Tired of the Big LIE

[Viligant_Warrior]

The thing is though is like I said, go read post #470 as I gave a few scriptures with no commentary of my own. And each one shows that salvation/eternal life is not a current physical possession of ours right now.

Obviously Paul says this is utterly wrong.

Ephesians 1 NASB
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. ​

What does God's giving the Holy Spirit "as a pledge of our inheritance" mean, Ken? Do you fail to grasp this is a legal real estate term? It is "earnest money," a down payment guaranteeing our redemption "of God's own possession"! -- that would be you, Ken, assuming you actually have faith to believe in Christ, which I think is a very safe assumption.

Which goes hand and hand with pisteuo (continuance of belief) ...

Outright misrepresentation. That is not the meaning of pisteuo. You have deliberately -- and why am I not surprised? -- given a false definition of the word. Being in the aorist tense in relationship to faith in Christ, it means a one time event with continuing consequences! In other words, belief in Christ for salvation one time to sanctification and eternal life. How dare you deliberately mishandle God's word?

... and echo (mental possession, assurance of). Which also shines light on the Lords sayings when He said we must endure and do God's will in our life first before getting eternal life....

More deliberate misrepresentation. Jesus never used the word.

 

[Utah]

Okay, I apologize. I looked a little more closely again at what I wrote and it made it appear like I was speaking to you specifically. While I do strive to talk more in general terms. Sometimes I forget to change the personal wording so as not to attack a person on a one on one basis. However, you have to realize that your question is not innocent. It was an attack against me to begin with. What was the purpose of that attack? What was the point you are trying to make? Are you trying to justify a particular behavior in believers? It's a question. Not an accusation. Do you feel it is the norm for all believers to habitually sin? Again, it is a question and not an accusation. I can tell you that I do not habitually sin. How long ago I sinned (Whether it be 5 years ago or 5 minutes ago) should have no attachment to whether or not I live a lifestyle of sin and commit sin as a way of life. Are you saying a true believer can live a lifestyle of sin and still be saved? Again, not an accusation. It is just a question.

Jason, I love you, Brother, and only want what's best for you. Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Yes, you do, and you are saved because of your faith and I rejoice for you. I too believe in Jesus and am saved. I embrace the grace, you do not. Let's agree to disagree and rejoice for one another. If you do not rejoice for me because you feel I am not saved, then all I can say is that my arms to friendship are open to you regardless.

 

[kennethcadwell]

So again - you do not believe that a person is actually born again of Spirit?
And that birth is permanent?
And you believe that when one is born again - that "seed" implanted in them can be corrupted?
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life - NOT a promise we can depend on but an "only if" promise?
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved - only if, if, if, if . . . . .

Take it for what it is worth - For by grace you are saved through faith and not of works, lest any man boast. We are talking about salvation . . . . .

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever.

I will just once again answer you with scripture, and you can take these for what they say or keep to the false teaching that salvation/eternal life is an immediate physical possession; As Paul and the other Apostles continuously warned believers of not continuing in the faith;


1 Peter 1:9


Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




James 1:12


Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him.




Matthew 24:10-13


And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




Matthew 10:22


And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.




2 Peter 2:20-22


For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”




Hebrews 12:1-3


Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.




Hebrews 10:36


For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God you may receive what is promised.




Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.




Hebrews 3:12-14


Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.




2 Timothy 4:2-8


Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths. As for you, always be sober-minded, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure has come.




1 Timothy 4:16


Keep a close watch on yourself and on the teaching. Persist in this, for by so doing you will save both yourself and your hearers.




1 Corinthians 9:24-25


Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.




Romans 11:19-22


Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.




Mark 13:9-13


“But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.






Colossians 1:22-23


In the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister.

 

[Bookends]

So what keeps us in Christ?

Our Faith, not works, however our works demonstrates we have faith.

 

[Utah]

Do you feel better now?

Here's what "nonsense" means:

Nonsense - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


The bold-faced part is what I had in mind.

KJV1611 said and I quote:


Here's your chance, Utah...

Is what KJV1611 said "nonsense" or not?

If you choose to go with "or not", then prove your case.

This ought to be good...

