Can a Christian be sinless, perfect?

[newbirth]

"Perfect" not meaning "sinless," but "complete,"
Col 2:10-15 declares that the Christian is complete (perfect) in Christ.

And yes, we must practice godliness, but we will not be sinless.

so you are saying you can be perfect in sinfulness ??? then you will be a perfect sinner....not perfect in Christ....you cannot have sin and be in Christ...
Do you believe if you confess your sins God will forgive you and cleanse you from all unrighteousness???? If you do ... ... from the time you are forgiven to the time you sin again how many sins do you have????....

 

[Elin]

"Perfect" not meaning "sinless," but "complete,"
Col 2:10-15 declares that the Christian is complete (perfect) in Christ.

And yes, we must practice godliness (Heb12:14), but we will not be sinless (1Jn 1:8-10).

so you are saying you can be perfect in sinfulness ???

Actually I am saying what Col 2:10-15, Heb 12:14 and 1Jn 1:8-10 say.

 

[newbirth]

Actually I am saying what Col 2:10-15, Heb 12:14 and 1Jn 1:8-10 say.

no you are not...you are complete in Christ ...there is no sin in Christ...

[h=1]Colossians 2:10-15King James Version (KJV)[/h]10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

it says follow peace and holiness...it dosen't say follow sin.....


[h=1]Hebrews 12:14King James Version (KJV)[/h]14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

you can not have it both ways if he cleanse you of all unrighteousness...and you still have unrighteousness ...it means you were not cleansed of all unrighteousness....if you cannot figure it out vs 8 and 10 is our position outside Christ vs 9 is our position in Christ you choose...

[h=1]1 John 1:8-10King James Version (KJV)[/h]8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[Jeff_56]

good.

agreeing with yahweh is good.

or , could someone say, is someone saying >> "God is not able" to do what He says ?

(this is a favorite deception of the anti-god of this earth) - (question God make people think "did God say?")

 

[Elin]

no you are not...you are complete in Christ ...there is no sin in Christ...

Colossians 2:10-15King James Version (KJV)

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

it says follow peace and holiness...it dosen't say follow sin.....


Hebrews 12:14King James Version (KJV)

14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

you can not have it both ways if he cleanse you of all unrighteousness...and you still have unrighteousness ...it means you were not cleansed of all unrighteousness....if you cannot figure it out vs 8 and 10 is our position outside Christ vs 9 is our position in Christ you choose...

1 John 1:8-10King James Version (KJV)

8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

That's a little more torquing

 

[Elin]

.
Correction of previous post, #85:

vs 8 and 10 is our position outside Christ vs 9 is our position in Christ

you choose...

1 John 1:8-10King James Version (KJV)

8If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

That's a false hermeneutic.

 

[newbirth]

.
Correction of previous post, #85:


That's a false hermeneutic.

are you saying you can abide in Christ with sin???

 

[ChristInUs]

To the OP NOPE no way know how. We will sin and do it daily. Thank God for the cross.

 

[gotime]

Actually that was good. what is John saying:

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
1Jn 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

notice that if we do not "do" the truth if we walk in darkness but if we walk in light then the blood cleanses us from all sin.

Where do we start then, in light or darkness?

Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

So we start in darkness and come into the light. So in order to come into the light and receive forgiveness we must acknowledge that we are sinners in need of cleansing thus the next verse:


1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

this verse lines up with verse 6 that said those who walk in darkness do not the truth.

So what happens then if we acknowledge our sin?

1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

we are forgiven and cleansed that means no more sin. but then the sentiment from verse 8 is repeated:

1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

So the issue that John is dealing with here is that only those who know their sinners and confess can find forgiveness.

There is no hint at all that John is trying to state a constant truth that we will never be able to be without sin. In fact He makes that clear in the next verse:

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

He wrote it so that we wont sin. The next part is not suggesting we will but is on the same vain as He was speaking on last chapter. Namely if you see your sin don't be discouraged we have an advocate.

What makes it more abundantly clear is the very fact that After dealing here with the cleansing power of Jesus blood and intercession before the Father John goes on to speak of the victory of the one who has acknowledged Their sin and been cleansed.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

notice that the same Idea is being used here. remember chapter 1:

1Jn 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

No fellowship we do not the truth and again here, If we do not keep the commandments then we don't know Him. both use the word lie/liar.

and again skipping to chapter 3 to keep it shorter:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
1Jn 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

So John most clearly begins with where we start, in darkness and sin, but when we come into the light we confess our sins and Jesus cleanses us form all unrighteousness. Then by Christ in us we cease to sin. In other words we cease from our works/sin. for the wages (wages are paid to workers) of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus.

If you continue to sin then you still work and have not yet found rest in Christ. why not do so now, accept his promises and hold them by faith. see what happens.

 

[Jeff_56]

regardless

of

anything

will you walk in the light today, or continue walking in darkness ? (everyone starts in darkness)

whether

you're

perfect

or not. will you walk in the light today, or continue to walk in the darkness ?

do your past friends wonder why you don't party with them ? do they wonder why you don't do drugs anymore ? do they wonder why you don't sleep around any more ? (you don't even touch a woman other than the love of your life, you're wife forever) j do they wonder why you won't gamble anymore?

do your past friends wonder why you don't go to dirty movies any more ? (maybe finally to no movies at all)

the list is long. everything the world permits and says is okay. have you started to <STOP>, or do you
still like the things of the world ?










hermeneutic.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

To the OP NOPE no way know how. We will sin and do it daily. Thank God for the cross.

