A woman as a Pastor? Does it make it right if there is a need for pastors?

[VioletReigns]

When he responded he was quoting kaylagirl. And even in his response he says kaylagirl. I'm guessing there's a good chance that's who he's referring to.

Brother Ugly, you gotta follow these fiery rants more closely! fredjames was referring to kaylagirl's comment to JackH who was referred to as a Christian sister by fredjames who... what... wait...

oh my goodness... now I lost track!

 

[psychomom]

well, i never wanted to be a pastor.

but i surely do hope we ladies may yet care for the children at church,
because if i'm not in the service, that's my favorite part.

 

[psychomom]

also---i am quite sleepy, but-- *rubs eyes

...did tribesman use an emoticon a few pages back??

ah, thanks for that, t-man. it caught me so off guard, i literally LOLed. (and it was like medicine. )

 

[notuptome]

I found this interesting article:

Jesus’ encounter with the woman at the well is, in my opinion, one of the most remarkable, socially unacceptable, counter-cultural instances told in scripture. As if being a woman during this period was not bad enough, to be a Samaritan woman was a double curse. Jews did not associate with Samaritans and would never share a drinking vessel with them, lest they, too, become unclean. Samaritans were considered “half-breeds” and were avoided at all costs.

Jesus meets the Samaritan woman at Jacob’s well and asks her to give him a drink. She is stunned, informing him that she is a Samaritan woman and He is a Jew, so how could He ask her for a drink. Jesus then teaches her the lesson of living water, tells her about her five husbands, and finally reveals to her that a time is coming when people will be able to worship God in spirit and truth, only through the power of God’s spirit. (That’s quite a heavy conversation, one He had not even shared with the 12).

When she proclaims that she knows there is a day when a Messiah will come, Jesus says, “I am He.”

Again, this is more information than even the disciples are aware of at this point. She runs back to town and tells many of the men (plural, so probably men and women) about Jesus, confessing that He knew everything about her.

“From that city many of the Samaritans believed in Him because of the word of the woman who testified, “He told me all the things that I have done” (John 4:39).

It’s interesting that the conversation with the woman at the well is the longest recorded discussion Jesus had with anyone—and she, a Gentile woman. Further, the lesson Jesus gave her about living water was just as profound as the lesson he gave Nicodemus—and the woman had a better response. Unlike Nicodemus, she was willing to be associated with Jesus. She told her neighbors about Jesus, and many of them believed in Jesus ‘because of the woman’s testimony.’

The most fascinating part of this story is that while she ran back to town to tell others to come see the one who could be the long-awaited Messiah, Jesus is praising her work through a parable to his returning dumbfounded-disciples, who are marveling at the fact that Jesus would be talking to a Samaritan woman, apparently alone! Scandalous. This is surely not only a social violation, but a theological violation. Yet, the disciples were too chicken to ask aloud: “Why would He be talking to this woman….??”

So, Jesus schools them about the unlikely partnerships and co-working in The Great Upside Down Kingdom of God….
“Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest. Already he [original translation: “one”] who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together.” So in this case the saying is true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ “I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor.”

Jesus, The Ultimate Seed Sower, plants His Word into the woman’s heart, who in turn plants His Word in the hearts of others. This must have been a trying and puzzling lesson for the disciples, who previously wouldn’t even have made eye contact with a Samaritan, let alone work alongside them, partnering up in the cause of God, to invite “half-breeds” to become followers of Jesus.

Isn’t the story of the woman at the well a reflection of what evangelism is really about? Churches that forbid or discourage women from preaching the gospel in the presence of men miss the entire point and essence of true evangelism. Preaching the Good News of Jesus should not be a means to gain or exercise authority/control over people. To portray it as such (since that IS the reason sited to bar women from becoming public evangelists), perverts the spirit in which evangelism should be acted out. Evangelism is about pointing people to JESUS. It’s about teaching people what the gospel is, what Jesus said and did, and to invite others to begin their own faith journey. How sectors of the church can restrict women from preaching the good news of the gospel in the presence of men is just tragic to me. The Samaritan woman’s sense of urgency, as she runs back to town to tell anyone who will listen about the Messiah, says it all. Where’s that urgency today? Are we too busy squabbling over which gender can say and do what in the presence of which people and in which forums? Titles and positions of preacher, teacher, pastor, evangelist and so forth, should not be viewed as ways to get authority, but as an avenue to live out the authority and calling of the gospel for those gifted and equipped in each area.

Why do we split such flimsy hairs when it comes to women in ministry: woman can preach the gospel, but they cannot BE a preacher. Women can DO evangelism. but cannot BE an evangelist. Women can SHARE the gospel, but cannot TEACH the gospel.

Don’t we want to reach as many people as we can? Why do we make teaching the Gospel a matter of “authority over others” and “proper gender roles”? (Again, I am speaking to the more rigid branches of complementarianism).

