S
Sirk
Guest
Absolutely! But even so.....There are always areas we need to improve in....in becoming more like Jesus.
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Absolutely! But even so.....There are always areas we need to improve in....in becoming more like Jesus.
God loves repentant sinners....but He loved sinners first too because He sent Jesus to save us while we were yet sinners. I think maybe as long as motives are right that God is pleased with generous givers.....I know He loves cheerful givers......
S
Sirk
Guest
God loves repentant sinners....but He loved sinners first too because He sent Jesus to save us while we were yet sinners. I think maybe as long as motives are right that God is pleased with generous givers.....I know He loves cheerful givers......
I think we mean the same thing. When I think of generosity I think of it in terms of the heart behind it vs the quantity of it.
Just returned from tax filing for 2014. I had a very unusual year in income as it looked like I was Bill Gates this year....o.k. well maybe not that much but it was a big income year since I got laid off of my job I decided I needed to pay off a lot of debt so that I would not have to pay a lot of interest. So I was prepared to pay the IRS. Well all I got to say is that because I paid 10% tithe that instead of paying the IRS $8,000 to $15,000 in taxes this year I ended up getting close to $4,000 refund instead.
I did pay a large amount to the church because of paying the 10% tithe but I gave to other causes they had going on too. I was telling tourist that I am so thankful that I gave the money to the church because had I not it would have gone to the IRS. I said to tourist who would you rather give the money to? Church or IRS.... I know my answer and because of having that deduction God even saw fit to make sure we got money in return which otherwise if I had been selfish would have gone to US government....I know I would rather God use that money and just reinforces my wanting to continue to give to God and help to support His work.
I did pay a large amount to the church because of paying the 10% tithe but I gave to other causes they had going on too. I was telling tourist that I am so thankful that I gave the money to the church because had I not it would have gone to the IRS. I said to tourist who would you rather give the money to? Church or IRS.... I know my answer and because of having that deduction God even saw fit to make sure we got money in return which otherwise if I had been selfish would have gone to US government....I know I would rather God use that money and just reinforces my wanting to continue to give to God and help to support His work.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to JesusLives again.
Your example here is a wonderful tribute to the faithfulness of God to those who obey Him.
J
Jeanna
Guest
Absolutely agree with your statement! We're under the Grace and not the Law. Here is what Paul said in his letter :
“You are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts…. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor. 3:3-6).
Peter even scolded people who wanted the gentiles to obey the laws of Moses:
“Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (Acts 15:10,11)
And an excerpt from Galatians :
"For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Gal. 5:14)
I think this says it all. Whatever we do as Christians, we have to do out of love and not out of obligation. The Law was an obligation to the Jews, a commandment. In other words, - they had to obey it whether their hearts were in it or not. We're not obligated. Everything has to come from our hearts and out of love. So, if someone wants to give 10%, - very good, and if anyone wants to give 50%, - that's his choice too, because whatever you give - you do it from your heart and out of love!
We're free indeed, in Christ Jesus! Praise the Lord for His Sacrifice, for us to be free of any bondage!
government did something right in 1917, didn't they?
http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc506.html
john, you have still neglected to write to me in order to tithe. does the ox not get to eat the grain while he tramples it?
while as far as i am concerned, your debt is paid in full by my Lord Christ Jesus, i am concerned that you are being double minded in affirming that those who minister the gospel should rightfully receive recompense, but when put to the test, completely refusing to extend the grace to me that you call a requirement.
i am ready and waiting to issue you a bill in the amount of 0 dollars and 0 cents, your account having been completely settled on the cross, but i am distraught by your aversion to even accepting this.
No, I have not neglected you, I told you I send my tithe to those doing the work of God. Since I have sent none to you, you many draw your own conclusions.
those conclusions are even more troubling:
- that you have no love for the brethren
- that you reject the one who comes in Christ's name
i'd rather keep on extending grace to you than accept that you have not love and that you reject Christ, if it's all the same to you.
Oh, so you are the one doing the work of God on earth?
Like I said, draw your own conclusions, I have.
I appreciate what the prophet Malachi wrote about this
Malachi 3:10 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP] Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
Malachi didn't "give" a law. His job was to call Israel back to God while they wandered back home from captivity 70 years in Babylon.
I think that's the only place in scriptures where God invites people to test him. I did and that saying applied to me, and still does. .God obviously wants tithers to expect large blessings. People that plop a tip in the plate have no promise, no benefit.
Offerings carry a promise of God paying back, with conditions, such as being joyful in giving, subject to receiving back measure for measure. But the Lord won't accept an offering that is "given" that belongs to the tithe.
The first couple of centuries had the Church meeting in secret, in caves, in tunnels, daring to meet in a home sometimes. The Jews, Romans, and other groups that hated Christians scouted far and wide to find Christians, punishing them, taking their property, taxing them heavily, driving them into poverty, etc. The emperor Constantine stopped that, decreeing that Christians be restored of lands and wealth and left alone. That opened up the building of chapels without the likelihood of them being burned down.
