Working out our Salvation

[kennethcadwell]

Rom 10:17, The carnal man can not discern anything that is of a spiritual nature, 1 Cor 2:14. My sheep hear my voice, you do not hear, because you are not of my sheep. To keep verse 17 in context we have to go back to see who Paul is speaking to which are those that Paul bear record that they have a zeal (devotion) of God. The carnal man is not devoted to God, 1 Cor 2:14. Acts 2:38, these men, when they heard (already of his sheep or they could not have heard) The carnal man can not understand spiritual things until they have been born of the Spirit. These men were "Pricked" in their heart. Their heart could not have been pricked unless they already had the stony heart taken out and now have a fleshy heart, Eze 11:19. Rom 3:25, The faith in this verse is Christ's faith, not man's. 2 Pet 1:9, The sins that are committed by those that Jesus died for separates them their fellowship with God, but not their eternal life. If you think these people are lost eternally, then you, yourself, have forgotten that you were purged from your sins, because all those he purged he will not lose any of them, but raise them up at the last day. 1 John 1:9, Just as I have told you before, in the explanation of 2 Pet 1:9. 1 John 2:2, same "world" (pertaining to believers only) as in John 3:16. Luke 13:3 perish from your fellowship with God until you repent, not from eternal life. Matt 7:21, The church that Jesus set up is called by several names in the scriptures, such as, the church of Christ, the few, the remnant, the new Jerusalem, the church of God, the kingdom of God, the church of the first born, the kingdom of heaven, etc. Matt 7:13-14, If you think that it is talking about eternal life, then you are limiting those that go to heaven are but a few. I know that you have that belief of only a few, because I was once a member, myself, of the coc. Gen 32:12, The promise is through Abraham, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude. Acts 4:12, I don't know why you used this verse, Jesus absolutely saved eternally those that his Father gave to him.

This is a major bad twist taught within the church to separate fellowship from salvation, as it was done by those who want to continue to walk in the flesh (sins) and walk in the Spirit also. Nowhere in the bible does it say a person can do both and have eternal life, as it states all over that a born again believer with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will learn to abstain from sins and not let them control you. However if a person does not heed to these warnings and continue in willful sins they will not get salvation.


[h=1]Hebrews 10:26-31[/h]26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Do not let anybody fool you in deception that this passage does not refer to eternal life. As born again believers will stand before the Christ at the mercy seat and judged on obedience to Him, and given rewards for such. Those who are disobedient and continue in willful sins will stand before God at the second judgment where those are cast into the lake of fire.

 

[forsha]

This is a major bad twist taught within the church to separate fellowship from salvation, as it was done by those who want to continue to walk in the flesh (sins) and walk in the Spirit also. Nowhere in the bible does it say a person can do both and have eternal life, as it states all over that a born again believer with the guidance of the Holy Spirit will learn to abstain from sins and not let them control you. However if a person does not heed to these warnings and continue in willful sins they will not get salvation.


Hebrews 10:26-31

26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Do not let anybody fool you in deception that this passage does not refer to eternal life. As born again believers will stand before the Christ at the mercy seat and judged on obedience to Him, and given rewards for such. Those who are disobedient and continue in willful sins will stand before God at the second judgment where those are cast into the lake of fire.

I answered the scriptures that you quoted verse by verse. It would have been nice, for the sake of discussion, for you to have done the same, unless you have no explanation for them. Is not that the purpose of the website?

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 10:26-31

26For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21. Not the righteous, who are born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9. Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

Do not let anybody fool you in deception that this passage does not refer to eternal life. As born again believers will stand before the Christ at the mercy seat and judged on obedience to Him, and given rewards for such. Those who are disobedient and continue in willful sins will stand before God at the second judgment where those are cast into the lake of fire.

Disobedient/continues in willful sins/practice sin/born of God is an oxymoron - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9.

 

[forsha]

[/FONT][/COLOR] To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21. Not the righteous, who are born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9. Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

Disobedient/continues in willful sins/practice sin/born of God is an oxymoron - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9.

1 John 3:9, When Christ died on the cross and erased our sins, God said, after our sins have been paid for, that he looks upon those that Christ died for, as having no sin, and our sins are as far from as the east is from the west. God sees us as having no sin ,as far as eternal life is concerned, but those that have eternal life, do, still commit sins and God will punish us until we repent, but we don't lose our eternal life. If you think because you are born of God that you do not sin anymore, you will never have the scriptures harmonize for you. All these things listed in Gal 6:20-21, will bare you from the church, which is the kingdom of God, but will not keep you from heaven, remember, Christ died for ALL of the sins of those that God gave him. Those that do these sins will separate themselves from their relationship with God until they repent, but not separate them from their eternal life. John 6:39 says that he will not lose even one of them.

