Tired of the Big LIE
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I forgot to add the following terms (of which I have been familar with for a long time):
Antinomianism
Hyper Grace
This is Classic OSAS or the teaching that you can live a lifestyle of unrepentant sin and still be saved. For in this teaching no sin can separate you from the love of Christ so living in sin will not effect your right standing with God (or your salvation). It is the teaaching that the moral law does not appy to the believer.
I believe all versions of OSAS stem from this version. While I am sure it can be traced in History (like all false theologies and religions) it is logical deduction that these other versions can be just as equally dangerous in leading people to think they have a license to sin if those teachers of the other versions do not stress the importance of how a belliever must repent and live a holy life if one talks about how your future sin is forgiven you. For if you tell me future sin is forgiven for me and then stop and say nothing more, then you are sending the wrong message. You are leading me to believe that I have a license to sin. In other words, if something was true, telling you just one part of it should not lead a person down the wrong path.
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Sirk
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Why is the eternal state of another man so important to you? What will change for you?
are you asleep or on medicine or alcohol ? you didn't ever answer the question.
i didn't ask what the bible says - i asked where anyone at all said that he (cornelius) didn't need a savior. or did you just come up with that out of thin air for no reason at all ?
here's why, btw, since you got mixed up >
(no one, me or anyone else as far as i know, posted anything that said cornelius was saved without a savior or didn't need a savior)
(no one, me or anyone else as far as i know, posted anything that said cornelius was saved without a savior or didn't need a savior)
I discuss this topic because I care about believer's spiritual well being. I want to see them in heaven and not destroyed, consumed, or turned to ash in the Lake of Fire. I do not want them to think they have a license to sin whereby it will damage their right standing with God. Truth (even part of it) should not lead a person down the wrong road. In other words, if I tell a person that their future sin is forgiven them and do not say anything else, then they ARE going to think they have a license to sin because all future sin is forgiven them. It's taking away the consequences. That's the problem with even the lower level light versions of OSAS that some folks are claiming here. Yes, OSAS Lite, and Mid Range OSAS appear to teach a holiness; But such a teaching is not taught voluntarily with OSAS until you twist the OSAS teachers arm to admit such a thing.
What will teaching the truth of Scripture change for me? I do it out of love for the brethren. From the world's perspective it appears to profit me nothing. However, the world and or the carnal Christian does not understand or practice the famous love chapter of the Bible (i.e. 1 Corinthians 13).
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Sirk
Guest
This is what the bible teaches about eternal security
1) our faith must endure to the end of we are to be saved
2) obedience, evidencing inner renewel from God, is necessary for final salvation
3) Gods elect cannot be lost.
4) there is a falling away of some believers, but if it persists, it shows their faith was not genuine and they were not born of God.
5) God justifies us on the first act of saving faith, but in doing so, he has a view to all subsequent acts of faith contained; as it were, like a seed in the first act.
6) God works to cause His elect to persevere
7) Therefore we should be zealous to make OUR calling and election sure.
from John piper.
1) our faith must endure to the end of we are to be saved
2) obedience, evidencing inner renewel from God, is necessary for final salvation
3) Gods elect cannot be lost.
4) there is a falling away of some believers, but if it persists, it shows their faith was not genuine and they were not born of God.
5) God justifies us on the first act of saving faith, but in doing so, he has a view to all subsequent acts of faith contained; as it were, like a seed in the first act.
6) God works to cause His elect to persevere
7) Therefore we should be zealous to make OUR calling and election sure.
from John piper.
My apologies. I am glad you believe Cornelius needed a Savior (Like all people do). The way you worded it made me think otherwise. However, there is one question that I have for you, though. In what way was Cornelius righteous before receiving the gospel? Was it because he lived a good life alone or because he followed a certain set of Laws in the Torah? Or do you think it might have been like other OT saints whereby they had a spiritual circumcision of the heart with God by repenting of his sins and accepting Him as his Savior (Which would lead to an outpouring of righteous deeds)?