As for your last comment, are you aware that about 7,000 churches in America close each year? Even the Catholics are having to merge congregations (parishes), abandoning cherished old sanctuaries. All closings I am familiar with are due to lack of funds, though I've read of a few splits around the country that emptied buildings. One church I spoke in many times nearby averaged 85 Sunday morning, but meeting only 30% of the budget. Unsustainable! The pastor had to take a night job to support his household, unable to take a dollar from the fund. That's what got me and other lay workers volunteering to teach and preach there and other endangered churches. The pastor said only 5 of them were tithers, compared to over half 10 years ago when they ran 150 per Sunday. Some of the problem is continued unemployment and underemployment. They closed, scattering the people, some giving up on church for now, some finding other congregations. All of us are realizing that without tithing and further responsibility toward a budget they voted in, there is no future in sticking to the old plan of building nice expensive buildings. Churches are for sale, but empty store buildings for rent are preferred. Folding chairs work fine for an hour at a time.
As in the days of ancient Israel, the people scattered due to robbing God according to the prophet (speaking God's word), so it appears to be a few thousand years later in America. I'm not complaining, just informing. Lots of people like to access church resources, but won't support that financially. It takes a real commitment from every bench warmer to sustain pleasant facility with heating, air, lights, water, paint, grounds-keeping, outreach costs, even little things like toilet paper.
7,000 congregations scattered every year!
Are you going hungry or are you in dire need? If so let me know where to send a check otherwise let John and myself pay our tithe in thankfulness and praise to the Lord..... I would not want to think that my brother is going hungry.....
oh goodness, i thank my God for your kindness!
i was, honestly, but i prayed, and trusted, and God saw to my needs, healed my body so that i could be able to provide for myself and my own, and yesterday through His working for me, i even got a job!
i don't ask anything of any of you. i would not, even if i had need, because 'a neighbor nearby is better than a brother far away' and i would rather go hungry than put anyone else out. i know the Lord will provide for me, and i wait on Him.
you can see the invoice ^ price is paid in full.
i only pressed the issue, because if one believes he is obligated by commandment to pay monies to those that do God's work, who am i to deny him opportunity to obey?
and also that hypocrisy should be exposed: if you would teach that it is the right of anyone who ministers for the sake of Christ's name to demand payment, what is it when such a one in fact demands payment, and you refuse? see how quickly what he called 'the commands of God' became insinuated accusations against me and instead of a thing to be obeyed, it was a thing to be judged by his own 'preference' ? even when all i demanded was exactly zero.
but maybe john, you will have use of this invoice when it comes time for you to pay your heavenly taxes, to show all your works to some ethereal auditor? i don't think so, i fully believe blood has covered your needs, but i don't want to be the cause of an unexplained gap in the accounting. so there you have it.
this is to show God's mercy for us: that while He has every right to demand 100% of all that anyone has, even to Israel under the covenant of law He only gave a lesser tithe, and to us under grace His apostles gave no commandment but that giving should not be by compulsion, but out of the purpose of the heart in faithful reply to His goodness, and that what we have affirmed we will do, we are faithful to carry out and do.
He desires mercy, not sacrifice. a gift given with thankfulness and joy, not grudging.
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient,
for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane ..
(1 Timothy 1:8-9)
i was, honestly, but i prayed, and trusted, and God saw to my needs, healed my body so that i could be able to provide for myself and my own, and yesterday through His working for me, i even got a job!
i don't ask anything of any of you. i would not, even if i had need, because 'a neighbor nearby is better than a brother far away' and i would rather go hungry than put anyone else out. i know the Lord will provide for me, and i wait on Him.
you can see the invoice ^ price is paid in full.
i only pressed the issue, because if one believes he is obligated by commandment to pay monies to those that do God's work, who am i to deny him opportunity to obey?
and also that hypocrisy should be exposed: if you would teach that it is the right of anyone who ministers for the sake of Christ's name to demand payment, what is it when such a one in fact demands payment, and you refuse? see how quickly what he called 'the commands of God' became insinuated accusations against me and instead of a thing to be obeyed, it was a thing to be judged by his own 'preference' ? even when all i demanded was exactly zero.
but maybe john, you will have use of this invoice when it comes time for you to pay your heavenly taxes, to show all your works to some ethereal auditor? i don't think so, i fully believe blood has covered your needs, but i don't want to be the cause of an unexplained gap in the accounting. so there you have it.
this is to show God's mercy for us: that while He has every right to demand 100% of all that anyone has, even to Israel under the covenant of law He only gave a lesser tithe, and to us under grace His apostles gave no commandment but that giving should not be by compulsion, but out of the purpose of the heart in faithful reply to His goodness, and that what we have affirmed we will do, we are faithful to carry out and do.
