Tired of the Big LIE
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
example.
two countries political heads, fall out over a disagreement. the chain reaction , leads to war, to armys with guns killing each other.
two men in each, of the heads, country take a gun and shoot one person in the street, over a disagreement. yet the county head, takes them to court and gives them 20 years each in a prison in each of these countries.
can you see a flaw in this judgement.
two countries political heads, fall out over a disagreement. the chain reaction , leads to war, to armys with guns killing each other.
two men in each, of the heads, country take a gun and shoot one person in the street, over a disagreement. yet the county head, takes them to court and gives them 20 years each in a prison in each of these countries.
can you see a flaw in this judgement.
Jason, Jason, Jason 
. . . Ephesians 2:2 is ACTUALLY talking about the past. I was pointing out a figure of speech (literary device used to place emphasis). This figure of speech is a Hebrew idiom [heterosis or prophetic perfect] - it is when the past tense is used instead of the future tense when the speaker views the action as being as good as done. It is used in Ephesians 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus . . . Are we literally seated in the heavenly places NOW? No, but it is stated as if we were already to emphasize the absolute certainty that we will be.
Again, you are picking out a verse NOT about salvation but concerning our walk - there is a difference. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world . . . . Should one put away the old man, mortify the deeds of the flesh - YES - but does that bear on one's salvation or on one's walk?
. . . Ephesians 2:2 is ACTUALLY talking about the past. I was pointing out a figure of speech (literary device used to place emphasis). This figure of speech is a Hebrew idiom [heterosis or prophetic perfect] - it is when the past tense is used instead of the future tense when the speaker views the action as being as good as done. It is used in Ephesians 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus . . . Are we literally seated in the heavenly places NOW? No, but it is stated as if we were already to emphasize the absolute certainty that we will be.
Again, you are picking out a verse NOT about salvation but concerning our walk - there is a difference. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world . . . . Should one put away the old man, mortify the deeds of the flesh - YES - but does that bear on one's salvation or on one's walk?
Jason, Jason, Jason
. . . Ephesians 2:2 is ACTUALLY talking about the past. I was pointing out a figure of speech (literary device used to place emphasis). This figure of speech is a Hebrew idiom [heterosis or prophetic perfect] - it is when the past tense is used instead of the future tense when the speaker views the action as being as good as done. It is used in Ephesians 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus . . . Are we literally seated in the heavenly places NOW? No, but it is stated as if we were already to emphasize the absolute certainty that we will be.
Again, you are picking out a verse NOT about salvation but concerning our walk - there is a difference. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world . . . . Should one put away the old man, mortify the deeds of the flesh - YES - but does that bear on one's salvation or on one's walk?
. . . Ephesians 2:2 is ACTUALLY talking about the past. I was pointing out a figure of speech (literary device used to place emphasis). This figure of speech is a Hebrew idiom [heterosis or prophetic perfect] - it is when the past tense is used instead of the future tense when the speaker views the action as being as good as done. It is used in Ephesians 2:6 - And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus . . . Are we literally seated in the heavenly places NOW? No, but it is stated as if we were already to emphasize the absolute certainty that we will be.
Again, you are picking out a verse NOT about salvation but concerning our walk - there is a difference. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world . . . . Should one put away the old man, mortify the deeds of the flesh - YES - but does that bear on one's salvation or on one's walk?
Last edited:
J
Seriously?
Unsaved people don't have an "inner man"?
What are they then?
Just hollow shells?
Our inner man relates to our spirit and soul as contrasted to our outer man or our bodies.
Ephesians chapter 3
[14] For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[15] Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
[16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
[17] That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
[18] May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
[19] And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
It's OUR "inner man" which is strengthened by God's Spirit that Christ may dwell IN OUR HEARTS or IN OUR INNER MAN by faith.
II Corinthians chapter 4
[14] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
[15] For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
[16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
Would you have me/us to believe that "Christ in us" needs to be "renewed day by day"?
Seriously, just give it a rest.
According to this same Paul, here's what's being "renewed":
Romans chapter 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Again:
Ephesians chapter 4
[17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[20] But ye have not so learned Christ;
[21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
[23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Yet, again:
Colossians chapter 3
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Does "Christ in us" have to be "renewed in knowledge"?
It's nonsense.
