A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

[ChristInUs]

New here, but I will say that the first person to preach the gospel was Mary and He said go tell Peter.

 

[kaylagrl]

I think you are not well read up on what biblical ordination is, both testaments. Read up on it and tell me if any woman ever was ordained in biblical times. It just isn't there. Needless to say, God used and still uses women, the scriptural examples of such, however, should not lead anyone to the erroneous conclusion that the ordination of female clergy is OK. It is ignorant and presumptuous to surpass what God has revealed on the matter. Did you ever do a study on when the ordination of women even began to take place? It didn't exist anywhere in christianity until quiet recently. Ever wondered why?

I have several women who are ordained in my family. My great grandmother was ordained and brought the Pentecostal faith to her area.There were no Christian men to serve in her small town so she did.Both men and women came to faith in Christ because of her willingness to preach the gospel.If you believe that is wrong I'd have to say that is quite ridiculous.Women like Joyce Meyers preach and see people come to faith all the time.Is she sinning? Ridiculous! Catherine Booth,among others,brought the gospel to those in need.How arrogant to say they were instead sinning.{not that you have said that}


If you care to read....http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/98759.pdf Female Preaching inEarly Nineteenth-CenturyAmerica

 

[JackH]

What? Look its clear these women where "ordained" by God....put in "order" by God.... to reject that is to reject the truth no matter what system you believe you are uses. The point stills stands in this debate that even in the law God "ordained" women to places of power...its evident.

You are clearly right and tribesman is clearly wrong.

It seems to me that being called by God is the most important factor in ordination. In today's world, anybody can go to certain websites and get ordained in a few minutes. You get a swell certificate.

With respect to Deborah being called by God and ordained (appointed):

Exodus 7:1 "Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." Jeremiah 5:1: "I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Judges 4:4: "And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time." The Hebrew word for prophetess in that verse is the feminine version of the masculine Hebrew word in those other two verses. One of the biblical definitions of prophecy is inspired teaching. Judges 5:13: "The LORD made me (Deborah) have dominion over the mighty."

So Deborah was ordained (appointed) by God to be a judge of Israel and prophetess for 40 years. One would think that she did plenty of inspired teaching and preaching and pastoring in rendering decisions during that time. Israel was her church.

 

[tribesman]

I have several women who are ordained in my family. My great grandmother was ordained and brought the Pentecostal faith to her area.There were no Christian men to serve in her small town so she did.Both men and women came to faith in Christ because of her willingness to preach the gospel.If you believe that is wrong I'd have to say that is quite ridiculous.Women like Joyce Meyers preach and see people come to faith all the time.Is she sinning? Ridiculous! Catherine Booth,among others,brought the gospel to those in need.How arrogant to say they were instead sinning.{not that you have said that}


If you care to read....http://www.baylor.edu/content/services/document.php/98759.pdf Female Preaching inEarly Nineteenth-CenturyAmerica

I am well aware that ordination of women is quiet common these days in some circles. It is that way now, since the 1950s, not before that (except among sects like the Shakers and "Christian Science"). You get emotional and call it ridiculous to want to adhere to the biblical principle on ordination into offices? You dismiss christian church history up until 60 years ago? OK, your choice. Don't expect it be easy to have a rational and mutual giving discussion about the matter if so. However, I will check the link provided. As for Joyce Meyer, I am certainly not a supporter of what she teaches. But that is another topic. (And, yes, I would not support the same teachings if a man advocated them either). Other than this I will say that I personally am not of the position that women should be dead silent about their faith, not witnessing or teaching the unlearned at all. That's not what I am saying, but I do oppose the ordination of women into any office, based on the scriptural testimony, both testaments.

 

[ChristInUs]

The first preacher in Europe was Lydia

 

[JackH]

I am well aware that ordination of women is quiet common these days in some circles.

It is obvious that you are quite obsessed with women being quiet.

 

[tribesman]

You are clearly right and tribesman is clearly wrong.

It seems to me that being called by God is the most important factor in ordination. In today's world, anybody can go to certain websites and get ordained in a few minutes. You get a swell certificate.

With respect to Deborah being called by God and ordained (appointed):

Exodus 7:1 "Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." Jeremiah 5:1: "I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Judges 4:4: "And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time." The Hebrew word for prophetess in that verse is the feminine version of the masculine Hebrew word in those other two verses. One of the biblical definitions of prophecy is inspired teaching. Judges 5:13: "The LORD made me (Deborah) have dominion over the mighty."

So Deborah was ordained (appointed) by God to be a judge of Israel and prophetess for 40 years. One would think that she did plenty of inspired teaching and preaching and pastoring in rendering decisions during that time. Israel was her church.

