Tired of the Big LIE
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
S
I was angry with my wife this weekend and did not treat her as well as I should have. I pouted because I was hurt. So you're telling me that if I died while I was having conflict with my wife that Jesus would have turned His back on me. Hoy cow dude........your God is a scary heartless shame driven ogre. Your picture of God is a shame based doctrine that hurts people. I'll bet the children that come out of your congregation are twisted up inside.........sad.
K
The writings of the early church fathers indicate that they did not all agree with the statement “once saved always saved.” Some of the early Christian writers appear to have believed that a person could lose his or her salvation by sinning and others believed that a person could lose his or her salvation if he or she no longer believed in Jesus. Here are a variety of quotes from some very significant early church fathers.
Justin Martyr - The first quote comes from Justin Martyr (A.D. 100-165).
But I believe that even those, who have been persuaded . . . to observe the legal dispensation along with their confession of God in Christ, shall probably be saved. And I hold, further, that such as have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back from some cause to the legal dispensation, and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death, shall by no means be saved. Further, I hold that those of the seed of Abraham who live according to the law, and do not believe in this Christ before death, shall likewise not be saved . . . – Justin Martyr, Dialogue Of Justin 47
At the end of the quote it is clear that Justin believes that anyone who denies Jesus is the Christ will not be saved; that is, he or she will go to hell. At the start of the passage, he is not sure that someone will be saved if he or she believes in Jesus but is disobedient. Justin believes that faith and obedience go together. He agrees with James 2:26 and 1 John 2:4 which say,
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead. (NASB) James 2:26
The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him . . . (NASB) 1 John 2:4
The Bible teaches that someone who claims to be a Christian but does not live like one is a liar. They are not real Christians. Likewise, someone who might live like a Christian but does not believe in Jesus is not saved.
Shepherd of Hermas - Some have claimed that the writer of the Pastor of Hermas or Shepherd of Hermas (A.D. 155-180) believed that a Christian could lose his or her salvation and quoted the following passage,
They only who fear the Lord and keep His commandments have life with God; but as to those who keep not His commandments, there is no life in them. Shepherd of Hermas, 2.7 (A.D. 155).
Another passage seems to say the same thing,
And he said, “If you do not guard yourself against [anger], you and your house lose all hope of salvation . . . Hermas. Pastor of Hermas. Book 1.4.1.
But just a few sentences away we read this,
“Hear now,” said he, “how wicked is the action of anger, and in what way it overthrows the servants of God by its action, and turns them from righteousness. But [anger] does not turn away those who are full of faith, nor does it act on them, for the power of the Lord is with them. Hermas. Shepherd of Hermas. Book 1-2, Commandment Fourth, Chap. 1.
This passage reveals that the author of the Shepherd of Hermas did not believe that a true Christian could lose his salvation.
Irenaeus – The Christian writer, Irenaeus (A.D. 120-200), appears to believe that Christians are not “once saved always saved” with the following quote,
Those who do not obey Him . . . have ceased to be His sons. – Irenaeus, Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 4.41.3.
But several sentences earlier he said this,
But with respect to obedience and doctrine we are not all the sons of God: those only are so who believe in Him and do His will. And those who do not believe, and do not obey His will, are sons and angels of the devil, because they do the works of the devil. Irenaeus, Irenaeus Against Heresies, Book 41, 2.
What is our conclusion? Irenaeus believed as Justin Martyr did. Faith and obedience go together. One must be connected to the other. Therefore, Irenaeus believed that a person who lives a life of disobedience is not a true Christian, even if he once claimed to be a Christian. He agrees with James 2:14-26.
Tertullian – Tertullian (A.D. 150-220) makes the following statement which echoes the same message of 1 John 2:19.
But what if a bishop, if a deacon, if a widow, if a virgin, if a doctor, if even a martyr, have fallen from the rule (of faith), will heresies on that account appear to possess the truth? Do we prove the faith by the persons, or the persons by the faith? No one is wise, no one is faithful, no one excels in dignity, but the Christian; and no one is a Christian but he who perseveres even to the end. Tertullian, The Prescription Against Heretics, Chap 3.
1 John 2:19 says this,
They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us. (NASB) 1 John 2:19
Throughout the New Testament the Holy Spirit has stated that a true Christian, one who believes in Jesus, will persevere or continue in the faith until the end. The following quote from Tertullian seems to imply that he believed a Christian could lose his or her salvation by disobedience. If so, we must remember that scripture contains the truth and not Tertullian.
But the world returned unto sin; in which point baptism would ill be compared to the deluge. And so it is destined to fire; just as the man too is, who after baptism renews his sins: so that this also ought to be accepted as a sign for our admonition. Tertullian, On Repentance, 2.9
Origen – The writer Origen (A.D. 185-254) said this,
If there is any other nature which is holy, it possesses this property of being made holy by the reception or inspiration of the Holy Spirit, not having it by nature, but as an accidental quality, for which reason it may be lost, in consequence of being accidental. So also a man may possess an accidental righteousness, from which it is possible for him to fall away. Origen, Origen De Principilis, Book , Chap 8.