That makes sense because John Piper is a Calvinist. OSAS and Calvinism have a close relationship (Despite many OSAS proponents protests). OSAS is an offshoot of Calvinism. Even if you didn't look at history, you can see the relation in their doctrines. Hyper Calvinism teaches free will does not exist either before or after a person accepts Christ. OSAS teaches free will does not exist after a person accepts Christ. The regenerate or spiritually born again believer cannot unchoose God or walk away from Him. They can't change their mind. They are forced to continue to believe in God. Once they checked in, they can't check out. They are forever saved.
Anyways, your list above doesn't follow with the Parable of the Sower (In addition to many verses in the Bible).
We clearly see that those who accepted the seed of the Word had conquered the devil by the fact that the wicked one was not able to take the seed of the Word out of their heart in believing. They received the Word with joy. They were true believers because the devil did not suceed in taking the Word out of their heart in believing. However, not all of those who received the Word were successful in enduring in their faith. Some had let the cares of this life or persecution destroy their faith. Yet another had endured and produced much fruit.
Also, read James 5:19-20. It shows that a believer can backslide into sin whereby they need to be saved or converted by anotherr believer back to the truth or the faith to the saving of their soul and the covering of their sin (With them repenting of their backslidden ways to the Lord). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).
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eternally-gratefull
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You are not sinless. You will not be sinless (unless you are blessed by Gods grace to enter eternity with the perfect body, glorified in him) and in your belief, no one will be saved. no one could possibly be saved. period.
I am perfected in Christ, AS I AM BEING Sanctified.
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Again, there is that pesky word which destroys your self centered, carnal belief system. FOREVER!
Sanctification is an ongoing process. every minute of every day we are being sanctified until we die. which means we HAVE NOT REACHED PERFECTION
p.s. edit. double check in acts about cornelius. some of the other is verified elsewhere (might get back to it later today or another day, yahweh willing).
Cornelius gave much to the poor Jews, and all the Jews in the country respected him, which was extremely unusual as he was a gentile (and otherwise all gentiles were considered(and were) sinners by the Jews and no upright Jew would be caught associating with a gentile at any time, practically.
Cornelius very likely observed all ten commandments, as otherwise he would not have been considered righteous - this was the same for any gentiles at any time of other nations, practically - the only ones considered righteous were the ones who kept the law,
both before the good news of yahshua,
and afterwards.
the very thought of breaking a commandment would never even be a consideration for a gentile who trusted yahweh --- that was an abominable error that crept in or burst in by vicious wolves after paul departed, exactly as he said would happen.
it has been going on for so long, "man's traditions have usurped God's Word" in most of the world's churches.
both the OT and the NT gentiles who were trusting yahweh kept torah faithfully. they did not willfully break the commandments, and if they did, they repented or were put out of fellowship until they repented (i think this is clear in corinthians). for almost 500 years after the NT was written, both Jewish and gentile believers kept the 7th day sabbath exactly as the commandments always say.
it wasn't until the heresy gained power that that changed, and it was by hasatan's work that it changed(as if it could) through the heresy.
the true disciples after that were often murdered by the heresy if they worked on sun-god-day and if they wouldn't work on 7th day.
p.p.s. no one in the old testament/torah was circumcised of heart. that wasn't until NT.
Cornelius gave much to the poor Jews, and all the Jews in the country respected him, which was extremely unusual as he was a gentile (and otherwise all gentiles were considered(and were) sinners by the Jews and no upright Jew would be caught associating with a gentile at any time, practically.
