Tired of the Big LIE

[Utah]

if you confess and repent of your sins....do you still have sins or are they all forgiven???...if all your sins are forgiven ...you are without sin...or are you not?.....so when you find out you are without sin... do you go and deliberately sin so that you cannot be without sin...to prove your case...

I usually do not deliberately sin, but I am a sinner nonetheless.

Jesus loves me regardless, and welcomes me according to my repentant heart and faith in Him.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

[kennethcadwell]

so, is this post a joke ?
and accordingly he doesn't think saying DARN is not a sin ? (I don't think even stronger words are sin, when spoken as ABBA gives forth utterance.(as in all things- let your yes be yes, and your no be no; and let every word be as ABBA gives utterance, and let ever act and deed be doing what ABBA does.... yes, every word, every act, even every thought, Yahweh is willing and accomplishes this as His Word says, in those who trust Him to accompllish this. so rare, almost 'unbelievable', eh? keep seeking Yahweh Himself ! ).

Well I can not speak for him, but I took it as a joke which is why I said he sinned twice then because he said both words then followed if with LOL and a smiley face. Because I do not think saying darn is a sin, and neither does the bible list as one. And even if he was being serious just because he may feel that word is a sin, would not actually mean I did sin. As it is His word that matters and not how we feel or think. The bible does give us insight of a lot of sins in the scriptures though, so it is not hard to see what is and what isn't sin.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Salvation is based on our belief in the Lord Jesus Christ !!!

I believe that is what I said.

Nobody is denying this, or at least they shouldn't be. However the part of believing in Him is not just He existed, died on the cross to give us remission of sins, and rose on the third day. There is more to that than this, as Jesus says clearly that one who believes in Him hears what He says and does it.
Follows all of His teachings, commands, and walking properly in the Spirit in love, forgiveness, and mercy. You can not say ones walk does not matter about salvation, because the bible makes it clear that if one is walking contrary to what the Lord said they are not His. In other words not truly born again in the Spirit !!!
Confession for future sins that are committed still have to be made in order to be cleansed of that unrighteousness by the Lord. Unless one falsely believes they never sin again at all.

The bolded is exactly what we should believe to receive salvation.

What you describe in the last paragraph is our walk after salvation and unless you have the Spirit born within which comes by John 3:16, and Romans 10:9,10 - you can not walk by the Spirit. There is salvation which makes you a child of God the comes the walk, i.e. fellowship. Just as you are born in a family first before you are a part of that family and have a relationship within that family - you must be saved, born into the family of God then comes your relationship within the household.

 

[posthuman]

I have said before that some of us have a different definition of what is sin than others.
I define the use of the word DARN a sin because it is a substitute for damn.
So by my definition, you sinned today,

Then that would mean you just sinned twice since you said both words, right ?.............LOL

i just want to interject that Jah has blessed me with such wealth that when my socks become "holey" i have no need to DARN them -- i can afford to get a new pair!

 

[kennethcadwell]

I believe that is what I said.

The bolded is exactly what we should believe to receive salvation.

What you describe in the last paragraph is our walk after salvation and unless you have the Spirit born within which comes by John 3:16, and Romans 10:9,10 - you can not walk by the Spirit. There is salvation which makes you a child of God the comes the walk, i.e. fellowship. Just as you are born in a family first before you are a part of that family and have a relationship within that family - you must be saved, born into the family of God then comes your relationship within the household.

The part you highlighted that I said is only part of belief in Him, as you still want to not take the whole meaning of believe in Him that the Lord says. He says comes, hears, and does. And the doing part shows true belief in Him, without the doing it shows no true belief in Him. The Lord gives 3 clear parts to belief in Him, coming to Him, hearing what He says, and then doing all that He said.
Take this with James 1:22 that goes hand and hand with what the Lord said, and James says if you hear only but do not do what the Lord said then you are deceived. You still have it come, hear, get salvation, then do; when the actual order is come, hear, do, then get salvation. For the Lord clearly says in Matthew 7:21 that you are to do the will of God in your life first, then you get eternal life.....

 

[peacefulbeliever]

So are you saying we don't need to repent, get baptized, and confess future sins to receive remission ?

If that is what you are saying I can show you a number of scriptures from the bible that would disagree with you if that is how you feel. The Lord makes it very clear that we will not inherit eternal life, if we do not receive remission of sins (Luke 13:3), if we do not forgive others, and if we do not live out God's will in our life. People want to constantly put eternal life as a physical possession of ours right now, when it is only a mental assurance based on our continuation of faith in Him. Pisteuo and echo, is words that all need to study and read their full meanings.....
I gave earlier in this thread a few scriptures that show eternal life/salvation comes at the end of our faith, not up front;

Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

I hope that you did not underline "hope of eternal life" as we are suppose to "hope" [in today's meaning] as in I only hope I have eternal life, or I am wishing to gain eternal life . . . because "hope" had a much stronger intent then than in our English vernacular.

hope - elpis -

1. expectation of evil, fear
   
2. expectation of good, hope
   
   1. in the Christian sense
      
   2. joyful and confident expectation of eternal salvation
3. on hope, in hope, having hope
   
4. the author of hope, or he who is its foundation
   
5. the thing hoped for
   
   We are to have an EXPECTATION, JOYFUL, CONFIDENT EXPECTATION of eternal salvation, i.e. eternal life. It has been promised!
   