The woman at the well did not hold an “official” position (so don’t misunderstand my intent), but as one of the first people EVER for Jesus to choose to reveal Himself as the Messiah and as the first person to spread the news of Jesus beyond the Jewish people, she sets an important example of the true heart of ministry.


My testimony:
I also want to add that a poor young blind woman living in my neighborhood back in the late 1970's would walk the city streets like John the Baptist praising God and preaching the Redemption of Jesus Christ. Some thought she was crazy. Others thought her a harmless religious nut. But it was her abundant joy and effective preaching that the Lord used to bring me running to Him.

I do not support women as pastors of a local church. I do not see from what you have posted a woman acting in that capacity. When I see the topic women pastors I'm seeing women running a local church. What you have presented is women being a witness for Christ as we all should be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[WebersHome]

well, i never wanted to be a pastor. but i surely do hope we ladies may yet
care for the children at church, because if i'm not in the service, that's my
favorite part.

Paul doesn't permit women to be in positions that govern men at church; but
there are other positions where they can govern; for example: They can
govern nurseries. They can govern women's Bible classes. They can govern
woman's prayer meetings. They can govern women's missionary
committees. They can govern children's Sunday school classes. They can
govern the care and maintenance of the Lord's Supper. Women can govern
just about anything in church just so long as it doesn't involve governing
men.

But men need to understand something. If a man should enter a woman's
turf at church-- for example helping out in a children's Sunday school class
supervised by a woman --he will be surrendering his right of primogeniture
and giving her the right to tell him what to do because in her classroom;
she's the one with the right to rule; not him. He's just a guest. And if he
doesn't like that arrangement, then he ought to be politely, and firmly,
asked to leave.

==========================================

 

[JackH]

That's the very same mental condition of females preaching to and/or
teaching Christ's men. They have been deceived into sincerely believing that
they are doing nothing wrong. Well; the result is the very same result as
before: Christ's men who permit themselves to be preached to and/or taught
by females, end up disobeying Christ just as Adam disobeyed God because
Paul's rules are Christ's rules.

You are saying that a woman who preaches/teaches men is disobeying Christ?

Is that sinful behavior that must be repented and turned away from?

And men who permit themselves to be preached/taught to by women are disobeying Christ and engaging in sinful behavior that must be repented and turned away from?

What about men like some on this thread who fully support female pastors/preachers? Are they likewise engaging in sinful behavior that must be repented and turned away from?

 

[JackH]

he will be surrendering his right of primogeniture
and giving her the right to tell him what to do because in her classroom;
she's the one with the right to rule; not him.

I never heard Billy Graham talk about his right of primogeniture.

It would appear that you are obsessed by that word, like Tribesman is obsessed with the word ordained.

 

[WebersHome]

I never heard Billy Graham talk about his right of primogeniture.
It would appear that you are obsessed by that word, like Tribesman is
obsessed with the word ordained.

The principle of primogeniture is the bedrock of the limitations on female
roles in church.

†. 1Cor 11:7-9 . . For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch
as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was
the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

†. 1Tim 2:11-13 . . Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I
suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be
in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Equality activists try their futile best to circumvent the principle of
primogeniture by quoting the passage below.

†. Gal 3:28 . .There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free,
there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

But the apostle of Jesus Christ who penned Gal 3:28 is the very same
apostle of Jesus Christ who penned the first two passages I quoted. In
essence; equality activists seem to sincerely believe it's possible to
circumvent Paul by quoting Paul.

The ultimate primogeniture is Christ's.

†. Col 1:15 . .Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every
creature

Christians resisting male primogeniture are actually resisting Christ's
primogeniture.

†. 1Cor 11:3 . . But I would have you know, that the head of every man is
Christ; and the head of the woman is the man

Equality activists circumventing Paul; are also circumventing Christ because
Paul spoke for Christ.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Equality activists are unspiritual and unworthy of Christ's attention.

†. 1 Cor 14:37-38 . . If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted,
let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If
he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

Equality activists not only don't please God; but they cannot please God.

†. Rom 8:5-8 . .Those who live according to the sinful nature have their
minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with
the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful
man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the
sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do
so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

The really pathetic equality activists are the ones who cite women from the
Old Testament like Deborah to make their case. But Deborah was not a
Christian. Had she been a Christian; she would have been subject to Christ's
edicts just like the rest of us.

†. Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the
prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has
spoken to us by His son.

†. Matt 17:5 . .Behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a
voice out of the cloud, saying: This is My beloved son, with whom I am well
pleased: Listen to him!

†. John 3:36 . . He who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the
wrath of God abides on him.

