Tired of the Big LIE
- Thread starter dcontroversal
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
K
If that is what you take from it then you would be saying Paul did not receive eternal life.
Because in chapter 7:14 he called himself carnally minded at that point, and then in 8:6 he shows that he could not stay that way and get the gift of eternal life....
Notice the transition form new convert to maturity in the faith;
Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
He shows if he did not move away from that carnal mindset he had in chapter 7 to walking in the Spirit in chapter 8. He would still be serving flesh (sin) and not serving the Lord, and would still be headed to spiritual death instead of eternal life..........
J
Do you feel better now?
Here's what "nonsense" means:
Nonsense - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
The bold-faced part is what I had in mind.
KJV1611 said and I quote:
Here's your chance, Utah...
Is what KJV1611 said "nonsense" or not?
If you choose to go with "or not", then prove your case.
This ought to be good...
Here's what "nonsense" means:
Nonsense - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
The bold-faced part is what I had in mind.
KJV1611 said and I quote:
Here's your chance, Utah...
Is what KJV1611 said "nonsense" or not?
If you choose to go with "or not", then prove your case.
This ought to be good...
The Law of Moses is no more. Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses on the cross. But that does not mean there is no law or commands for us believers whatsoever in the New Testament, though. The moral law still exists. You can't go out and murder, lust, steal, fornicate, get drunk, lie, hate, etc. Paul said the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.
E
lol, you must throw out the rest of romans to believe this, not to mention all of chapter 8.
Paul said HE is carnally minded (in self (the flesh) all we can do is satisfy self, there is no good in us)
But the SPIRIT is life. It is not in us that we can follow the spirit. we must be in God, for it is God who empowers us to live life.
A christian can be carnal one minute, and spiritual the next, it all depends on where his mind is.
That is what Paul meant in romans 7.
If I leave my work up to myself. I will fail, because I can not do good.
The spirit must work in me (and I must sacrifice myself to let him do that) to do good. because no good can come from me (self, that is my flesh)
when your saved, you do not lose the flesh, it is still there, It just loses its supreme power over you.
V
And as I had just explained to you, the meaning of the Greek limits that "walk" to the unbeliever. So no, it does not apply to the true Christian, and neither does your Romans 6 verse, which you -- as usual -- lifted out of context so as to strip it of its meaning, and attempt to twist it into teaching something it most assuredly does not. That's deliberately deceptive, making you somewhere between a heretic and a false teacher.
For everyone else reading, let's look at the whole passage, shall we?
What brother Ken always fails to see in these passage is context. He is so sold out to a false teaching that he desperately seeks out verses that appear to support his false views. But as usual, this one does not. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches one can lose their salvation.
Note in Romans 6:14 that Paul tells us that "sin shall not be master over" us. The Greek kurieuo, here translated "master," is transliterated kurieuo and means "to have dominion, or power, over." Notice that Paul no where here or elsewhere says that sin is without any influence at all, only that it has no power over the believer.
Very telling is that Paul asks in v. 15 if we shall "sin because we are not under law, but under grace?" In other words, we have the power to sin, and Paul's question implies heavily that we could choose, as did many of the Gnostics, to engage in debauchery and revelry for this very reason -- that they were under grace and believed they could do so with impunity. This is often an argument that the "lost salvation" crowd make: If we cannot lose our salvation, we have a license to sin.
Paul makes it clear in the following verses why this is invalid.
Of utmost importance here is the word "form" -- didace, transliterated didache -- which means a doctrine, specifically of a religious type. We become "obedient from the heart," to the doctrine "to which [we] were committed: The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul goes on to say that we have "been freed from sin," which is the Greek eleuqeroo and which means "set at liberty, free from sin's dominion." We are still in sin's presence, it is all around us, and we, being flesh, can still act upon the fleshly impulses.
But freed from the bondage of sin, in which we had no choice, we are now slaves to righteousness, and note particularly how Paul puts this.
When we engaged in the sins of impurity and lawlessness, what was the result? Paul says, "more lawlessness." But now we are to present our bodies as slaves to righteousness -- but not our own, for we have none of our own. How so? The word Paul uses that we translate "righteousness" is the Greek dikaiosune and it can only mean the righteousness of God. How do we have that righteousness? Through nothing of our own, but only through Christ's blood, by His grace to give us the faith to understand that is our only way to purity.
What does that righteousness, provided by Christ's death and resurrection, grant us? "Sanctification!" Acting on our freedom in Christ toward righteousness leads us to dikaiosune: sanctification, which is consecration, purification, of our hearts and our lives! When we sin as Christians, we are not laying up an account that will lead to loss of salvation. The teaching is ludicrous at best and heretical at best. Our sin blocks our sanctification, our growth in Christ, hindering our ability to relate to Him, serve Him, be joyful and full in Him.
It is for that reason we are to engage in righteous acts. Not to seize hold of something we must cling to or lose it, because we had nothing to do with its acquisition in the first place! No, no, no, friends -- and Ken, who insists this is not only possible, but a "must do." No, we are to engage in righteous acts because it fosters more righteous acts, just as our sin fostered more lawlessness.
That is the Gospel. Stop subverting it with man-made lies! Sin in the Christian is a serious matter, continuing sin without guilt, remorse, conviction -- that calls our salvation into question only in the sense that perhaps we were never saved. Persistent sin in the Christian is possible. If it wasn't, Paul wouldn't have written about it as he did. But it is not a threat of "lost salvation." It is a threat of being out of fellowship with Christ, not growing in His ways and knowledge, not serving, loving, and dying to Him. That is why sin is serious in the Christian, and must be addressed. And so Paul states clearly in wrapping up the thought.
For everyone else reading, let's look at the whole passage, shall we?
Romans 6, NASB
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
What brother Ken always fails to see in these passage is context. He is so sold out to a false teaching that he desperately seeks out verses that appear to support his false views. But as usual, this one does not. There is nothing in the Bible that teaches one can lose their salvation.
Note in Romans 6:14 that Paul tells us that "sin shall not be master over" us. The Greek kurieuo, here translated "master," is transliterated kurieuo and means "to have dominion, or power, over." Notice that Paul no where here or elsewhere says that sin is without any influence at all, only that it has no power over the believer.
Very telling is that Paul asks in v. 15 if we shall "sin because we are not under law, but under grace?" In other words, we have the power to sin, and Paul's question implies heavily that we could choose, as did many of the Gnostics, to engage in debauchery and revelry for this very reason -- that they were under grace and believed they could do so with impunity. This is often an argument that the "lost salvation" crowd make: If we cannot lose our salvation, we have a license to sin.
Paul makes it clear in the following verses why this is invalid.
Romans 6
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Of utmost importance here is the word "form" -- didace, transliterated didache -- which means a doctrine, specifically of a religious type. We become "obedient from the heart," to the doctrine "to which [we] were committed: The Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul goes on to say that we have "been freed from sin," which is the Greek eleuqeroo and which means "set at liberty, free from sin's dominion." We are still in sin's presence, it is all around us, and we, being flesh, can still act upon the fleshly impulses.
But freed from the bondage of sin, in which we had no choice, we are now slaves to righteousness, and note particularly how Paul puts this.
Romans 6
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
When we engaged in the sins of impurity and lawlessness, what was the result? Paul says, "more lawlessness." But now we are to present our bodies as slaves to righteousness -- but not our own, for we have none of our own. How so? The word Paul uses that we translate "righteousness" is the Greek dikaiosune and it can only mean the righteousness of God. How do we have that righteousness? Through nothing of our own, but only through Christ's blood, by His grace to give us the faith to understand that is our only way to purity.
What does that righteousness, provided by Christ's death and resurrection, grant us? "Sanctification!" Acting on our freedom in Christ toward righteousness leads us to dikaiosune: sanctification, which is consecration, purification, of our hearts and our lives! When we sin as Christians, we are not laying up an account that will lead to loss of salvation. The teaching is ludicrous at best and heretical at best. Our sin blocks our sanctification, our growth in Christ, hindering our ability to relate to Him, serve Him, be joyful and full in Him.