You may have your opinion. But you are not willing to submit to the normative principle of the Scriptures regarding ordination. And you will find no scripture that says that Deborah was ordained to any office in the same sense as Elisha or Jeremiah. It is not there, as much as you may want to read it into the text. You want to find justification for a practice, by taking isolated examples in scripture while rejecting the normative principles. It is a very weak exegesis and a far cry from correctly wanting to understand God's will in relation to all that concerns the roles of men and women.

 

[tribesman]

It is obvious that you are quite obsessed with women being quiet.

Aha, your into pie throwing. Bye.

 

[keepitsimple]

Deborah, Huldah, Priscilla...none of these were ordained. Paul would not contradict either prior revelation or himself (1Tim.2:9-12). And, remember, the custom applied to the apostles and all churches of God. Not only some churches - all.

Reading this caused me to pause and think. I had not read this argument before. In checking the Greek terms mentioned by Dr. Zodhiates, I found that there was some validity to his points. Indeed, in Ephesians 5:22, where we find the admonition “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord,” the Greek words translated as “wives” and “husbands” are the same as the words normally translated as “women” and “husbands” in 1 Corinthians 14:34,35. So the question naturally follows as to why we have the same Greek word translated one way (“wives” in Ephesians 5:22), but translated a different way (generically “women”) in 1 Corinthians 14:34. This curious situation led me to look more deeply into the passages people use to prohibit women from preaching and teaching.



The Greek of 1 Timothy 2:11,12 and Dr. Zodhiates
After looking into the Greek of 1 Corinthians 14:34 and finding that it may have been mistranslated, I then decided to look into the Greek of 1 Timothy 2:11,12. Again, Dr. Zodhiates made this interesting point:
​

Observe 1 Tim. 2:11. It does not say women but a woman, and better still, a wife. The word in Greek is gune (1135), which indicates either a woman generically speaking or a wife, depending on the context. In this instance, since it stands in apposition to the word andros (the genitive singular of aner here meaning only “husband” and not “man” generically, 435), it must be translated as “a wife.” It is because of the mistranslations of these passages that the Christian world has had so much difficulty in understanding the proper position of a woman in the Christian Church…Verse 12 is again poorly translated in the K.J.V. It should not be “But I suffer not a woman to teach,” but “I suffer not a wife….”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two very interesting and substantive points were made in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia regarding our primary passage, 1 Timothy 2:11-12:

Favoring this suggestion, it may be noted that elsewhere in Paul’s writings aner occurs fifty times and gyne occurs fifty-four times in close proximity within eleven distinct contexts, and in each case these terms bear the meanings “husband” and “wife” rather than “man” and “woman”…Indeed it may be argued that, if Paul had intended to speak about man in relation to woman in 1 Tim. 2, rather than about husband in relation to wife, he would have used anthropos, “man,” rather than aner, in contrast to gyne, as he did in 1 Cor. 7:1. Alternatively, Paul could have used the very terms that most stress gender, arsen, “man,” in contrast to thelys, “woman,” as he did in Rom. 1:26f.[SUP]32[/SUP]

​

This would seem to be one of the most powerful and significant arguments against the idea that Paul in 1 Timothy 2 had men and women in general in mind. Apparently, Paul could have specified “male” and “female” in the most general terms as he had done before in Romans 1:26. The fact that he chose to use words that are mainly translated as “husband” and “wife” when in close contextual range of each other makes a more compelling case for the argument that both 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2 may have a more limited application than many would like to admit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the exegesis of 1 Corinthians 14:34,35, we find that L.E. Maxwell and Ruth C. Dearing in Women in Ministry make some interesting observations.t Two of the most important ones concern the disciplinary nature of the prohibition and the conditional nature of the “keep silent” commands in contex. First, they observe that this passage does not prohibit women from teaching or preaching, but instead enjoins order in a form of discipline by the apostle:

Why such an exhortation? Because the women were disturbing the church service by asking questions of their husbands during the preaching…Hence their questions produced an undertone of noise which was confusing to an audience. No wonder Paul corrected them. So we see that the Apostle is not dealing with the subject of women preaching, but with discipline. He is simply correcting disorder.