==============================================

 

[yogosans14]

Women can be preachers imho. I love Joyce Meyer

 

[VioletReigns]

I do not support women as pastors of a local church. I do not see from what you have posted a woman acting in that capacity. When I see the topic women pastors I'm seeing women running a local church. What you have presented is women being a witness for Christ as we all should be.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

And Roger, what do you make of the young blind woman who preached Jesus Christ in the streets and whom the Lord used to open my eyes years ago? Let me add this, I had gone from church to church, from Sunday morning services to revival meeting Sunday nights, asking PASTORS who Jesus was. I went to numerous denominations inquiring WHO IS JESUS and not one preacher could tell me. Oh, they talked about Jesus, they quoted scriptures, they gave me inspirational booklets to take home and read and yammered on & on about sin & repenting & told me to read my Bible.

Even in my spiritual darkness, I knew they did not know Jesus personally or intimately. My heart almost exploded inside of me with the yearning to KNOW Jesus and these spiritually-numb pastors could only offer religious lectures. It was as if I was dying of starvation! I was desperate to find Jesus!

The first time I encountered young Mary, the blind Christian woman, I immediately noticed she was very poor and plain to look at. In fact, she was not somebody most people would want to be seen with in public. Including me. Even her little doggie companion was an ugly mutt. And yet she talked as if Jesus was right there in her midst and was so filled with His joy and love that God's Word poured out of her mouth like gold. It didn't take long before I was humbled on my knees and surrendering to the Lord completely.

I have often wondered how many other people are out there in the world desperately searching for Jesus Christ and only hearing religious lectures and hard preaching that is not Holy Spirit-inspired.

Oh Father God, may Your people's hearts be open and their minds surrendered to Jesus Christ that the world can know YOU!!!!

 

[WebersHome]

-

Women can be preachers imho.

Your imho runs contrary to Paul the apostle's rules; which, according to 1Cor
14:37 and 1Ths 4:1-2 are actually Christ's rules.

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman
to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam
was first formed, then Eve." (1Tim 2:11-13)

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto
them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also
saith the law. And if they will learn anything, let them ask their husbands at
home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (1Cor 14:34-35)

There are basically two roads in life that somebody can take. There's the
broad road and there's the narrow road. The majority take the broad road.

"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road
that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate
and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matt 7:13
14)

The white line on the broad road looks like this:

IMHO-IMHO-IMHO-IMHO-IMHO-IMHO-IMHO

The white line on the narrow road looks like this:

†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†-†

IMHO = the world's rules

†= Christ's rules

=================================

 

[tribesman]

I think it's important to consider that how Christians have read the bible has changed over time... I think the nt teaches that slaves should obey their masters... but very few of us, if we were captured by slavers operating here in the usa, would live in submission to our masters... most would try to escape, imo...

What have changed over time are most societies of this earth and how they are organized today. However that should never have us to accept relative ethics or to make the Bible say what men of our day anachronistically want it to say. Those are deadly poisions.

 

[MarcR]

Also I know a denom or fellowship that picks men out of the churches and disciples them at church and sends them out as pastor church planters. They dont take women and theyre never short of plenty of men. The real problem? Political correctness. Bible schools are taking lots of women leaving less men. But really its political over biblical.

While I agree that Political Correctness is a major contributor to the problem; I personally know of rural churches that have gone two or three years without an applicant of either gender and most of them would close rather than call a woman pastor.
The issue is not whether women have the leadership skills or the doctrinal correctness to pastor. The issue is that God wants male leadership. People make mistakes; and are accountable for those mistakes. Because Eve was deceived, God wants His men to take positions in which there is a large measure of accountability.

 

[tribesman]

-
A few years ago a co-worker invited me to a home Bible study that he and
his wife were attending at the time. I asked him if the study was being led
by a competent Bible teacher. He said they had no teacher. They all taught
each other as the Holy Spirit led.

Well; I promptly declined his invitation because a Bible study without one of
Christ's teachers as per Eph 4:11-14 is not a Bible study; it's a bull session.

This thread for example, never gets to the bottom of anything because it's
a bull session consisting of unbelievers, worldly believers, and spiritual
believers. So it's no surprise this thread a crucible of strife and confusion.

=====================================

This is a typical result of all this misuse of scriptures pertaining to the governing order of the church that Paul stressed that we are to respect and submit to. It leads to chaos and rebellion.

 

[tribesman]

The principle of primogeniture is the bedrock of the limitations on female
roles in church.

†. 1Cor 11:7-9 . . For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch
as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was
the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

†. 1Tim 2:11-13 . . Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I
suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be
in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

Equality activists try their futile best to circumvent the principle of
primogeniture by quoting the passage below.

†. Gal 3:28 . .There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free,
there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

But the apostle of Jesus Christ who penned Gal 3:28 is the very same
apostle of Jesus Christ who penned the first two passages I quoted. In
essence; equality activists seem to sincerely believe it's possible to
circumvent Paul by quoting Paul.

The ultimate primogeniture is Christ's.

