First of I I really do not think this is a parable but even if it is it still represents fundamental truths as do actual parables.
are the wicked resurrected?
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First of I I really do not think this is a parable but even if it is it still represents fundamental truths as do actual parables.
what makes you think it is a parable? Jesus did not use the same language as He did in other parables and gave an actual name of the person involved (Lazarus).
Usually Jesus, when teaching parables would say, "a woman" "a man" "a sower" etc.
I agree....there are at least four things off the top of my head that proves it is not a parable...
1. The bible doesn't say...And he spoke a parable unto them like in other places
2. There are actual names mentioned<--Abraham and Lazarus
3. He speaks of actual locations
4. It is absurd to think he would use things, places and people who do not exist to teach eternal truths about the word or God, hell, the punishment of the lost and blessedness of the saved.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
Psa 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psa 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Psa 146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
No, actually there is not consciousness after death.
Remember the purpose of parables...
Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Parables are not quaint stories to better illustrate teachings to simple farm folk, the purpose of parables is to cloak the meaning from the masses...
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Luke 16 contains a PARABLE about Lazarus and the Rich Man. We are assured by those who wish to teach a doctrine of an ever burning hell that this is not really a parable but doctrine. Let's look at it as if it were doctrine...
Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
OK, first thing we notice is that they can see each other.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
They can speak hear each other and speak to each other.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
There is a barrier between them that prevents rendering any aid to those poor wretches suffering in this fire. By the way, if the Rich Man were truly sizzling and popping and suffering excruciating pain, why did he only request a drop of water on the tongue? If he were truly suffering like we are assured those in hell suffer, he would have asked for Lake Michigan to be poured on him. But that is another point slightly outside of this discussion.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
OK, let's put together what we have observed assuming this is doctrine....
1) Saved mothers in heaven can see their lost children burning and sizzling and pooping and writhing in pain.
2) They can hear the shrieks and screams of torment form their children and because they are condemned to an eternity in hell, they will see and hear this FOREVER!
3) They cannot render any aid but only stand helplessly by and watch.
This, we are assured in the reward of the saved in heaven.
Truthfully, I can see no difference between the two. The truth is, that the reward of the incorrigibly wicked is that they are burned up to ashes and even their memory dies.
There is a passage that shows that it is a parable...
Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Anyone time Christ was speaking openly to those who were not His direct disciples, He spoke in parables. Either that or this verse is wrong and if it is wrong, then the scripture can be broken...
Joh 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Both are historical figures who had been dead for 2000 years. You do know that Lazarus is really Eliezer...
G2976
Λάζαρος
Lazaros
lad'-zar-os
Probably of Hebrew origin [H499]; Lazarus (that is, Elazar), the name of two Israelites (one imaginary): - Lazarus.
Total KJV occurrences: 15
Bullinger:
Lazarus. A common Talmudic contraction of the Hebrew Eleazar; but introduced by the Lord to point to His own closing comment in Luk_16:31.
Gen 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
Gen 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
Eliezer, a gentile.
What actual locations? There is only one verse that speaks of an actual location...
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Abraham is still dead...
Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Nope, just like Job, Abraham is waiting...
Job 14:14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
Job 14:15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.
What is absurd is to think that God would contradict the many passages in the Bible concerning the state of the dead and the timing of the resurrection with one parable that is designed to hide the truth from the multitudes.
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The Matthew reference is referencing what he taught in that particular discourse to the people and does not contradict Luke 16
Your (Proof) of who Lazarus is, is moot and not proven by the text...not to mention that Bullinger taught that the spirit of God does not indwell the believer which has led to Newlightism
a. In the story Jesus uses LAZARUS received EVIL things in his life....show that from the accounts of ELEAZAR in the bible
b. John speaks of LAZARUS who was sick and died...just as is listed in LUKE
He mentions two physical locations (HELL) which you reject and Abrahams bosom (paradise) the place where the saved were held until the ascension of JESUS
Chapter 16:1 states clearly he was teaching his DISCIPLES and was over heard by the Pharisees...so your point about parables is also moot and his language from verse 15 thru the rest of the chapter is clear, precise and without a PARABLE
My last statement stands as do the 4 points that I made.....So...I will stand on the truth of Luke 16 and the underlying point of the story......THE SUFFICIENCY of the WORD of GOD to bring salvation to a lost man who will hear what it has to say......
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That is because 'most folks' (whoever they are) understand that the bible teaches that there is an intermediary state between death and the resurrection - it seems to me that the bible speaks of the intermediary state in terms of Hades and the final state in terms of Gehenna, just as it speaks of heaven being the place believers go in death and the new heavens and the new earth being the place we will inhabit after the resurrection.
Ah, you mean purgatory? No, there is no intermediate state. When one dies, he is asleep until the resurrection.
19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them:
as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath;
so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward,
and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
"And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth,
and such as are in the sea,and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory,
and power,be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
and such as are in the sea,and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory,
and power,be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever."
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption
into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
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Let's examine these 'proofs' shall we!
This is an argument from silence and therefore not a good argument! It is also based upon the assumption that the bible needs to specifically state 'this is a parable' every time a parable is employed in the text. Look, for example, at Matt 25:1 "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom." The text doesn't tell us this is a parable either it just gives us the clues we need to deduce that it is a parable ourselves.
How does that stop it being a parable? Why can't parables employ people's names?
How does that stop it being a parable? Why can't parables employ locations?
Again that is just your assumption - but it is one that is easily disproved from the Word of God just look at all the other parables - go back to matt 25 are these real or situations or made up ones?
The truth is pre-trib pre-mil rapture believers have a vested interested in this not being a parable because so much of their theology is vested in this being a literal teaching but your 'proofs' do not establish that this is not a parable I am afraid.