-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Around and around we go. Where we stop, nobody knows...
What does sabbath mean???? What does the Lord Jesus give us when we come to Him???
How is the sabbath a shadow of things to come??? (Colossians 2:16-17)
[h=1] "2 Timothy 3:7New International Version (NIV)[/h] [SUP]7 [/SUP]always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth."
i guess it's possible, as there exist various difficulties of health and the mind that result in or are obsessive and/or compulsive, that there is a physiological condition that explains this for some, but our prayer is still ongoing, if and as yahweh permits, for their healing in any case. i.e. there's not any way i've seen online to verify why , or even in person why, unless God reveals it.
i guess it's possible, as there exist various difficulties of health and the mind that result in or are obsessive and/or compulsive, that there is a physiological condition that explains this for some, but our prayer is still ongoing, if and as yahweh permits, for their healing in any case. i.e. there's not any way i've seen online to verify why , or even in person why, unless God reveals it.
let me try to give you my point of view on what you have just said.
you said, "What does sabbath mean???? What does the Lord Jesus give us when we come to Him???"
I get what you are trying to say here, that the Sabbath is a symbol of Resting or ceasing from one's own works and resting in Christ's works. and Jesus came to give us rest that we cease from our works.
The Question is what works are we to cease from?
1st the Sabbath:
Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:...
So the work the Sabbath directly teaches to rest from is our weekly work to provide for ourselves.
2nd Jesus Rest:
Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
contextually Jesus has just told them off for not repenting, turning away from their sin. He has come to give them rest and Jesus is directing them to the Old Testament prophet Jeremiah who said:
Jer 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
This passage also is in the same context of Israel not repenting and God instructs them to turn and obey his law.
So the rest Jesus is bringing is rest from sin, sin is breaking the law so by resting in Christ we no longer break the law which the Sabbath is a part off.
This is seen in these verses:
Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Joh 8:33 They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
Now what about Colossians 2:16-17.
Here is the simple answer that shows in my mind very conclusively that the 7th day Sabbath is not being refereed to here.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
"shadow of things to come"
this means future what does the 7th day Sabbath point to?
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
answer: the past not the future.
And the fact that there are ceremonial feast Sabbaths that do indeed point forward makes it easy to see which Sabbath is being spoken of here.
now I will also add that the Jews had a problem that I think also comes into this, they tried to be saved by legalistic working at the law. This of course failed and they remained slaves to sin.
However one can keep the law without being legalistic. it is done by Grace through Faith. Lets take the Sabbath for example.
The Jews kept it but their hearts were in the wrong place.
We keep it because our hearts are transformed.
They kept it to be saved.
We keep it because we are saved.
Their motivation was to be saved.
our motivation is love because we are saved.
They keep it by works.
We keep it by faith and the works follow.
M
Mitspa
Guest
lol don't know if you intended this but that's exactly the picture of Israel ...going around the same mountain over and over and never entering into the promise land...which is a picture of Gods Rest...
Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
The law is not of faith!
These very verses give the problem, you are always quick to point out their unbelief/lack of faith/trust in God. which is right but the author connects disobedience to that unbelief.
Notice the word translated unbelief here:
apistia
and now the word translated in verse 18, "believed not"
apeitheō which means disobey. which is directly connected to the idea of unbelief.
And if you go back and study the Old testament you will see this is indeed correct.
They did not obey because they did not have faith. oh they tried and failed but without faith there can be no obedience.
as it is written:
Rom 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
why did they fail? because they followed after the law of righteousness. why does following after the law of righteousness = failure?
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
notice Paul does not say because the law of righteousness was wrong, (God gave it) he says because they did not seek it by faith. what is "it"
the law of righteousness just mentioned.
in other words the standard of righteousness that the law shows can be attained to only by faith.
Friends I still can't get past the inconsistency of this.
If by faith in Jesus I am transformed by His love and thus keep 9 parts of the law and that is not under the law or works of the law.
how come the same is not said of the 1 part of the law on Sabbath?
its part of the same law.
either it is all kept by faith or none.
either love fulfills it all the same or not at all.
being that love keeps 9 it then also keeps 10.
but you tell me it only keeps 9 and if we keep 10 then we are out of faith.
no wonder people think Christians are weird.
If by faith in Jesus I am transformed by His love and thus keep 9 parts of the law and that is not under the law or works of the law.
how come the same is not said of the 1 part of the law on Sabbath?
its part of the same law.
either it is all kept by faith or none.
either love fulfills it all the same or not at all.
being that love keeps 9 it then also keeps 10.
but you tell me it only keeps 9 and if we keep 10 then we are out of faith.
no wonder people think Christians are weird.
yes, interesting, isn't it? this is an example of the damage done by the leader of the rcc abomination in rome. he wiped out the faith in billions of people, on purpose,
and caused deception and ignorance and worse to flourish.
while we uphold the truth with all that is within us by sheer and amazing grace, and the word of testimony is a fragrant aroma of life to all who believe, the same message we carry is the odor of death to those who don't believe.(see where this is in the NT).
it's partly like this > you and i cannot "get past the inconsistency of this", because there is no consistency, nor any reason other than deception of the enemy for the lack of consistency (i.e. it never makes an sense, and even though it may be the sign of a fatal flaw, it takes the miracle of revelation from our Father in Heaven by grace in Yahshua for anyone to be set free --- even for ourselves, as it has always been dependent on ABBA YAHWEH'S MERCY, and never on any human actions or desires or thoughts.)