†. Col 1:15 . .Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every
creature

Christians resisting male primogeniture are actually resisting Christ's
primogeniture.

†. 1Cor 11:3 . . But I would have you know, that the head of every man is
Christ; and the head of the woman is the man

Equality activists circumventing Paul; are also circumventing Christ because
Paul spoke for Christ.

†. 1Ths 4:1-2 . .We beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord
Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please
God, so ye would abound more and more. For ye know what commandments
we gave you by the Lord Jesus.

Equality activists are unspiritual and unworthy of Christ's attention.

†. 1 Cor 14:37-38 . . If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted,
let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If
he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

Equality activists not only don't please God; but they cannot please God.

†. Rom 8:5-8 . .Those who live according to the sinful nature have their
minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with
the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. The mind of sinful
man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the
sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do
so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

The really pathetic equality activists are the ones who cite women from the
Old Testament like Deborah to make their case. But Deborah was not a
Christian. Had she been a Christian; she would have been subject to Christ's
edicts just like the rest of us.

†. Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the
prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has
spoken to us by His son.

†. Matt 17:5 . .Behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and behold, a
voice out of the cloud, saying: This is My beloved son, with whom I am well
pleased: Listen to him!

†. John 3:36 . . He who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the
wrath of God abides on him.

==============================================

Agree with most here save for the passage in bold. Deborah was most certainly a righteous woman of God, serving Him as she was led by Him. She was among the Saints of Old who looked unto the coming of the Lord, believing the gospel, being justified by grace through faith.

 

[MarcR]

If a woman can preach better than a man then I don't wanna hear from some balding guy who's knowledge went out with his hair.

The doctrine that women should not be pastors is NOT based on ability! When Jesus said " without Me you can do nothing"
Jn 15:5
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
KJV He was saying that what people do in their own strength and ability is nothing in His estimation.

The issue is accountability not ability.

 

[MarcR]

There are some outstanding christian women on this site who's hearts are as close as close can be to God. And as knowledgeable of God's Word as any man here is (including yours truly) ... and often times more so. I follow and read at least 6 or 7 of them to my own benefit and delight. I scarcely think that God would frown upon me or on anybody for learning from them as often is the case.

When Paul says that 1 Ti 2:12
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
KJV
this does not preclude a man from listening and learning as women teach women.

 

[MarcR]

All it takes is a study back in the original Greek, and to look into early church history records and one would see the usage and the deceptions done in the church to try and cover up women as apostles, preachers, leaders, deacons, and so on in the church. Even Apostle Paul acknowledges some of them as I mentioned in the previous post.

Paul indeed acknowledges women in leadership roles in the Church; but I have not found any instance of his citing a woman in the role of pastor. As for the historical record; the fact that something happened does not necessarily indicate that God was pleased with it.

 

[MarcR]

Who was the first to see Jesus resurrected? Mary Should she have not told anyone? Seems like she was the first to spread the gospel. Was it okay because she only mentioned it and didn't preach it? Was she witnessing but not teaching it?

What is the cutoff? How many people? The sex of the listeners? Should Mary not have said anything? What if she didn't have a husband to tell? Should she have told a married friend so the friend could tell the men?

I'm not being snarky just wondering.......did she do wrongly?

No! she did as she should have done. As I understand it, preaching is speaking Gods word to instruct or exhort the believers assembled together for worship and for spiritual guidance and direction. Anything a woman shares or inquires outside the assembly is permitted.

 

[fredjames]

Ya know fredjames, I'm interested to know how much time on average you spend on your knees in humility before the Lord before you post your fiery messages of rebuke to this forum. If I had never been humbled by the Holy Spirit and it wasn't made known to me by the Lord how far mankind's thoughts are to the mind of Jesus Christ, I would be alarmed at your total lack of graciousness. But I know that God is able, in a blink of an eye, to change a man into His image. And what a gift of grace and mercy that is, to have a change of heart when the Holy Spirit falls onto you and consumes you. I hope you find that out soon, for Christ's sake. ♥

Sorry i do not welcome your weak testimony/word that cross mix doctrine using the 'taken up' doctrine of Apostle Paul to the Thessalonians with the change of CHRIST like men according to the Gospel.

i believe that from your testimony/word Scripture quotation, you do not believe the 'practice/do' of any 'Law' of the Holy Bible, because they bring curse and then grace will be of no use through faith. You posses a Spirit that does all that for you in your imperfection, as you day to day pray to GOD and wait.

And when comes the day before you will be 'taken up', 'quicker than a blink of an eye', you will be transform to CHRIST like person and be at home at last.

Am i closely correct?

CHRIST can change me in a blink of an eye?

Please give me the written Holy Scripture to justify you are for me and not against me, for i desperately need them?

Thank you, and may GOD the FATHER of our LORD JESUS CHRIST bless you to reply to me sooner.