 

[BradC]

[/FONT][/COLOR] To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21. Not the righteous, who are born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9. Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

Disobedient/continues in willful sins/practice sin/born of God is an oxymoron - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9.

I would like to add to this good post and say that habitual sin by anyone without conviction is the condition of a lost person. Without conviction means that the heart has not been converted from the unrighteousness of sin to the righteousness of Christ. To have been drawn to the gospel by the Holy Spirit and to turn from that drawing, the person will continue in sin without conviction and live in unbelief. To bring them back to that place of conviction (or repentance) will be difficult because they have been there, tasted it and have the knowledge of it without the transformation. In (Acts 26:28) King Agrippa said that Paul almost persuaded him to be a Christian. The king was under conviction through the words of Paul but turned away and never believed. I wonder how many men and women have almost been persuaded to believe the gospel but turn back and how difficult it would be to renew them back to that place of repentance.

 

[tribesman]

1 John 3:9, When Christ died on the cross and erased our sins, God said, after our sins have been paid for, that he looks upon those that Christ died for, as having no sin, and our sins are as far from as the east is from the west. God sees us as having no sin ,as far as eternal life is concerned, but those that have eternal life, do, still commit sins and God will punish us until we repent, but we don't lose our eternal life. If you think because you are born of God that you do not sin anymore, you will never have the scriptures harmonize for you. All these things listed in Gal 6:20-21, will bare you from the church, which is the kingdom of God, but will not keep you from heaven, remember, Christ died for ALL of the sins of those that God gave him. Those that do these sins will separate themselves from their relationship with God until they repent, but not separate them from their eternal life. John 6:39 says that he will not lose even one of them.

I am with you in almost everything here except that the justification of believers is a reality first when the elect believes. Which occurs after regeneration, which is therefore no condition but a fruit of same.

 

[mailmandan]

If you think because you are born of God that you do not sin anymore, you will never have the scriptures harmonize for you.

I certainly don't claim to be sinless (1 John 1:8-2:1).

 

[longtrekker]

I would like to add to this good post and say that habitual sin by anyone without conviction is the condition of a lost person. Without conviction means that the heart has not been converted from the unrighteousness of sin to the righteousness of Christ. To have been drawn to the gospel by the Holy Spirit and to turn from that drawing, the person will continue in sin without conviction and live in unbelief. To bring them back to that place of conviction (or repentance) will be difficult because they have been there, tasted it and have the knowledge of it without the transformation. In (Acts 26:28) King Agrippa said that Paul almost persuaded him to be a Christian. The king was under conviction through the words of Paul but turned away and never believed. I wonder how many men and women have almost been persuaded to believe the gospel but turn back and how difficult it would be to renew them back to that place of repentance.

I forget the verse regarding those who turn back after hearing - but it's in the order that they become worse off than before they heard the word....

 

[kennethcadwell]

[/FONT][/COLOR] To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and accidently fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin - 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21. Not the righteous, who are born of God - 1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9. Hebrews 10:39 - But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. Those who draw back to perdition do not believe to the saving of the soul and those who believe to the saving of the soul do not draw back to perdition.

Disobedient/continues in willful sins/practice sin/born of God is an oxymoron - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Galatians 5:19-21; 1 John 3:9.

It is a continuous action, but it does not mean the person can not walk properly at one point and then turn back to doing that again. Because the Galatians did walk properly at first in grace, as Paul makes it clear in his opening of the letter. Saying that he was surprised that they are already turning back away from the gospel that was delivered to them to go back to justification of the law. Then he tells them Christ now has become of no effect to them for doing this, and they have fallen from His grace.

 

[BradC]

I forget the verse regarding those who turn back after hearing - but it's in the order that they become worse off than before they heard the word....

2 Pt 2:19-22

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Many use this passage to show how believers can turn and go back and get entangled with the polutions of the world, they are overcome and lose their salvation. They qualify that assessment through (v.21,22). They understand these verses from the viewpoint of a saved blood washed individual who goes back in the mire and loses or forfeits eternal salvation. The first part of (v.21) is used to prove that they were saved and knew it but turned from it in the last part of the verse. I will say this... knowing the way of righteousness through the cross of Christ and turning from it is not the same as having the righteousness of God imputed by faith through the Son. These were those who promised liberty but became servants of corruption because they did not go in the right way of righteousness through the Son. The knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ gave them freedom from the moral and corrupt pollutions of the world for a time but they became entangled again because they did not have the Spirit and the latter end of them was worse then in the beginning. We can find an illustration of this when Jesus spoke to the Pharisees in (Mt 12:43-45)...