Your consistent snot nosed attitude towards others speaks volumes. But I digress. You don't sin.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

If that is what you take from it then you would be saying Paul did not receive eternal life.
Because in chapter 7:14 he called himself carnally minded at that point, and then in 8:6 he shows that he could not stay that way and get the gift of eternal life....

Notice the transition form new convert to maturity in the faith;

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


He shows if he did not move away from that carnal mindset he had in chapter 7 to walking in the Spirit in chapter 8. He would still be serving flesh (sin) and not serving the Lord, and would still be headed to spiritual death instead of eternal life..........

Carnal just means to be in the "flesh" - we are all carnal - that is why the Spirit lusts against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit - these two are contrary one with the other, which is happening in 7:22,23.

Or you tell me - What is "warring" there?

 

[Jason0047]

What does the "incorruptible seed" have to do with the Parable of the Sower? We are born again of the Spirit, "incorruptible seed" by/through the word of God, 1 Peter 1:23. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Rom. 10:17. incorruptible - uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable

Well, I still don't see where I added to 1 John 5:12. - It's pretty easy to figure out - if one does not have the Son - they haven't been born again - as if I didn't know that! And I was explaining to you how one has the Son - A person that is born again has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them through the "incorruptible seed" that God placed within that person by BIRTH. If a person has the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ dwelling in them then they HAVE THE SON and they have ETERNAL life. - which you want to continue to overlook.

You don't understand the concept of birth, plain and simple.

The incorruptible seed is the Word of God in the Parable of Sower. This means that a person can believe the Word of God for a time and can fall away due to persecution and or the cares of this life. Initially, the wicked one takes the seed of the Word out of those who do not believe. But those who do believe did receive the Word with joy but not all those who believed endured. That is the point of the Parable of the Sower.

Also, God's Word not being corruptible does not translate to believers being incorruptible. We know that a believer can fall away because of the Parable of the Sower. Some believed and received the Word with joy but fell away.

As for your explaination on 1 John 5:12: You said before that you can be out of fellowship and still be saved. Yet 1 John 5:12 refutes such thinking. He that does not have the Son does not have life.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

<snip>

I could quote scripture all day but that wouldn't give you MY understanding of those scriptures. Why is it that you cannot answer my questions in your own words? Do you understand what you believe in your own thoughts and mind? I don't see many people going around talking to others, sharing their thoughts and intents in normal conversation by quoting scripture . . . Is that the normal way you talk to others? I am asking for conversation here!

So again - you do not believe that a person is actually born again of Spirit?
And that birth is permanent?
And you believe that when one is born again - that "seed" implanted in them can be corrupted?
For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life - NOT a promise we can depend on but an "only if" promise?
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved - only if, if, if, if . . . . .

 

[Reborn]

In addition, 1 Timothy 6:3 Paul essentially says any man who teaches contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing.

Yes.
This has always been my point with you Jason.

You seem sincere?
But you can be sincere ....and still be wrong brother.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Obviously Paul says this is utterly wrong.

Ephesians 1 NASB
13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation -having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory. ​

What does God's giving the Holy Spirit "as a pledge of our inheritance" mean, Ken? Do you fail to grasp this is a legal real estate term? It is "earnest money," a down payment guaranteeing our redemption "of God's own possession"! -- that would be you, Ken, assuming you actually have faith to believe in Christ, which I think is a very safe assumption.

Outright misrepresentation. That is not the meaning of pisteuo. You have deliberately -- and why am I not surprised? -- given a false definition of the word. Being in the aorist tense in relationship to faith in Christ, it means a one time event with continuing consequences! In other words, belief in Christ for salvation one time to sanctification and eternal life. How dare you deliberately mishandle God's word?

More deliberate misrepresentation. Jesus never used the word.

Sorry but that is not misrepresentation, and go and read the Greek as pisteuo and echo are used in the bible.
This and the Lord does say you have to endure to the end to be saved, not your saved then you endure. And He also does say that you will not get eternal life unless you do the will of God in your life.