It is for that reason we are to engage in righteous acts. Not to seize hold of something we must cling to or lose it, because we had nothing to do with its acquisition in the first place! No, no, no, friends -- and Ken, who insists this is not only possible, but a "must do." No, we are to engage in righteous acts because it fosters more righteous acts, just as our sin fostered more lawlessness.
That is the Gospel. Stop subverting it with man-made lies! Sin in the Christian is a serious matter, continuing sin without guilt, remorse, conviction -- that calls our salvation into question only in the sense that perhaps we were never saved. Persistent sin in the Christian is possible. If it wasn't, Paul wouldn't have written about it as he did. But it is not a threat of "lost salvation." It is a threat of being out of fellowship with Christ, not growing in His ways and knowledge, not serving, loving, and dying to Him. That is why sin is serious in the Christian, and must be addressed. And so Paul states clearly in wrapping up the thought.
Romans 6
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul compares our past, sinful life to our new life in Christ now. The outcome of our old life -- our old life! -- before knowing CAhrist, was death. But we are freed from that cost now, as assuredly we are free from sin.20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Last edited:
Listen, why don't you just admit what every freakin body on this thread already knows... you are a sinner, you are not perfect, you are not better than the rest of us, you sin just as much as we do. The only difference between us and you and your kind is that we admit it and ya'll lie and say you don't do it.
You are not free in Christ, you are still under the bondage of the law. I am not in bondage, ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL FOR ME but not all are expedient. If I get out of line my heavenly Father will tear my rear end up just like I do with my children.... and I still love them and would never condemn them to hell because they disobeyed me.
You are not free in Christ, you are still under the bondage of the law. I am not in bondage, ALL THINGS ARE LAWFUL FOR ME but not all are expedient. If I get out of line my heavenly Father will tear my rear end up just like I do with my children.... and I still love them and would never condemn them to hell because they disobeyed me.
K
What I put forth in post #470 is a number of scriptures with no commentary of my own that show that salvation/eternal life is not a physical possession of ours right now. That it goes hand and hand with pisteuo (believe) that means a continuation of leading to something, and in our case it is salvation. Paired together with echo that means a mental possession or assurance of receiving. We can see that now the scriptures do not contradict each others, when the Lord and the epistles of the Apostles say you have to endure and do the will of God first in your life and stay/continue/do not waver in the faith to receive salvation. Take it for what it is worth, but the Holy Spirit is working through me to open the eyes of this simple fact that has been smeared within false teachings.
E
lol. not true, not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away until the end.
If your not born again, saved, made a child of God, the law still condemns you. What was taken away was the condemnation of the law.
Your tryingn to put people back under the condemnation of the law.
Your right, non of those will make it, why? the law condemns them.
The moral law is what condemns you.
Have you fulfilled that?
you must have, it is what you claim.
What does the "incorruptible seed" have to do with the Parable of the Sower? We are born again of the Spirit, "incorruptible seed" by/through the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Rom. 10:17. incorruptible - uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable
Well, I still don't see where I added to 1 John 5:12. - It's pretty easy to figure out - if one does not have the Son - they haven't been born again - as if I didn't know that! And I was explaining to you how one has the Son - A person that is born again has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them through the "incorruptible seed" that God placed within that person by BIRTH. If a person has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them then they HAVE THE SON and they have ETERNAL life. - which you want to continue to overlook.
You don't understand the concept of birth, plain and simple.
Well, I still don't see where I added to 1 John 5:12. - It's pretty easy to figure out - if one does not have the Son - they haven't been born again - as if I didn't know that! And I was explaining to you how one has the Son - A person that is born again has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them through the "incorruptible seed" that God placed within that person by BIRTH. If a person has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them then they HAVE THE SON and they have ETERNAL life. - which you want to continue to overlook.