   

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The part you highlighted that I said is only part of belief in Him, as you still want to not take the whole meaning of believe in Him that the Lord says. He says comes, hears, and does. And the doing part shows true belief in Him, without the doing it shows no true belief in Him. The Lord gives 3 clear parts to belief in Him, coming to Him, hearing what He says, and then doing all that He said.
Take this with James 1:22 that goes hand and hand with what the Lord said, and James says if you hear only but do not do what the Lord said then you are deceived. You still have it come, hear, get salvation, then do; when the actual order is come, hear, do, then get salvation. For the Lord clearly says in Matthew 7:21 that you are to do the will of God in your life first, then you get eternal life.....

To include works into the equation with salvation - you believe in a work based salvation.

Even when the apostles asked what shall we do that we might work the works of God - and Jesus answered them: This is the work of God that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

James 1:22 - you can't do the word without salvation FIRST.

Yes this is the order - (bold from above) hear, get salvation, then do- hear the word - faith comes by hearing; then Romans 10:9,10; NOW you begin your WALK, your FELLOWSHIP, Your DOING. . . .

 

[Jason0047]

Then don't have fellowship with me, that's on you. Jesus has fellowship with me and that's the only thing that matters.

In my two months here I have been blessed to make the acquaintance of some wonderful children of God, in fact, God willing, one brother and I will be meeting for worship and a baseball game this Summer. Imagine that, two sinners in fellowship together in the midst of many other sinners, both in worship and at the game. And what did Jesus say about two or more gathering in His name? That's right, Jesus will be with us also.

And for the record, what do you think is more humble, to admit you're a sinner in need of God's grace and guidance or telling the world you're not a sinner and not in need of God's grace and guidance? That's actually a rhetorical question.

I am trying to understand where you are coming from. I want to state again, that I do not believe every believer will live perfectly sinless the moment they repent of their sins and accept Christ. But they will not abide in unrepentant sin as a way of life after they receive Christ. Meaning, there is a difference between stumbling on occasion and being fallen the entire time. The stumble type confesses their sin and they forsake it with God's help. They strive to not sin in their life because they know sin had once separated Adam and Eve from God. Then there is the fallen type. Those who think they can be fallen into a lifestyle of sin as a way of life with the thinking that they are saved. Meaning, no sin can separate them from the love of Christ. Sure, they might have a righteous attitude sometimes, but confessing and forsaking sin is not necessary for salvation for the fallen type. The fallen types behavior is no different than that of an unbeliever. So my question is: Are you the stumble type of believer or are you the fallen type of believer?

Please forgive me of the labels involved. I am merely trying to understand where you are coming from.

Also, you have to realize that God does not refer to his followers as sinners after they are saved. Believers are referred to as saints and not sinners once they have been converted, or born again, whereby they follow Jesus and His good ways.

Oh, and please take note:

Holiness and fruitful works are not done so as to be saved, but they are merely the proof that you have been saved. Just as a real fire puts off heat versus say a TV image of a fire. The real thing has real results.

 

[Jason0047]

so...

are you perfect, Jason?

are you completely without sin? ready and qualified to 'cast the first stone' ?

i confess i'm not. daily.

Again, by asking this you are making the assumption that no believer can be perfect. But Jesus said for us to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect. If Jesus did not believe we could be perfect, then why did he tell us to be perfect? Oh, and as I said before, believers can stumble but they do not remain fallen down in the mud. They get clean thru Jesus Christ and walk uprightly with Him.

Let me ask you a simple question. Do you believe a believer can live a lifestyle of unrepentant sin, then die, and still be saved? Yes or no?

Please take note:

That I am not talking about the believer who may stumble on occasion and gets their heart right with God by confessing and forsaking their sin (Like David).

 

[Jason0047]

Wow! You just described yourself to a T

In order for your statement to be true, you actually have to back it up with some facts that would line up with 1 Timothy 6:3-4. So far, Paul is saying that if any man teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing. When I mention the words "Forsake sin", I have gotten the remark that such words are legalistic. Is not such a reply contrary to the doctrine of Godliness and the words of Jesus Christ? If you believe otherwise, please explain.