He desires mercy, not sacrifice. a gift given with thankfulness and joy, not grudging.
But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient,
for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane ..
(1 Timothy 1:8-9)
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J
jkalyna
Guest
*If anyone threatens another that this or that will happen if they don't do what someone says, that's not sending a peace message neither a love message. It is gone away with in the Old Testament. Take a look of what is happening with using that scripture of malachi, who very little is known about, but that there were certain laws, and age appropriation to collect these things, the crop of the land, and the Priests did not do as they should, and that is addressed to them that they have robbed God. God does not inflict fear upon us. Jesus mission was different. He fed the hungry, and said, sell all you have and give it to the poor. The bottom line is this; corruption in the church, gold cars, clothes clubs, world vacations. Each one of us, are instructed by the one living witihin us, Jesus, the HOly Spirit. You want to give, give cheerfully, don't neglect your wife, your life, or family, don't get your gas, or electric shut off, and don't look at the food in the supermarkets, wishing you had it, God provided it what you did with that money is your bad choices, or good. Jesus said, to doubting Thomas, blessed are they who have believed and not seen, because Thomas doubted he *resurrected, so if Jesus says were blessed, then who is man that he would lie to you, The fear of man is a snare the word says that. WEre blessed, all the way, every day, bible verse; God is not a man that he would lie. *WEre blessed, because Jesus said so. I will give as I am lead to give, because Jesus is my shepard, and he leadeth me, Psalm 23.*Absolutely agree with your statement! We're under the Grace and not the Law. Here is what Paul said in his letter :
“You are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts…. He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life” (2 Cor. 3:3-6).
Peter even scolded people who wanted the gentiles to obey the laws of Moses:
“Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are” (Acts 15:10,11)
And an excerpt from Galatians :
"For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." (Gal. 5:14)
I think this says it all. Whatever we do as Christians, we have to do out of love and not out of obligation. The Law was an obligation to the Jews, a commandment. In other words, - they had to obey it whether their hearts were in it or not. We're not obligated. Everything has to come from our hearts and out of love. So, if someone wants to give 10%, - very good, and if anyone wants to give 50%, - that's his choice too, because whatever you give - you do it from your heart and out of love!
Praise the Lord for His Sacrifice, for us to be free of any bondage!
P
PWE
Guest
Are Christians obligated to tithe?
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver." (2 Corinthians 9:7)
… as he has purposed in his heart …
Tithing: God decides for the Christian. There is nothing to purpose in the heart. The amount is set at 10%.
Freewill: God lets the Christian choose. The giver is allowed to determine percentage.
…not grudgingly…
Tithing: Even if a Christian does not want to give 10%, the money must be given even grudgingly.
Freewill: If you feel begrudged to give your money, God does not want it.
…or under compulsion…
Tithing: The Christian is under compulsion to give. He has no options but to give the 10%. That is what God requires.
Freewill: If the Christian does not want to give anything, they are not forced to give, even with means available.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. (Galatians 5:4)
Thought I might add this...
Nowhere in scripture will you see those with access to the holiest of all tithing to each other.
Nowhere in scripture will you see the high priesthood being an orginization not paying taxes...but we do see Jesus paying tribute.
Matthew 17:24-27King James Version (KJV)
24*And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25*He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26*Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
27*Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Not judging...but the high priesthood has private resources willfully distributed equally among the united group so that children and others can be blessed with the excess...remember...Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
How many think heaven is not an example of equality also?
Luke 12:47-49King James Version (KJV)
47*And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48*But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49*I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
Nowhere in scripture will you see those with access to the holiest of all tithing to each other.
Nowhere in scripture will you see the high priesthood being an orginization not paying taxes...but we do see Jesus paying tribute.
Matthew 17:24-27King James Version (KJV)
24*And when they were come to Capernaum, they that received tribute money came to Peter, and said, Doth not your master pay tribute?
25*He saith, Yes. And when he was come into the house, Jesus prevented him, saying, What thinkest thou, Simon? of whom do the kings of the earth take custom or tribute? of their own children, or of strangers?
26*Peter saith unto him, Of strangers. Jesus saith unto him, Then are the children free.
27*Notwithstanding, lest we should offend them, go thou to the sea, and cast an hook, and take up the fish that first cometh up; and when thou hast opened his mouth, thou shalt find a piece of money: that take, and give unto them for me and thee.
Not judging...but the high priesthood has private resources willfully distributed equally among the united group so that children and others can be blessed with the excess...remember...Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
How many think heaven is not an example of equality also?
Luke 12:47-49King James Version (KJV)
47*And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48*But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49*I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?
E
ELECT
Guest
[h=1]John 8:39King James Version (KJV)[/h]39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
Did Abraham paid tithes ?
T
Tintin
Guest
To Melchizedek, yes, (acknowledging his position as high priest) but one time only and from his spoils of WAR.