Cornelius very likely observed all ten commandments, as otherwise he would not have been considered righteous - this was the same for any gentiles at any time of other nations, practically - the only ones considered righteous were the ones who kept the law,
both before the good news of yahshua,
and afterwards.
the very thought of breaking a commandment would never even be a consideration for a gentile who trusted yahweh --- that was an abominable error that crept in or burst in by vicious wolves after paul departed, exactly as he said would happen.
it has been going on for so long, "man's traditions have usurped God's Word" in most of the world's churches.
both the OT and the NT gentiles who were trusting yahweh kept torah faithfully. they did not willfully break the commandments, and if they did, they repented or were put out of fellowship until they repented (i think this is clear in corinthians). for almost 500 years after the NT was written, both Jewish and gentile believers kept the 7th day sabbath exactly as the commandments always say.
it wasn't until the heresy gained power that that changed, and it was by hasatan's work that it changed(as if it could) through the heresy.
the true disciples after that were often murdered by the heresy if they worked on sun-god-day and if they wouldn't work on 7th day.
p.p.s. no one in the old testament/torah was circumcised of heart. that wasn't until NT.
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eternally-gratefull
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wow dude, you have an imagination. Was you the perfect kid? How can someone be a baby in Christ (as say the corinthian church who suffered in deed sexual sin and had to be chastened by paul) and be perfect in love?
Your telling me a person is sanctified (perfected) completely the moment they trust Christ and he enters them?
I understand your passion against a licentious gospel. I am there with you. But your hate and anger has clouded your mind. so you can;t see straight.
I never claimed to be sinless. I know on a daily basis I do something for self, and not others, The more I grow in Christ, the more wretched I find that I am (because I become more away of what sin is)
I am not suck on some law, and trying to say I am a good boy because I do not break my interpretation of it (as say the pharisees were, and I did in my younger years)
You have a hard time with what God says. I am not saying it God did.
A child of God can not live in habitual sin, That is what John said, He can;t do it.
He never said he can;t sin, in fact he said if we say we are sinless, we are liars,
I do not know what kind of parent you are. But mine never let me out until I admitted what I did was wrong, and confessed that to them.
I was still their child. they did not kick me out of their family,
Why do you want to have God kick you out of his family if you fall, and not not show the unconditional love he promises? Your making God a more evil father than most earthly fathers.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
i think you're referring to the doctrine known as Union with Christ?
it does not mean we can BE Jesus.
it means we now freely receive everything Jesus earned.
if I may add, it also means we have the power to become more christlike, that power of course, being the same power which powered him, the Holy Spirit.
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Sirk
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JesusistheChrist
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J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
You really should read the rest of Hebrews chapter 10...and the entire epistle to the Hebrew CHRISTIANS as well.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
actually I have studied it often and quite deeply. if people would study it, they would see how it destroys their self imposed, self centered religion of works and trying to earn their way to heaven, like the hebrews were doing.
do you think I would find the author of hebrews contradict himself. and not say when he just said?
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Contrary to the rewrites of scripture/history which are regularly propagated here by many, the epistle to the Hebrews has to do with turning away from ALL TYPES OF SIN. For example, we read:
Hebrews chapter 3
[1] Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;
[2] Who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
[3] For this man was counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as he who hath builded the house hath more honour than the house.
[4] For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.
[5] And Moses verily was faithful in all his house, as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken after;
[6] But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
[7] Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
[8] Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
[9] When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
[10] Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
[11] So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)
[12] Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
[13] But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
[14] For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
[15] While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.
[16] For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
[17] But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
[18] And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
[19] So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
What types of sins caused the majority of the children of Israel to be overthrown in the wilderness IN GOD'S WRATH?
Was it simply a matter of "their self imposed, self centered religion of works and trying to earn their way to heaven" as you allege?
Not even close...so spare me/us the rewrites of scripture/history, okay?
Paul gives us a pretty good overview of their sins here:
I Corinthians chapter 10
[1] Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
[2] And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
[3] And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
[4] And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
[5] But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
[6] Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
[7] Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
[8] Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
[9] Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
[10] Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
[11] Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
[12] Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
The children of Israel's sins included such things as "lusting after evil things", "idolatry", "fornication", "tempting Christ" and "murmuring" so, again, let's not rewrite scripture/history, okay? Why do you suppose that Paul warned his CHRISTIAN readers who "thought they stood" to "TAKE HEED LEST THEY FALL"? Don't tell me...let me guess...because Paul allegedly believed in "once saved, always saved", right? Don't kid yourself, friend. Also, don't even bother attempting to convince me or anybody else here for that matter that the type of "fall" which Paul was here describing was anything other than THE SAME EXACT TYPE OF FALLING THAT HE HAD JUST FINISHED DESCRIBING IN RELATION TO THE ISRAELITES OF OLD. Their "fall" will ultimately result in ETERNAL DAMNATION...even as GOD HAS SWORN that these same will not enter in His rest.