​

This analysis seems to hold contextual weight, especially since Paul does tell others (some of whom were male) to “keep silent” so that order is preserved (vv. 28, 30-33), which brings us to their second important observation about the conditional nature of the “keep silent” commands:

The injunction to “silence” occurs three times in 1 Corinthians 14—twice to men and once to women. In each case the silence commanded is manifestly conditional rather than absolute and for all time. To man Paul says, “let him keep silence in the church” (v. 28), referring to a man speaking in tongues when there is no interpreter…Paul is not meaning that these men remain forever silent, but that they simply refrain from any speaking that causes confusion.34



​

Along with these important points on 1 Corinthian 14:34,35, Maxwell and Dearing seem to agree with previous sources that argue for a more limited husband/wife application to the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:11,12, as they quote George Williams:

A married woman (v. 12) was not to teach or to claim authority over her husband but to be in subordination. Many misunderstand this command; they divorce it from its context, which is the family, and they carry it into the prayer-meeting [dealt with in vv. 1-10], and argue that a woman is forbidden to preach or pray—she is not to teach men—not even her dying husband how to escape from the wrath to come! This is a popular error. What God says here is that a wife is not to govern her husband.

​

 

[JackH]

And you will find no scripture that says that Deborah was ordained to any office in the same sense as Elisha or Jeremiah. It is not there, as much as you may want to read it into the text.

I didn't read anything into the text.

I gave you the text.

What part of those verses did you not understand?

 

[JackH]

Aha, your into pie throwing. Bye.

The only thing I know about pie is that there is a whole lot of baloney coming out of your pie hole.

I was merely pointing out that you typed "quiet" instead of "quite" and I attribute that to your chauvinistic obsession with women being quiet.

Just curious, what is your view on women being the leader of a country, as in president or prime minister?

 

[tribesman]

I didn't read anything into the text.

I gave you the text.

What part of those verses did you not understand?

No text you gave that says that Deborah was ordained, and you cannot do so, cause there is no such text.

 

[tribesman]

The only thing I know about pie is that there is a whole lot of baloney coming out of your pie hole.

I was merely pointing out that you typed "quiet" instead of "quite" and I attribute that to your chauvinistic obsession with women being quiet.

Just curious, what is your view on women being the leader of a country, as in president or prime minister?

Meaningless to talk to a troll like you. Bye for good.

 

[Mitspa]

You are clearly right and tribesman is clearly wrong.

It seems to me that being called by God is the most important factor in ordination. In today's world, anybody can go to certain websites and get ordained in a few minutes. You get a swell certificate.

With respect to Deborah being called by God and ordained (appointed):

Exodus 7:1 "Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet." Jeremiah 5:1: "I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Judges 4:4: "And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time." The Hebrew word for prophetess in that verse is the feminine version of the masculine Hebrew word in those other two verses. One of the biblical definitions of prophecy is inspired teaching. Judges 5:13: "The LORD made me (Deborah) have dominion over the mighty."

So Deborah was ordained (appointed) by God to be a judge of Israel and prophetess for 40 years. One would think that she did plenty of inspired teaching and preaching and pastoring in rendering decisions during that time. Israel was her church.

This mindset that men ordain other men apart from the clear calling of God is just religious nonsense. What a spiritual leader does is see the calling a man has on another person and confirms it in the authority of the calling God has placed on that leader. Paul confirmed Timothy according to the prophecy God had given unto Timothy. Paul himself accepted no man could judge his calling and refused the nonsense of letters from man to confirm his ministry but his ministry was confirmed by the Power of God.

 

[MadParrotWoman]

Tribal men, dinosaurs...

 

[Mitspa]

No text you gave that says that Deborah was ordained, and you cannot do so, cause there is no such text.

Let's see? How about the time God called her a judge of Israel and a prophet? Is God eternal Word not good enough for you? Do you need a bunch of dead religious men to write you a letter of approval?

 

[tribesman]

Let's see? How about the time God called her a judge of Israel and a prophet? Is God eternal Word not good enough for you? Do you need a bunch of dead religious men to write you a letter of approval?

How do you think your emotional approach can make you calm enough to listen and/or learn anything other than what your own self and its feeelings have up for the moment? If you can't give even one scripture of women being ordained then shouldn't that make you think something? Yes, Deborah served in the offices, given the situation and God allowing same, however she was not ordained, as were the men. This is scriptural fact that one either accepts or rejects. You want to argue with scripture? Go ahead.

 

[tribesman]

Tribal men, dinosaurs...

Great argument for female pastors ....not .

 

[Mitspa]

Reading this caused me to pause and think. I had not read this argument before. In checking the Greek terms mentioned by Dr. Zodhiates, I found that there was some validity to his points. Indeed, in Ephesians 5:22, where we find the admonition “Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord,” the Greek words translated as “wives” and “husbands” are the same as the words normally translated as “women” and “husbands” in 1 Corinthians 14:34,35. So the question naturally follows as to why we have the same Greek word translated one way (“wives” in Ephesians 5:22), but translated a different way (generically “women”) in 1 Corinthians 14:34. This curious situation led me to look more deeply into the passages people use to prohibit women from preaching and teaching.