M
Mitspa
Guest
this might be interesting , but not in a good way. are you blind, or did you just mis-read what he posted ?
There is no greater inconsistency than people who demand the law is obeyed if you expect to get to Heaven, but they themselves cannot practice what they preach and demand of others
I think Messiah answered this perfectly
New International Version
Mt 23:2-3, "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach."
King James Bible
Mt 23:2-3, "Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not."
Shem Tob's Hebrew Mattithyah
Mattithyah 23:2-3, "The Pharisees and Sages sit upon the seat of Mosheh. Therefore, all that he (Mosheh) says to you, diligently do, but according to thier takanot (reforms) and thier ma'asim (precedents) do not do, because they talk (Torah) but they do not do."
Takanot: reforms or enactments that (falsely) "change or add" to Yahweh's Law.
Ma'asim: acts or deeds that serve as precedents for rabbinic law.
Both Takanot and Ma'asim are laws of the Talmud.
We cant " love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might" if we ignore what He says is loving Him....
Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."
1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."
DO we then ignore the perfect Instructions of the loving Creator as perfectly explained by the Messiah?
Romans 3:28, "For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the Law."
Romans 3:31, "Are we then doing away with the Law through the faith? By no means! Rather, we establish the Law!"
Romans 6:1-2, "What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means!How can we who died to sin still live in it?"
1 John 3:4, "Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the Law: for sin is the transgression of the Law."
2 Thess 2:6-12, "For the mystery of iniquity (secret initiation of lawlessness*) is already working, but the One restraining him will continue to restrain him, until he is made to appear in the midst. And then that lawless one will be revealed, whom Yahshua will remove with the breath of His mouth, and make powerless with the appearance of His coming-- Whose coming is according to the energy of Satan, who works with all power, and signs, and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of sin in those who are perishing, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason, Yahweh will send them strong delusion, that they would believe the deception, In order that all those may be judged as not having believed the truth, but as having delighted in sin."
*What is the "mystery of iniquity" ?
3466 mustérion
mustérion: a mystery or secret doctrine
Short Definition: anything hidden, a mystery
Definition: a mystery, secret, of which initiation is necessary;
458 anomia
anomia: lawlessness
Short Definition:lawlessness, iniquity
Definition:lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin
Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."
Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.
Isayah 42:21, "Yahweh is well-pleased, for His righteousness' sake, to magnify the Law, and make it honorable"
Matti 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
We cant " love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might" if we ignore what He says is loving Him....
Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."
1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."
Malachi 1:6, "A son honors his father, and a servant his ruler. If then I am the Father, where is My honor? If I am the Supreme Ruler, where is My reverence? says Yahweh of hosts to you, O priests, who despise My Name! But you say; How have we despised Your Name?"
1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."
.............
love by any other standard is falsehood, thus:
Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."
"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
Yes, in Matthew 23 Jesus is saying the Pharisees were people who could not live up to what they demanded of others
He also points out the Pharisees could perfectly obey the legalistic laws, that which could be seen on the outside, but the inside of the cup was a very different matter. They were corrupted and full of everything unclean on the inside. They gave every outward appearance they kept the law and demanded others did the same, but they could not obey the law that only they and God knew if they broke
The pharisees rejected the Law of the Creator:
Mattithyah 15:2-3, "Why do Your disciples transgress the traditions of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat. But He answered, and said to them: And why do you transgress the Laws of Yahweh by your traditions?"
Mark 7:5-9, "Then the Pharisees and scribes asked Him; Why do Your disciples not walk according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashed hands? He answered, and said to them: Well has Isayah prophesied of you hypocrites--as it is written: 1This people honors Me with their lips, but their heart is far from Me. But in vain do they worship Me, teaching as doctrine the commandments of men. For laying aside the Law of Yahweh, you hold the tradition of men! Then He said to them: How well you reject the Law of Yahweh, so that you may keep your own tradition!"
They decided they did not need the Creator;s Instruction as you just read they made their own law...
Mark 7:13, "Making the Laws of Yahweh of no effect through your tradition you have handed down! And many other similar things you do."
Just like changing the Sabbath the Messiah prophesied would still be valid in the end times:
Mattithyah 24:20, "But pray that your flight will not be in the winter, nor on the Sabbath Day."
Daniyl 7:25, "And he will speak great words against Yahweh, and will wear out the saints of Yahweh, and think to change times and Laws..."
Mattithyah 12:12, "And how much more valuable is a man than a sheep? Therefore, it is Lawful to do righteousness on the Sabbath."
Matt 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Revelation 21:1-2, "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no more sea. And I, Yahchanan, saw the holy city, Yahweh Shammah, coming down from Yahweh out of heaven, prepared as brides adorned for their husbands. And I heard a great voice out of heaven, saying: Behold, the tabernacle of Yahweh is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they will be His people, and Yahweh Himself will be with them, and be their Father.
John (Yahchanan) 15:4-6, "Abide in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
Romans 13:9-10, "For the commandments: You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bring false testimony, You shall not covet, and all other commandments are summed up in these Laws; namely: You must love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
We cant " love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might" if we ignore what He says is loving Him....
Exodus 20:6, "But showing love to thousands who love Me by keeping My Laws."
Romans 8:5-8 (ESV), "For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."
1 John 5:2-3 (ESV), "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and obey his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome."