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C
clittle
Guest
one last (hopefully helpful) suggestion for you.
perhaps a study on Pelagianism will resolve the conundrums you seem to keep finding yourself in, concerning law & grace
(faith).
galatians 3-12
perhaps a study on Pelagianism will resolve the conundrums you seem to keep finding yourself in, concerning law & grace
(faith).galatians 3-12
Oh, I see, in order to become a mature man, I must agree with your flawed interpretation of Gal 3? No thanks, I guess I'll just remain as a little child...
C
clittle
Guest
no. you needn't agree with anything flawed. your immaturity is here:
please don't stoop so low. it's unbecoming.
i said no such thing.
you are in bondage to bitterness my friend.
too much Law perhaps?
how can one reason with people who insist you have said the law is abolished (not the old covenant)?
The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase.
please explain this simple verse above. why increase?
Hi
For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. Rom7:6
The penalty of sin, brings great fear of sin, and fear of sin brings much allurement to sin. Hence Rom 7:6 & Rom 5:20. If you live under the law the penalty for sin remains ,if you live under grace the penalty has been removed. Hence as Paul says:
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom 6:14
Good subject to discuss, God Bless
Hi
It's good to quote to verse 11:
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
Rom7:7-11
Paul is speaking in the above of his time as a Pharisee when he was under a law of righteousness before God. The law revealed his sin, but he also became a worse sinner once he was convicted by the law and tried to attain to a law of righteousness. Hence, all manner of concupiscence was aroused in him through his knowledge of the commandment. ''Thou shalt not covet''
C
clittle
Guest
Exodus 31:13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the Lord, who makes you holy.
Leviticus 19:30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.
Leviticus 23:16 Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the Lord.
Leviticus 23:24 “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts.
Leviticus 19:3 “‘Each of you must respect your mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 23:32 It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.”
Exodus 35:3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Leviticus 23:38 These offerings are in addition to those for the Lord’s Sabbaths and in addition to your gifts and whatever you have vowed and all the freewill offerings you give to the Lord.
Leviticus 23:39 “‘So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the Lord for seven days; the first day is a day of Sabbath rest, and the eighth day also is a day of Sabbath rest.
Exodus 16:25 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”
29 Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.”
Genesis 41:29 Seven years of great abundance are coming throughout the land of Egypt,
Genesis 41:30 but seven years of famine will follow them. Then all the abundance in Egypt will be forgotten, and the famine will ravage the land.
It takes great faith to observed the Sabbaths. The High Sabbath, you must not do any work for seven years and which the Hebrews were able to do because of the seven years of famine, but they had gathered it in for seven years before. Just imagine not having no electricity for seven years if everyone had observed the Sabbaths. Now that will take great faith, especially during the winter time. God know that we are weak and unable to put our trust in Him; maybe for a day Sabbath, it will be easy to follow, but the High Sabbath, with men this is impossible, but with God, He can make it possible by making a great famine for seven years and which there's no choice but to observe it.
Leviticus 19:30 “‘Observe my Sabbaths and have reverence for my sanctuary. I am the Lord.
Leviticus 23:16 Count off fifty days up to the day after the seventh Sabbath, and then present an offering of new grain to the Lord.
Leviticus 23:24 “Say to the Israelites: ‘On the first day of the seventh month you are to have a day of sabbath rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts.
Leviticus 19:3 “‘Each of you must respect your mother and father, and you must observe my Sabbaths. I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 23:32 It is a day of sabbath rest for you, and you must deny yourselves. From the evening of the ninth day of the month until the following evening you are to observe your sabbath.”
Exodus 35:3 Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”
Leviticus 23:38 These offerings are in addition to those for the Lord’s Sabbaths and in addition to your gifts and whatever you have vowed and all the freewill offerings you give to the Lord.
Leviticus 23:39 “‘So beginning with the fifteenth day of the seventh month, after you have gathered the crops of the land, celebrate the festival to the Lord for seven days; the first day is a day of Sabbath rest, and the eighth day also is a day of Sabbath rest.