The Greek of 1 Timothy 2:11,12 and Dr. Zodhiates
After looking into the Greek of 1 Corinthians 14:34 and finding that it may have been mistranslated, I then decided to look into the Greek of 1 Timothy 2:11,12. Again, Dr. Zodhiates made this interesting point:
​

Observe 1 Tim. 2:11. It does not say women but a woman, and better still, a wife. The word in Greek is gune (1135), which indicates either a woman generically speaking or a wife, depending on the context. In this instance, since it stands in apposition to the word andros (the genitive singular of aner here meaning only “husband” and not “man” generically, 435), it must be translated as “a wife.” It is because of the mistranslations of these passages that the Christian world has had so much difficulty in understanding the proper position of a woman in the Christian Church…Verse 12 is again poorly translated in the K.J.V. It should not be “But I suffer not a woman to teach,” but “I suffer not a wife….”
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two very interesting and substantive points were made in The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia regarding our primary passage, 1 Timothy 2:11-12:

Favoring this suggestion, it may be noted that elsewhere in Paul’s writings aner occurs fifty times and gyne occurs fifty-four times in close proximity within eleven distinct contexts, and in each case these terms bear the meanings “husband” and “wife” rather than “man” and “woman”…Indeed it may be argued that, if Paul had intended to speak about man in relation to woman in 1 Tim. 2, rather than about husband in relation to wife, he would have used anthropos, “man,” rather than aner, in contrast to gyne, as he did in 1 Cor. 7:1. Alternatively, Paul could have used the very terms that most stress gender, arsen, “man,” in contrast to thelys, “woman,” as he did in Rom. 1:26f.[SUP]32[/SUP]

​

This would seem to be one of the most powerful and significant arguments against the idea that Paul in 1 Timothy 2 had men and women in general in mind. Apparently, Paul could have specified “male” and “female” in the most general terms as he had done before in Romans 1:26. The fact that he chose to use words that are mainly translated as “husband” and “wife” when in close contextual range of each other makes a more compelling case for the argument that both 1 Corinthians 14 and 1 Timothy 2 may have a more limited application than many would like to admit.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the exegesis of 1 Corinthians 14:34,35, we find that L.E. Maxwell and Ruth C. Dearing in Women in Ministry make some interesting observations.t Two of the most important ones concern the disciplinary nature of the prohibition and the conditional nature of the “keep silent” commands in contex. First, they observe that this passage does not prohibit women from teaching or preaching, but instead enjoins order in a form of discipline by the apostle:

Why such an exhortation? Because the women were disturbing the church service by asking questions of their husbands during the preaching…Hence their questions produced an undertone of noise which was confusing to an audience. No wonder Paul corrected them. So we see that the Apostle is not dealing with the subject of women preaching, but with discipline. He is simply correcting disorder.


​

This analysis seems to hold contextual weight, especially since Paul does tell others (some of whom were male) to “keep silent” so that order is preserved (vv. 28, 30-33), which brings us to their second important observation about the conditional nature of the “keep silent” commands:

The injunction to “silence” occurs three times in 1 Corinthians 14—twice to men and once to women. In each case the silence commanded is manifestly conditional rather than absolute and for all time. To man Paul says, “let him keep silence in the church” (v. 28), referring to a man speaking in tongues when there is no interpreter…Paul is not meaning that these men remain forever silent, but that they simply refrain from any speaking that causes confusion.34



​

Along with these important points on 1 Corinthian 14:34,35, Maxwell and Dearing seem to agree with previous sources that argue for a more limited husband/wife application to the meaning of 1 Timothy 2:11,12, as they quote George Williams:

A married woman (v. 12) was not to teach or to claim authority over her husband but to be in subordination. Many misunderstand this command; they divorce it from its context, which is the family, and they carry it into the prayer-meeting [dealt with in vv. 1-10], and argue that a woman is forbidden to preach or pray—she is not to teach men—not even her dying husband how to escape from the wrath to come! This is a popular error. What God says here is that a wife is not to govern her husband.

​

This is a good post and if folks had some ability to read and translate the Greek in context of all the scriptures they could see the KJV is a very poor translation at best on these sciptures that relate to woman and there place in the assembly. In fact I believe their is a deliberate attempt to make these scriptures appear more restrictive by some of these men ?

 

[royalscot]

Then whats the real reason

the same reason could be asked ,why did there draw straws or lots for Matthias to take the place of judus.
even though they prayed to god about the problem.
"26 And they cast lots for them, and the lot fell on Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.Acts 1

so the answer is with the leaders of churches, sects , etc.