You don't understand the concept of birth, plain and simple.
Okay, I apologize. I looked a little more closely again at what I wrote and it made it appear like I was speaking to you specifically. While I do strive to talk more in general terms. Sometimes I forget to change the personal wording so as not to attack a person on a one on one basis. However, you have to realize that your question is not innocent. It was an attack against me to begin with. What was the purpose of that attack? What was the point you are trying to make? Are you trying to justify a particular behavior in believers? It's a question. Not an accusation. Do you feel it is the norm for all believers to habitually sin? Again, it is a question and not an accusation. I can tell you that I do not habitually sin. How long ago I sinned (Whether it be 5 years ago or 5 minutes ago) should have no attachment to whether or not I live a lifestyle of sin and commit sin as a way of life. Are you saying a true believer can live a lifestyle of sin and still be saved? Again, not an accusation. It is just a question.
First, well, if... and I say... if you sin habitually as a way of life several times a day then.... no, I am not like the rest of you. This doesn't mean I am better than you. I am nothing. Christ is everything. I have merely chosen to accept his free gift whereby it has changed my life. Does it make me perfect 100% of my life? No. But Christ does call us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. So your thinking that nobody is perfect is just not true. Christ would not call us to be perfect if he didn't think some of us did not have the chance to be perfect. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord.
Second, you believe I don't admit my sins before God. I believe confession of one's sins is necessary for salvation, so you would be dead wrong, my friend. Do you believe confessing cleanses you of all unrighteousness like 1 John 1:9 says? If you don't think so, then what do you think 1 John 1:9 says?
Third, the phrase "all things are lawful for me" is in reference to court justice in one passage and in eating certain foods in another. It is not talking about the moral law. You can't shoot a person in the head and think you are saved. You can't sleep with a ton of women and think you are saved while doing so. You can't get drunk every night and think you are saved. It doesn't work like that.
Four, you did not address 1 John 1:6-7. Please explain to me what you think it says.
Second, you believe I don't admit my sins before God. I believe confession of one's sins is necessary for salvation, so you would be dead wrong, my friend. Do you believe confessing cleanses you of all unrighteousness like 1 John 1:9 says? If you don't think so, then what do you think 1 John 1:9 says?
Third, the phrase "all things are lawful for me" is in reference to court justice in one passage and in eating certain foods in another. It is not talking about the moral law. You can't shoot a person in the head and think you are saved. You can't sleep with a ton of women and think you are saved while doing so. You can't get drunk every night and think you are saved. It doesn't work like that.
Four, you did not address 1 John 1:6-7. Please explain to me what you think it says.
K
Then by what you are initially saying is that a person doesn't even have to believe in the Lord after hearing the word to receive eternal life, by saying we did nothing to receive it. You would be placing all people as saved then, which is not correct or true. And the bible states all over it, and more than once that you have to walk in the Spirit and not give into the flesh of sins and still be saved.
It is a false teaching when people tell another that they can walk in darkness, which is separation from God do to willful sins and still be saved. A person who chooses to continue to serve their sinful ways, are not a born again believer. Else they would mirror their walk on how the Lord walked.
The bible makes it very clear the standards of a born again believer, and it states if those standards are not part of your life you are still in darkness and not walking in the light.
1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, where unto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.
So again - you do not believe that a person is actually born again of Spirit?
And that birth is permanent?
And you believe that when one is born again - that "seed" implanted in them can be corrupted?
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life - NOT a promise we can depend on but an "only if" promise?
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved - only if, if, if, if . . . . .
Take it for what it is worth - For by grace you are saved through faith and not of works, lest any man boast. We are talking about salvation . . . . .
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.
And that birth is permanent?
And you believe that when one is born again - that "seed" implanted in them can be corrupted?
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life - NOT a promise we can depend on but an "only if" promise?
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved - only if, if, if, if . . . . .
Take it for what it is worth - For by grace you are saved through faith and not of works, lest any man boast. We are talking about salvation . . . . .
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.