 

[Jeff_56]

in the bible: cornelius was a gentile. to the Jews, all gentiles were pagan sinners.

in the bible: but cornelius was righteous. (even to the whole nation of Jews).

in the bible:and this was BEFORE peter was sent to him.

now go figure how cornelius, (in the bible), a gentile sinner, could be RIGHTEOUS, even before being immersed in yahshua.....


and some 'believers?!' today who claim to have the holy spirit are not considered RIGHTEOUS by anybody !? (except themselves)

 

[Jason0047]

i think so. OSAS = "once saved, always saved"

ugh, labels

Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)
Eternal Security (Baptist Term)
Unconditional Eternal Security
Free Grace
Free Grace Movement
Preserverance of the Saints (Calvinism Version) (a.k.a: POTS)

Hyper Calvinists believe nobody has free will.

Although most will not admit it,
Classic OSAS proponents essentially are saying free will in regards to salvation does not exist after you are saved.

My categorization of OSAS based on people's different beliefs regarding it:

OSAS Classic
This is the false view that you can abide in unrepentant sin and or live however you like and still be saved. Belief in Jesus is all you need to get thru the gates of Heaven.

Mid Range OSAS
This is the false view that a believer cannot live a habitual lifestyle of sin. However, abiding in one or two unrepentant sins before you die will not necessarily send you to the Lake of Fire.

OSAS Lite
This is the false view that you have to be penitent and live a holy life in order for OSAS to be true. If you do not repent and you do not live holy, then you were never born again to begin with.

Another false doctrine that is tied to OSAS and is popular at TOL (Theology Online)::

Mid Acts Dispensationalism (MAD)
This is the false teaching that there are two or more gospels under the New Testament. This false doctrine was created no doubt for people to deny the holy teachings of Jesus Christ. Which is popular among Classic OSAS proponents. For Paul's words on holiness are easier to twist than Jesus' words.

 

[Jason0047]

in the bible: cornelius was a gentile. to the Jews, all gentiles were pagan sinners.

in the bible: but cornelius was righteous. (even to the whole nation of Jews).

in the bible:and this was BEFORE peter was sent to him.

now go figure how cornelius, (in the bible), a gentile sinner, could be RIGHTEOUS, even before being immersed in yahshua.....


and some 'believers?!' today who claim to have the holy spirit are not considered RIGHTEOUS by anybody !? (except themselves)

He still needed a Savior, though. For all have fallen short of the glory of God. For there is no salvation in any other name but Jesus Christ.

 

[Angela53510]

Jason, we are getting tired of your invented lists which only serve to perpetuate the misunderstanding you have of soteriology.

I, for one, am also fed up with your perpetual straw man that saved people who "continually sin" are Christians at all.

No one here is preaching antinomianism. We all believe that if you are truly saved, you want to obey God.

Of course, disobeying God can have many consequences, like being in a spiritual desert, until the person repents. But lose their salvation, NEVER!!

You teach a perfidious and erroneous doctrine of death. Who knows if they are good enough to be saved by works? Only an egotists or prideful person would ever claim to be good enough for Jesus.

Which is exactly why we need a Saviour!

"And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone." Mark 10:18

God alone, in Christ Jesus was good enough! Anything else is a lie from the pit of hell! (I know, you don't really believe in eternal hell, another one of your screwed up special doctrines!)

 

[Summertime]

The Hebrew word 'perfect' actually meant 'complete' or 'mature' so the scriptures are stating that we are to be mature in Him.

I hope this helps, it has helped me understand this.

 

[Jeff_56]

so? show me where i or anyone said he didn't need a savior.....

He still needed a Savior, though. For all have fallen short of the glory of God. For there is no salvation in any other name but Jesus Christ.

 

[newbirth]

1. 
   
   We are to have an EXPECTATION, JOYFUL, CONFIDENT EXPECTATION of eternal salvation, i.e. eternal life. It has been promised!
   
   

to those who obey him...the HS is also a promise....
Hebrews 5:9
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[Jason0047]

so? show me where i or anyone said he didn't need a savior.....

I quoted two verses to you already. They should be more than sufficient.

 

[newbirth]

Of course, disobeying God can have many consequences, like being in a spiritual desert, until the person repents. But lose their salvation, NEVER!!

what if the person did not repent of their sins and dies in their sinful state.....do they get a free pass to eternal salvation abiding in sin???

 

[newbirth]

I usually do not deliberately sin, but I am a sinner nonetheless.

Jesus loves me regardless, and welcomes me according to my repentant heart and faith in Him.

The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

“But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

“I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

you did not answer all the questions...Jesus loves the whole world not only you.....that’s why he died for us...

1)if you confess and repent of your sins....do you still have sins or are they all forgiven???...

2)if all your sins are forgiven ...you are without sin...or are you not?.....

3)so when you find out you are without sin... do you go and deliberately sin so that you cannot be without sin...to prove your case...