But we should /still/ strive to go without it, not to be justified by our works, but to honor the gift given to us :3

 

[Elin]

are you saying you can abide in Christ with sin???

I am saying what 1Jn 1:8-10 says according to legitimate hermeneutics.

 

[Jeff_56]

thankfully to yahweh abba and with great rejoicing in yahshua , truth-life-spirit-word all trump hermeneutics and yahweh always watches over his word to guard it, and yahweh reveals truth to his own.

as yahshua gave great praise and thanks to abba father in heaven, because he hid the truth and salvation from the educated who even know what hermeneutics means and even all the hebrew, greek and aramaic,

and he freely graciously mercifully and fully revealed truth and salvation and the fullness of everything
related to salvation
and gave the power to become sons of yahweh
to
the
uneducated.


simple, pure, true, holy, and without dispute. (several times someone asked in several threads why there's such a mess on this forum and many times in the chat rooms --- it's because everyone's so educated ! )

 

[Elin]

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin,
we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

He wrote it so that we wont sin. The next part is not suggesting we will but is on the same vain as He was speaking on last chapter. Namely
if you see your sin don't be discouraged we have an advocate.

More hermeneutical nonsense.

John is not writing to unbelievers in grip of the view of their sin.

He is writing to believers, "my little children," whose sin has been forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.
Believers don't need an advocate with the Father for their past sin, it is all forgiven,
so for what forgiveness is the advocate pleading?

The advocate is going to plead for the forgiveness of new sin after coming to saving faith.

 

[Rudimental]

​Really! Is it possible that we can survive one day without sin?
Why did Jesus command such an impossible thing when He said, "Be perfect even as your Father which is heaven is perfect", and then contradicting, "No one is good accept God"

It is not a contradiction. These are 2 verses from 2 different books of the bible.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Mark 10:18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

What you need to do is read the context of them. The surrounding text that lead up to Jesus saying that to get a better understanding of why they were said and what they mean.

For example; Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:48 to strive to be like God. He knows we could never be "perfect" like God while we are yet on this earth. But to strive to be like God. Merciful and righteous.

And in Mark 10:18 Jesus was talking to the man that ran up to Him and asked Him what he needed to do to inherit eternal life.

He wasn't contradicting Himself. He was simply telling the man what he needed not to do.

 

[gotime]

More hermeneutical nonsense.

John is not writing to unbelievers in grip of the view of their sin.

He is writing to believers, "my little children," whose sin has been forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.
Believers don't need an advocate with the Father for their past sin, it is all forgiven,
so for what forgiveness is the advocate pleading?

The advocate is going to plead for the forgiveness of new sin after coming to saving faith.

Prove your point from the text instead of throwing wild accusations. context friend context, I used more than one text to make my point.

You assume its new sin but the text does not say that, Is John addressing believers, Yes that is clear. But is it new sins they need help with of sins they come to realize were already in their life but did not see till they came closer to Jesus?

John is clear that the reason He wrote these things is so they "sin not" so John clearly believes that in Jesus we can cease from sin/works of the Devil.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Sin is breaking the commandments, so if those who know Him keep them then they are not sinning, simple. see 1John 3:4 for Johns definition of sin.

1Jn 2:26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.

The issue for which John is writing is people seducing the believers and deceiving them as to the truth. what is this deception?

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

sounds to me like some here are twisting Johns own words.

John is clear that the deception is people saying that you can be righteous and do unrighteous/sinful acts.

People are teaching that the Devil still has power over the believer to cause them to sin. but John says that Christ overcame the Devil and destroyed His works. that those who are born of God continue no more in sin because Christ is in them.

 

[psychomom]

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


For example; Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:48 to strive to be like God. He knows we could never be "perfect" like God while we are yet on this earth. But to strive to be like God. Merciful and righteous.

hey there, Rudi...belated welcome!

do you think "be perfect" isn't really what the Lord Jesus meant?
in what context did He say it? what else was he saying in that sermon?

thanks for answering, if you choose to do so.
-ellie

ps--i am a sinner saved by grace; not a 'sinless perfectionist'.
and i never really thought i'd have to make that clarification.

 

[prodigal]

.....

 

[Elin]

More hermeneutical nonsense.

John is not writing to unbelievers in grip of the view of their sin.

He is writing to believers, "my little children," whose sin has been forgiven by faith in Jesus Christ.
Believers don't need an advocate with the Father for their past sin, it is all forgiven,
so for what forgiveness is the advocate pleading?

The advocate is going to plead for the forgiveness of new sin after coming to saving faith.

Prove your point from the text instead of throwing wild accusations. context friend context, I used more than one text to make my point.

Sorry. . .your hermeneutic is so contra-Biblical, it is shocking at first.

You assume its new sin but the text does not say that, Is John addressing believers, Yes that is clear. But
is it new sins they need help with or sins they come to realize were already in their life but did not see till they came closer to Jesus?

If sins were in their life after they came to faith, then they were not sinless,
but were in sin, which they needed to confess in order for them to be cleansed.

Your problem is simple. . .and serious.

You are missing the basic gospel message--the forgiveness of past sin in justification through faith in Jesus Christ.

Our advocate doesn't plead forgiveness of sin already forgiven in justification.

You are trying to manufacture some kind of contra-Biblical perceived unforgiven sin for which believers need an advocate with the Father.

 

[ChristInUs]

The cross take care of sin, past, present and future. We all sin, in fact the closer we get to God the more sinful we find ourselves. Perfection will only come during the Kingdom age.