Matthew 10:22
And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Yes the meaning of pisteuo is a continuation of belief if you actually go by the whole definition and not just part of it as some like to do;

1. intransitive, to think to be true; to be persuaded of; to credit, place confidence in;
a. universally: the thing believed being evident from the preceding context with an accusative of the thing,, to credit, have confidence, followed by to believe one's words
b. specifically, in a moral and religious reference, of "the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of his soul"; thus it stands α. absolutely to trust in Jesus or in God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something:


When it says do not grieve the Holy Spirit, that is speaking of committing willful sins. For the Holy Spirit was not sent for us to walk in uncleanness (sins), and each time you commit a sin you grieve the Holy Spirit. From there He will convict/chastise you for committing that sin, but the bible says that some will not accept that chastising and continue doing the wrong making themselves illegitimate. And Paul said some of those scriptures I posted in 470, as these are all by Paul.....

1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.




Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, I love you, Brother, and only want what's best for you. Do you believe in Jesus Christ? Yes, you do, and you are saved because of your faith and I rejoice for you. I too believe in Jesus and am saved. I embrace the grace, you do not. Let's agree to disagree and rejoice for one another. If you do not rejoice for me because you feel I am not saved, then all I can say is that my arms to friendship are open to you regardless.

While I am commanded to love everyone (Including my enemies), we are also told not to have fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but we are to rather, reprove them. So if you believe you can sin and be saved, then I am afraid for you. If this is the case: Then I would welcome you to repent of your sins for real. This means confessing and forsaking your sin and walking with Jesus Christ uprightly. For this would be the embrace of the true goodness of God's grace. For if you believe you can sin and still be saved, then what makes you think you can do evil in God's name and be rewarded with God allowing you into Heaven? Is it narrow path that leads unto life or is it the wide gate path? What is easier? To believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine or to be humble before God and confess and forsake sin? How do you know the good guys from the bad guys when you turn on the news or watch a movie? Is not a person's actions proof in what type of person they are? Was not Hitler considered evil because of what he did? Think about it.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Your consistent snot nosed attitude towards others speaks volumes. But I digress. You don't sin.

IOW, you agree that what KJV1611 said was, in fact, nonsensical.

See?

We're in agreement after all.

Now, if you could just keep your false accusations to yourself...

 

[kennethcadwell]

Carnal just means to be in the "flesh" - we are all carnal - that is why the Spirit lusts against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit - these two are contrary one with the other, which is happening in 7:22,23.

Or you tell me - What is "warring" there?

Sorry but no, because if that is the case then we all our headed to the second death in the lake of fire.
Paul makes it very clear that you can not walk in the flesh and walk in the spirit both, and if a person does then they are serving two masters. Which the bible clearly states we can not do, because that lifestyle will still lead you to the second death because you are carnal. Paul is not saying he still continued to remain carnal.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Being a Christian is not easy, that is true.
The thing is though is like I said, go read post #470 as I gave a few scriptures with no commentary of my own. And each one shows that salvation/eternal life is not a current physical possession of ours right now. Which goes hand and hand with pisteuo (continuance of belief) and echo (mental possession, assurance of). Which also shines light on the Lords sayings when He said we must endure and do God's will in our life first before getting eternal life....

so what your saying is.

we are under law and not under grace,

because belief (faith) in christ frees us from the condemnation of the law. as paul said (in fact paul said in eph 1 - 2 all the things we recieve at that moment, including the eternal seal of the spirit, which is our guarantee)

so if lack of belief causes us to lose salvation, then we are back under condemnation of the law. which we were freed from.

this makes no sense.

 

[Jason0047]

Yes.
This has always been my point with you Jason.

If you believe in a sin and be saved doctrine, then I don't see how 1 Timothy 6:3-4 helps you. It would actually work against if you believed in a sin and still be saved doctrine. For Paul essentially says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing. Some OSAS proponents (Not all) say you can sin or be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. This runs contrary to the doctrine of Godliness and the words of Jesus Christ.

You seem sincere?
But you can be sincere ....and still be wrong brother.

While this is true, you would need to prove your case with Scripture for it to be true.

 

[KJV1611]

First, well, if... and I say... if you sin habitually as a way of life several times a day then.... no, I am not like the rest of you. This doesn't mean I am better than you. I am nothing. Christ is everything. I have merely chosen to accept his free gift whereby it has changed my life. Does it make me perfect 100% of my life? No. But Christ does call us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. So your thinking that nobody is perfect is just not true. Christ would not call us to be perfect if he didn't think some of us did not have the chance to be perfect. For without holiness no man shall see the Lord.