Anyhow, Paul explained EXACTLY what he meant about "the inward man" when he said:
Romans chapter 7
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Paul spoke of "the inward man" in relation to HIS MIND.
You'd be wise to do the same.
Unsaved people don't have an "inner man"?
What are they then?
Just hollow shells?
Our inner man relates to our spirit and soul as contrasted to our outer man or our bodies.
Ephesians chapter 3
[14] For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
[15] Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
[16] That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
[17] That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
[18] May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
[19] And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
It's OUR "inner man" which is strengthened by God's Spirit that Christ may dwell IN OUR HEARTS or IN OUR INNER MAN by faith.
II Corinthians chapter 4
[14] Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.
[15] For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God.
[16] For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
Would you have me/us to believe that "Christ in us" needs to be "renewed day by day"?
Seriously, just give it a rest.
According to this same Paul, here's what's being "renewed":
Romans chapter 12
[1] I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
[2] And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Again:
Ephesians chapter 4
[17] This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
[18] Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
[19] Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[20] But ye have not so learned Christ;
[21] If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[22] That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
[23] And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[24] And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Yet, again:
Colossians chapter 3
[9] Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
[10] And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Does "Christ in us" have to be "renewed in knowledge"?
It's nonsense.
Anyhow, Paul explained EXACTLY what he meant about "the inward man" when he said:
Romans chapter 7
[22] For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
[23] But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Paul spoke of "the inward man" in relation to HIS MIND.
You'd be wise to do the same.
So you believe you can be out of fellowship with Christ but yet you still have the Holy Spirit and can sin while having the Spirit and it is okay to God? That would be like God dwelling in the devil while he did bad things. Such a thing would not be possible because God does not condone the evil actions of others. God is Holy and good. If you don't have fellowship with the Son there is no life is what 1 John 5:12 says. There is not another verse that nullifies 1 John 5:12. He that does not have the Son does not have life. Period. There is no need to add to that verse. 1 John 5:12 stands on it's own just fine.
Last edited:
Jesus says the Pharisees appear beautiful outwardly but WITHIN (i.e. the inward man) they are full of uncleanness and are like dead men's bones. For they appear appear righteous unto men, but inwardly they are full of hypocrisy and inquity (Which is okay to some OSAS proponents).
Matthew 23:27-28
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."
Matthew 23:27-28
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity."
So there it says your flesh walks in the law of sin. Then Paul progresses from playing the part of a wretched sinner in Romans 7:24 (KJV) [SUP]24 [/SUP] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? to a promise of deliverance from the inner war. We need all thew words of 25. Romans 7:25 (KJV) [SUP]25 [/SUP] I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
So now comes Jesus finding me ready to be delivered from my flesh serving sin, which is not how God wants to leave us.
Romans 8:1 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Suddenly he is delivered from the flesh serving the law of sin, now walking in the Spirit. The flesh is now dead to the law of sin.
Romans 8:2 (KJV) [SUP]2 [/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
All of the two chapters deals not with what the law did to us (the law is holy) and with being delivered from the effect of the knowledge of sin by the Mosaic law of sin and death, which makes sin come alive is us, into the law of life in Christ. Starting at 7:1 confirms the actual topic.
By saying you like being in the situation described in chapter 7, then you would have to be still under sin coming back from the grave. Chapter 8 is how the New Covenant changes us out of the Rom 7 quagmire. An example of the extent of the change is Romans 8:13-14 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [SUP]14 [/SUP] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The flesh no longer ruling or behaving on it's own cognizance by killing deeds of the flesh through the Spirit. That's necessary to live, not die spiritually. In other words, salvation is not based on something we do one day in our lives, but what we hold onto all our days. We changed masters, so we let our new master rule, which is heavy on ridding us of sin. Anyone with a body that pursues sin will not live eternally. Believing you can have a saved spiritman while the flesh is rebellious is not scriptural. We can't excuse the spirit because of misbehavior of soul and/or body. The body does nothing without the soul directing. A soul without a functioning spirit won't ever stumble upon righteousness, as without Christ our spirit is dead to God, can't "know" what it ought to know. Once the spirit of man is made alive by the presence of the Holy Spirit in us, it will then "know" spiritual things, then influence the soul (mind) to use the body to the glory of God.