Origen contrasts true righteousness, given by the Holy Spirit, to an “accidental” righteousness. Those who do have the righteousness of God, which is given by faith through Jesus Christ, are truly righteous.
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (NASB) Rom. 8:10
. . . the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe . . . (NASB) Rom. 3:22
Origen seems to agree with this statement. Another quote from Origen echoes Christ's teaching,
He who has not denied himself, but denied Christ, will experience the saying, “I also will deny him.” – Origen. Gospel of Matthew. Book 12. 24.
Jesus simply said that another who rejects Him will be rejected.
But whoever denies Me before men, I will also deny him before My Father who is in heaven. (NASB) Matt. 10:33
Point proven...unteachable because of a rejection of truth........
YOU will never know the truth until you take a step back and acknowledge the truth EVER!
It is appointed unto men once to die<-------THE WORD ALL is NOT THERE
We which are ALIVE AND REMAIN<-----ALIVE IS NOT DEAD
You would argue with a fence post that it was not a fence post........if it went against your view of a fence post!
K
Cyprian – The last quote comes from Cyprian,
Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. Cyprian, Treatises of Cyprian. Treaties 1.6.
He also echoes 1 John 2:19.
Conclusion:These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.
The earliest statement regarding “once saved always saved” comes from Augustine (A.D. 354-430).
It was left to Augustine to speak a clear word for perseverance in pre-Reformation times. Starting with predestination, he saw that election to eternal life inevitably involves final perseverance. Since salvation is always God’s gift, he entitled his work on perseverance On the Gift of Perseverance. He denied, however, that the believer can have any assurance of his final salvation. Carl F. Henry. Basic Christian Doctrines. Baker Book House, 1962.
It is important to note that the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” did not appear in the literature of the church until the Reformation period. A review of the existing literature from the early church fathers suggests that most of them believed faith and works must both exist for a person to be a true Christian. While no person is perfect, the pattern of life must be present. Only a few seem to believe that a person can lose his or her salvation by disobedience. But it is also possible that they are only observing the biblical truth stated in James 2:17and 1 John 2:19.
Whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress, is separated from the promises of the Church; nor can he who forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is a stranger; he is profane; he is an enemy. He can no longer have God for his Father, who has not the Church for his mother. Cyprian, Treatises of Cyprian. Treaties 1.6.
He also echoes 1 John 2:19.
Conclusion:These men wrote from about A.D. 100 – 250. We do not find any statements to the effect that once a Christian is saved, he or she is always saved. But we do find a consistent belief, except for a few instances, that faith and works go together. This is consistent with the teachings of the Bible.
The earliest statement regarding “once saved always saved” comes from Augustine (A.D. 354-430).
It was left to Augustine to speak a clear word for perseverance in pre-Reformation times. Starting with predestination, he saw that election to eternal life inevitably involves final perseverance. Since salvation is always God’s gift, he entitled his work on perseverance On the Gift of Perseverance. He denied, however, that the believer can have any assurance of his final salvation. Carl F. Henry. Basic Christian Doctrines. Baker Book House, 1962.
It is important to note that the doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” did not appear in the literature of the church until the Reformation period. A review of the existing literature from the early church fathers suggests that most of them believed faith and works must both exist for a person to be a true Christian. While no person is perfect, the pattern of life must be present. Only a few seem to believe that a person can lose his or her salvation by disobedience. But it is also possible that they are only observing the biblical truth stated in James 2:17and 1 John 2:19.
I agree for sure.......My bible teaches me that I am eternally saved, sealed, justified and sanctified by the offering of Christ once for all and it is all based upon the perfect, unfailing, eternal faith of Jesus.....! Going to be many who get cast out because they believe their right to enter is based upon all the wonderful works that they done in the name of Jesus.......~
when did they get the holy spirit. was jesus back in heaven. about 32ad.
when did a new covenant start.
did cornelius already believe there was a god before sending for peter.
how dose this answer acts 15. 48ad. to what law the gentile should get, did they say the full law of moses, or the 10 commands.
again was it the same law that jesus was talking about in the gospels. to a jewish people under the law given to moses.
For the record I was right. This IS another thread debating it. 
You, the OP, may have intended it as a delclarative thread, but when you pitch it underhand some people can't resist hitting it out of the park. In other words, the topic of this thread and the way you stated it were just an open invitation to debate the topic.
You, the OP, may have intended it as a delclarative thread, but when you pitch it underhand some people can't resist hitting it out of the park. In other words, the topic of this thread and the way you stated it were just an open invitation to debate the topic.
K
Point proven...unteachable because of a rejection of truth........
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
This is why you are unteachable....I gave you a direct scripture that does not use the word ALL, of the which you interject the word ALL....I gave you a second scripture which contradicts your use of ALL, of the which you reject and a third point which is easily proven by the bible and you reject it....Kenneth there is nothing more to say to you...you consistently reject truth that contradicts what you believe and teach while ADDING words that are not there to support you view.....
YOU will never know the truth until you take a step back and acknowledge the truth EVER!