Second, you believe I don't admit my sins before God. I believe confession of one's sins is necessary for salvation, so you would be dead wrong, my friend. Do you believe confessing cleanses you of all unrighteousness like 1 John 1:9 says? If you don't think so, then what do you think 1 John 1:9 says?

Third, the phrase "all things are lawful for me" is in reference to court justice in one passage and in eating certain foods in another. It is not talking about the moral law. You can't shoot a person in the head and think you are saved. You can't sleep with a ton of women and think you are saved while doing so. You can't get drunk every night and think you are saved. It doesn't work like that.

Four, you did not address 1 John 1:6-7. Please explain to me what you think it says.

Let me tell you what 1 John 1:6-7 doesn't say first.
It doesn't say: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in sin then we lie.
It says: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness then we lie.

Light is knowledge of scripture, darkness is the absence of knowledge of scripture.

Light says Paul in his saved condition serves the law of God with his mind and serves the law of sin in his flesh.
Darkness says I'm going to change that because it doesn't fit my works salvation doctrine... Paul was really talking about his life before salvation. I am in the light and you are in the darkness. The truth is hidden from you because you turned the light into darkness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If you believe in a sin and be saved doctrine, then I don't see how 1 Timothy 6:3-4 helps you. It would actually work against if you believed in a sin and still be saved doctrine. For Paul essentially says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing. Some OSAS proponents (Not all) say you can sin or be out of fellowship with God and still be saved. This runs contrary to the doctrine of Godliness and the words of Jesus Christ.



While this is true, you would need to prove your case with Scripture for it to be true.

what is sin and saved doctrine?

Are you sinless?

 

[Jason0047]

Let me tell you what 1 John 1:6-7 doesn't say first.
It doesn't say: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in sin then we lie.
It says: If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness then we lie.

Light is knowledge of scripture, darkness is the absence of knowledge of scripture.

Light says Paul in his saved condition serves the law of God with his mind and serves the law of sin in his flesh.
Darkness says I'm going to change that because it doesn't fit my works salvation doctrine... Paul was really talking about his life before salvation. I am in the light and you are in the darkness. The truth is hidden from you because you turned the light into darkness.

Where in 1 John chapter 1-2 does it say darkness is a lack of knowledge involving Scripture? Did you just make that up on your own or did you get that from someone else? I say this because no verse actually says that in 1 John 1-2. Compare 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:4-6. It says in verse 4 if we say we have fellowship with him and we don't keep his commandments we lie. Also, John 3:19-21 also refers to darkness as evil deeds in it's context, too.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Where in 1 John chapter 1-2 does it say darkness is a lack of knowledge involving Scripture? Did you just make that up on your own or did you get that from someone else? I say this because no verse actually says that in 1 John 1-2. Compare 1 John 1:6-7 with 1 John 2:4-6. It says in verse 4 if we say we have fellowship with him and we don't keep his commandments we lie. Also, John 3:19-21 also refers to darkness as evil deeds in it's context, too.

who does not keep his commands? but those who are his enemy (those not born of him)

are you going to tell us that a child of God does not keep his commands?

thus does not support works based gospel.

it supports OSAS.

If your born again, you obey his commands (faith without works is dead)

if you do not obey his commands, your not a child of God (faith without works is dead)

 

[peacefulbeliever]

If that is what you take from it then you would be saying Paul did not receive eternal life.
Because in chapter 7:14 he called himself carnally minded at that point, and then in 8:6 he shows that he could not stay that way and get the gift of eternal life....

Notice the transition form new convert to maturity in the faith;

Romans 7:14
For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

He shows if he did not move away from that carnal mindset he had in chapter 7 to walking in the Spirit in chapter 8. He would still be serving flesh (sin) and not serving the Lord, and would still be headed to spiritual death instead of eternal life..........

Note: For they that are after the flesh do mind the thing of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit [spiritually minded] the things of the Spirit. To be spiritually minded is life and peace . . . to be carnally minded is death - no life, no peace, no joy, no hope. Nothing stated in the verse about eternal life - you are adding the word "eternal".