If that person later falls into temptation, then pursues living according to the flesh once again, the incorruptible seed of the Holy Spirit will not remain. God departs from sin. So choose to remain born again by the way of the Bible.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) [SUP]23 [/SUP] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
"Born again" comes by the word of God, like faith comes by the Word of God. Continue on, Christians, feeding spirit, soul and body with much reading of the Word of God, doing the word you learn. That enables us to kill the deeds of the flesh, then produce fruit of the Spirit more and more.
Is that works unto salvation? No. That is what a regenerated believer does rather than do unrighteousness. It is our lifestyle that proves which master is really our master.
So now comes Jesus finding me ready to be delivered from my flesh serving sin, which is not how God wants to leave us.
Romans 8:1 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP] There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Suddenly he is delivered from the flesh serving the law of sin, now walking in the Spirit. The flesh is now dead to the law of sin.
Romans 8:2 (KJV) [SUP]2 [/SUP] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
All of the two chapters deals not with what the law did to us (the law is holy) and with being delivered from the effect of the knowledge of sin by the Mosaic law of sin and death, which makes sin come alive is us, into the law of life in Christ. Starting at 7:1 confirms the actual topic.
By saying you like being in the situation described in chapter 7, then you would have to be still under sin coming back from the grave. Chapter 8 is how the New Covenant changes us out of the Rom 7 quagmire. An example of the extent of the change is Romans 8:13-14 (KJV) [SUP]13 [/SUP] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [SUP]14 [/SUP] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The flesh no longer ruling or behaving on it's own cognizance by killing deeds of the flesh through the Spirit. That's necessary to live, not die spiritually. In other words, salvation is not based on something we do one day in our lives, but what we hold onto all our days. We changed masters, so we let our new master rule, which is heavy on ridding us of sin. Anyone with a body that pursues sin will not live eternally. Believing you can have a saved spiritman while the flesh is rebellious is not scriptural. We can't excuse the spirit because of misbehavior of soul and/or body. The body does nothing without the soul directing. A soul without a functioning spirit won't ever stumble upon righteousness, as without Christ our spirit is dead to God, can't "know" what it ought to know. Once the spirit of man is made alive by the presence of the Holy Spirit in us, it will then "know" spiritual things, then influence the soul (mind) to use the body to the glory of God.
If that person later falls into temptation, then pursues living according to the flesh once again, the incorruptible seed of the Holy Spirit will not remain. God departs from sin. So choose to remain born again by the way of the Bible.
1 Peter 1:23 (KJV) [SUP]23 [/SUP] Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
"Born again" comes by the word of God, like faith comes by the Word of God. Continue on, Christians, feeding spirit, soul and body with much reading of the Word of God, doing the word you learn. That enables us to kill the deeds of the flesh, then produce fruit of the Spirit more and more.
Is that works unto salvation? No. That is what a regenerated believer does rather than do unrighteousness. It is our lifestyle that proves which master is really our master.
There are certain OSAS proponents who believe that only the man of the flesh (outward man) sins. They claim that the man of the flesh (our bodies) will be destroyed but our inner man will go to Heaven. This is nowhere to be found in Scripture. In fact, 1 Corinthians 6:18-20 lets us know that every sin is done without the body but fornication (a specific particular sin) is done towards the body. Jesus says when a person looks upon a woman in lust they have committed adultery already in their heart. This is not talking about their physical heart but it is talking about the inward man. They are sinning inwardly. For Jesus said in Matthew 23:27-28 that the Pharisees appeared to be outwardly righteus but inwardly they were full of iniquity. Iniquity is sin.
I believe that when we finally let go and let God take over our lives, then the new man is formed in us. But this is only a shadow of the actual birth of the spiritual man which takes place when the body of Christ is completed.
I don't pay attention to what churches and religions say so I can't answer that part. I quit listening to preachers when they started telling me my bible was full of errors and I can't trust it.
I don't pay attention to what churches and religions say so I can't answer that part. I quit listening to preachers when they started telling me my bible was full of errors and I can't trust it.
Paul plays the part of a wretched sinner because he used to be one before he came to Christ. He is speaking from his experience as a Jew who kept the Law. He is speaking to Jewish Christians who have become ensnared to going back to the Law of Moses. Romans 7:1 essentially says, "I speak to them that know the Law."