It is appointed unto men once to die<-------THE WORD ALL is NOT THERE
We which are ALIVE AND REMAIN<-----ALIVE IS NOT DEAD
You would argue with a fence post that it was not a fence post........if it went against your view of a fence post!
YOU will never know the truth until you take a step back and acknowledge the truth EVER!
It is appointed unto men once to die<-------THE WORD ALL is NOT THERE
We which are ALIVE AND REMAIN<-----ALIVE IS NOT DEAD
You would argue with a fence post that it was not a fence post........if it went against your view of a fence post!
No, I debate with those who want to twist the word of God to an unbiblical falsehood.
The Lord does tell us to worry about our life in the flesh, that He will take care of our needs, and that we are to prepare for eternal life with Him. So any time He or Paul is talking about sins consequence of death they are not talking about physical death in the flesh.
Just like you claim Matthew 10:22 when He says endure to the end to be saved here is not talking about eternal life, which is faulty. This chapter in about the Lord sending them out to preach the gospel and what they would go through, and only if they do not fall away when facing those terrible things will they be saved into eternal life. If you want to stick to physical life in this scripture then you are initially saying the Lord failed them;
Peter- crucified upside down
Paul- beheaded
Matthew- slain by a halberd
John- exiled on Patmos
James- put to deat by the sword by Herod Agrippa ( Acts 12:2 )
Andrew- crucified by Roman Governor, Aegeas( Aegeates )
{ bound not nailed to cross to prolong suffering }
Bartholomew- beaten with rods and then beheaded
James, son of Alpheus- beaten, stoned, then clubbed to death
Thomas- thrust through with spears, tortured with red hot plates, and then burned alive.
Philip- tortured, stoned, crucified upside down
Simon- crucified and/or sawed in half
Judas Thaddeus- beaten to death in Mesopotamia
Judas- committed suicide for betraying Jesus
Matthias- (replaced Judas) stoned to death
First of all SEA I lost no argument....you lost the day you trusted into yourself and your abilities.....
You propagate your religion, which is exactly that a religion that has no roots in biblical Christianity
You will see....People like you who trust into their works will beg to enter and expect to enter based upon your works and Jesus will say to you and all like you...DEPART from me ye workers of INIQUITY....WHY? Because you trust yourself over the perfect eternal faith of JESUS.......Sad day in deed for you!
You propagate your religion, which is exactly that a religion that has no roots in biblical Christianity
You will see....People like you who trust into their works will beg to enter and expect to enter based upon your works and Jesus will say to you and all like you...DEPART from me ye workers of INIQUITY....WHY? Because you trust yourself over the perfect eternal faith of JESUS.......Sad day in deed for you!
Another MOOT argument and one to take the heat off of the fact off what you have already proven by your actions of adding words, denying words and following men...here back to the topic that you seem to reject....
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
Point proven...unteachable because of a rejection of truth........
Originally Posted by dcontroversal
This is why you are unteachable....I gave you a direct scripture that does not use the word ALL, of the which you interject the word ALL....I gave you a second scripture which contradicts your use of ALL, of the which you reject and a third point which is easily proven by the bible and you reject it....Kenneth there is nothing more to say to you...you consistently reject truth that contradicts what you believe and teach while ADDING words that are not there to support you view.....
YOU will never know the truth until you take a step back and acknowledge the truth EVER!
It is appointed unto men once to die<-------THE WORD ALL is NOT THERE
We which are ALIVE AND REMAIN<-----ALIVE IS NOT DEAD
You would argue with a fence post that it was not a fence post........if it went against your view of a fence post!
YOU will never know the truth until you take a step back and acknowledge the truth EVER!
It is appointed unto men once to die<-------THE WORD ALL is NOT THERE
We which are ALIVE AND REMAIN<-----ALIVE IS NOT DEAD
You would argue with a fence post that it was not a fence post........if it went against your view of a fence post!
For the record I was right. This IS another thread debating it.
You, the OP, may have intended it as a delclarative thread, but when you pitch it underhand some people can't resist hitting it out of the park. In other words, the topic of this thread and the way you stated it were just an open invitation to debate the topic.
You, the OP, may have intended it as a delclarative thread, but when you pitch it underhand some people can't resist hitting it out of the park. In other words, the topic of this thread and the way you stated it were just an open invitation to debate the topic.
K
The Lord did not give the whole entire 613 Mosaic laws in the gospel books.
He gave the moral law of God that is contained within the 10 commandments that is now written in our hearts as believers, as well as He gave the milk of the word as in the first steps that a believer must take to become born again. Faith from hearing, repentance of sins, baptism, continuance in confession in Him, and forgiveness of others. The only thing any other Apostle was charged with was Paul who was commissioned to give the meat of the word. Hince the multiple times he gave lists of what can not be part of a believers life, and the lists of what does have to be part of a believers life. Your context on how you have been taught that the timing matters is faulty, as the Lord gave the milk; first steps one must take to become born again.
Then Paul gave the meat; the way in which a true born again believer must walk, and can not walk....