Exodus 16:25 “Eat it today,” Moses said, “because today is a sabbath to the Lord. You will not find any of it on the ground today. Six days you are to gather it, but on the seventh day, the Sabbath, there will not be any.”
29 Bear in mind that the Lord has given you the Sabbath; that is why on the sixth day he gives you bread for two days. Everyone is to stay where they are on the seventh day; no one is to go out.”
Genesis 41:29 Seven years of great abundance are coming throughout the land of Egypt,
Genesis 41:30 but seven years of famine will follow them. Then all the abundance in Egypt will be forgotten, and the famine will ravage the land.
It takes great faith to observed the Sabbaths. The High Sabbath, you must not do any work for seven years and which the Hebrews were able to do because of the seven years of famine, but they had gathered it in for seven years before. Just imagine not having no electricity for seven years if everyone had observed the Sabbaths. Now that will take great faith, especially during the winter time. God know that we are weak and unable to put our trust in Him; maybe for a day Sabbath, it will be easy to follow, but the High Sabbath, with men this is impossible, but with God, He can make it possible by making a great famine for seven years and which there's no choice but to observe it.
Sure you have, you have said that the Law is done away. You have said we are no longer obliged to obey the Law. If the Law no longer exists then Paul says there is no sin imputed where there is no Law and if one does not sin, one does not need the sacrifice of Christ. One does not need the blood of Christ to remit sin...
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Oh and notice the phrase bolded and underlined. Oops, how'd that get in there?
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Oh, so that is why he is speaking in the present tense?
Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
And realizing why he still needs the sacrifice of Christ?
Yes, Paul was saying that everything that is under the laws, must be purged from its life to receive forgiveness, but now we doesn't have to destroy another life so that we can live; and beside, our sacrifice has became worthless, and without a worthy sacrifice, then we must automatically die, and we didn't had a firstborn to let God keep that was worthy, to show that we can be redeemable.
Jeremiah 6:20 What do I care about incense from Sheba or sweet calamus from a distant land? Your burnt offerings are not acceptable; your sacrifices do not please me.”
Though Paul appears to speak in the present tense, he is in the verses you quoted speaking of the result of living under a law of righteousness as a Pharisee. In Rom 7:14 he says for example he is sold as a slave to sin, in Romans 6:16 he says if you are a slave to sin this leads to death. Therefore if he is speaking of his life as a Christian in ch7:14-25 he is condemning himself
If Paul is speaking of his life as a Christian in Rom 7:7-11 then it must be true that all manner of concupiscence is aroused in the Christian, leading to them being condemned once the law comes to them. Do you believe that to be true?
For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death.
But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
the Law has become our tutor
we are no longer under a tutor
how do you make sense of this?
Didn't read this?
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/107457-sabbath-7th-day-abolished-12.html#post1886169
The Law that was our tutor was the Law of animal sacrifices. It taught us that there was coming a Sacrifice that COULD remit sin. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin, they simply served as a reminder of the need for a Sacrifice that could.
notice yahweh the creator spoke with moses directly and also likewise gives him detailed instructions directly.
yahweh's instructions are certainly final, perfect, complete(as perfectly complete as they need to be).
yahweh's plan of yahshua(yahweh's salvation) is the object , so to speak, of his plan and all his instructions for life to all who receive life.
results ? whoever has yahshua has life. whoever does not have yahshua does not have life. simple. final. total authority.
natural, as yahshua always obeyed yahweh, those who abide(on going, through all) in yahshua also obey yahweh, 'naturally' by grace in him.
sinners argue against him, reject him and his disciples, and have a multitude (never ending) of excuses. such it is. such it will stay until yahshua returns (and then even then maybe some!)..... as it is written "those who are wicked doing become even more wicked doing, and those who are righteous doing become even more righteous doing.". joyously, rest in him. shalom .
For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[SUP][a][/SUP] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. Rom 7:6