?

So either believe there is no millennial reign of Christ or believe that it is God bringing the dead after the millennium. Christ CANNOT be bringing them with him any time before the last day because that would conflict with at least 5 other passages that I know of, including these.

John 6:

[SUP]40 [/SUP]And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

[SUP]44 [/SUP]No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

[SUP]54 [/SUP]Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:[SUP]23 [/SUP]Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”


How many last days are there????? The resurrection is on the last day.

I think you are jumping through hoops with your interpretation to try to make 'the last day' refer to a 24 hour time period when it doesn't have to mean that... linguistically I mean.

Christ does the resurrecting. How can Christ be in heaven to be coming down in 1 Thes 4 if this is the last day when He is supposed to be on earth already reigning?

Why do you think He is already supposed to be on earth reigning at that time? I take the passage to refer to when Christ comes down to earth to reign.

Do you think he is here reigning for 1,000 years then goes back up to heaven leaving everyone here to return again? How many returns of Christ do you think there are?

I don't understand why you ask these questions. Why would Jesus have to come here multiple times if I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15 refer to His coming? And by His coming, I mean Jesus' coming.

 

[presidente]

If you believe in the literal coming of Christ, and a literal resurrection of the dead Saints, and a literal transformation of the living Saints (resurrection from earthy flesh to glorified body),
then you have just affirmed rapture.

Assuming the individual believes that the transformed saints will be 'caught up' like the Bible says we will when we are transformed.

 

[Ukorin]

Assuming the individual believes that the transformed saints will be 'caught up' like the Bible says we will when we are transformed.

True.
I'm not sure what his view was. I don't think he even knew. It seemed more like a general denial, without giving an alternative.

 

[Ukorin]

The question is not whether there will be a rapture, but when Jesus is going to catch up the saints into the air, and what the situation will be like. Will every eye behold Him coming with His saints? Or will there be piles of clothes and missing people while unbelievers try to figure out what is going on?

Exactly. If the unbelievers have such a sign beforehand, it means that Judgement is not imminent.
That's the opposite message than what is given in Scripture.
If rapture is imminent, then Judgement must be just as instantly imminent.
Rather than the Church being caught off guard, it is those who are asleep who are caught off guard. Those who are awake will see the signs,
and the rest will be calling "Peace, Peace, Peace is upon us", ignoring the signs.

 

[popeye]

You have it all wrong that is the gathering of the saints after the great tribulation thank you come again

Yes it says 'AFTER'. We all can see that.
Specifically FROM HEAVEN. as the word states.( they are IN HEAVEN ...during the gt...connect the dots)

 

[popeye]

The rapture is the gathering of the bride by Jesus..
Mat 25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

 

[Ukorin]

The rapture is the gathering of the bride by Jesus..
Mat 25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

Take a parable literally, but not a clear section?
That's like those that say that we should interpret the teaching sections in light of the prophetic sections,
rather than letting the clear teaching sections guide us in interpreting the prophetic.

No point in debating, as you seperate the Church from Israel. Until you recognize that all salvation is through Christ, and that all those Redeemed are part of His Body, and that His Body is the Church... We cannot see eye to eye on prophecy.