It's not a matter of "contradiction", but rather a matter of you not understanding what he actually said. Again continuing on, we read:eternally-gratefull said:
Hebrews chapter 10
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
[15] Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[17] And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
[18] Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
[19] Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
[20] By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
[21] And having an high priest over the house of God;
[22] Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
[23] Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised):
[24] And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
[25] Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.
[26] For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
[27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
[28] He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
[29] Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
[30] For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
[31] It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
By WILLFULLY SINNING AFTER HAVING BEEN SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT, CHRISTIANS put themselves in a position where they have A CERTAIN FEARFUL LOOKING FOR OF JUDGMENT AND FIERY INDIGNATION WHICH SHALL DEVOUR THE ADVERSARIES.
Does that sound like "once saved, always saved" to you?
If it does, then I doubt that there's any hope for you.
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
I hope you did not spend alot of time on this, and think this proves your point.
The people of Israel in the wilderness did not enter Gods rest because they did not believe him.
1. They did not trust him to provide for them (even though he gave them manna and water)
2. they wanted to go back to Egypt (to their state of being slaves)
3. They did not trust that God could give them what God promised them (The did not think God would defeat the giants in the land)
4. Since they did not trust God (as proved by their lack of works) they were never born of God. Since they were never born of God. they lived in sin, (Proof of this is in the book of 1 John, [SUP]6 [/SUP]Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
so why you would use a passage which proves an unbeliever will never get to heaven, to prove I am wrong, is to be honest beside myself.
Hebrews is more than about telling people to get help to walk away from sin, and showing examples of what happens when we do not turn and trust God. It is also about using religion to try to replace faith in the work of God for our salvation.
As I just proved above, You the one who does not understand what your reading, your trying to twist it to keep enslaved to a works based gospel. and failing to repent and give your eternity to God. but I will read on.
Yeah it does.. why?
lets see what he said.
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (a person who is born again is perfected FOREVER, while he is CURRENTLY being sanctified)
[15] Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
[16] This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;[/quote] It is God who rights his law in our hearts and empowers us to do them, Not our self will, self effort. which those who deny eternal security have to preach, because there is no other explanation why they would deny this fact.
God does not remember our sins and iniquites. why? they were paid for by his son in the cross. he purches us with his blood
so, why do people go on making som offering for sin over and over? Is killing an animal (in this case0 repenting, doing some religious act of penance or installing a penalty to allow God to forgive us going to help us? Christ died once, why do we want to crucify christ again and put him to open shame?
The veil was broke. no longer does the high priest enter once a year to make atonement for sin. Christ died once, we can have boldness to come to the presence of God. because he has already forgiven us, We do not need to fear. God loves us unconditionally.
Full assurance and faith.
That is true faith, I have it, thats why I can come to God. And I KNOW HE WILL SAVE ME.
If I do not have full assurance in the blood of Christ, I have no faith.
as for the sinners he spoke of. Not everyone he spoke to was saved, not everyone in your church service is saved. They need to be shown truth also. Just like the jews in the wilderness rejected God, yet continued with the assembly (church of isreal) they sined because they di not trust God. and because of it they did not enter the promised land.
I will enter the promised land (heaven) because I am saved, and I have the confident assurance of this fact.
I pray you one day find this assurance yourself.
Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):
Deuteronomy 10:16
"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."
"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."
"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."
"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."
"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."
"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."
Ezekiel 11:19
"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"
"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"
"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."
Acts 7:51
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."
Philippians 3:3
"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."
28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"
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