43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

 

[forsha]

I am with you in almost everything here except that the justification of believers is a reality first when the elect believes. Which occurs after regeneration, which is therefore no condition but a fruit of same.

Eternal salvation and also justification came through the obedience of Jesus going to the cross for all of those that God gave him, John 6:39. Gal 2:16, Knowing that a MAN IS NOT JUSTIFIED by the works, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, not faith IN Christ, but faith OF Christ.

 

[forsha]

I certainly don't claim to be sinless (1 John 1:8-2:1).

I am sorry, I did not mean to apply that to you personally.

 

[84Niner]

Just to echo what others have said, we possess our salvation. It is a free gift and a wonderful gift. It is not meant to just remain inside of us as our little treasure. The gift of salvation is actually another Life that we have come into a very profound relationship with. That Life has a desire and purpose within. That Life wants to grow and be expressed and ultimately manifested in us. That means it needs to be worked out. Simply put, to work our our salvation means to allow that Life to grow, live out and be expressed in our daily living. To work it out in "fear and trembling" doesn't mean we live a life in fear. The only thing we need be fearful of is if we are living a very carnal living thinking that we are living the christian life. When we function in the realm of the church we should ask ourselves "is this Christ living and operating, or is this just my "self" operating?" God has no use for our "works". The only thing of value to God is that in us which has Christ as its source and content. This requires much prayer on our part to ensure that it is Christ being expressed in us and not just our "good and proper self". This is to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

 

[mailmandan]

It is a continuous action, but it does not mean the person can not walk properly at one point and then turn back to doing that again. Because the Galatians did walk properly at first in grace, as Paul makes it clear in his opening of the letter. Saying that he was surprised that they are already turning back away from the gospel that was delivered to them to go back to justification of the law. Then he tells them Christ now has become of no effect to them for doing this, and they have fallen from His grace.

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. "You who would be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. They were obviously getting side-tracked by legalistic teachers, but I don't see the words "lost salvation" there. If they lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why did Paul say in verse 10 - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is? Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

[tribesman]

Eternal salvation and also justification came through the obedience of Jesus going to the cross for all of those that God gave him, John 6:39. Gal 2:16, Knowing that a MAN IS NOT JUSTIFIED by the works, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, not faith IN Christ, but faith OF Christ.

You always use this same one verse. Whatever way you want to put it, the elect must yet first possess faith in order to possess justification, since they go hand in hand. Romans 5:1-11 says:

Rom.5

[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
[2] By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
[3] And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
[4] And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
[5] And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
[6] For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
[7] For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
[8] But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
[9] Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
[10] For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
[11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

So where there is no faith, there is no justification. And if an elect person has not yet been regenerated, he is not yet justified, because he does not yet have faith. Faith and justification always go together. You never see one without the other.

 

[tribesman]

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. "You who would be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. They were obviously getting side-tracked by legalistic teachers, but I don't see the words "lost salvation" there. If they lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why did Paul say in verse 10 - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is? Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them? In verse 12, Paul uses hyperbole, As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

Kenneth believes that one can go in and out of salvation. That explains why he have it the way he have it with interpreting Paul's message to the galatians who got sidetracked.

 

[Yeraza_Bats]

The bible does tell you not to be caught in shame, and Christ had a few parables for this, I think? The bible talks about falling away from God, and going back to sinful living, so yeah I believe that you can lose your salvation.

The enemy comes for us all, and even the elect if they can.

 

[michael56]

Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
[SUP]12 [/SUP]if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
[SUP]13 [/SUP]if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself

2Timothy2:11-13

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First the Lord Jesus ministry was about preparing for the kingdom of heaven and salvation there, as He said more than once do not worry, care for, or want the things of this world. So to say every time He is speaking of salvation it is not always about eternal life/spiritual salvation is false. If what you two say is the case then you are saying the Lord failed at His promise of Matthew 10:22 to His Apostles/disciples of saving them through issues they would face in spreading His word; They all were killed but one, John who was exiled.
Second I do place my trust in the Lord which is why I will defend His word, which is why I will not let others take away from it. I have gained patience thanks be to God through His Holy Spirit in dealing with people who want to twist, do away with, and believe they can live carnally and still end up with salvation.
Nowhere in the bible does it say mere faith alone saves, unless you misuse Ephesians 2:8. For that scripture shows we do not earn salvation by works, but it still does not discount them as being part of a believers life.

A person is not automatically forgiven before they believe, repent of their sins, and get baptized. If you believe that then you have all people saved and going to heaven. No a person will never be good enough, but that does not mean because of that to deny scripture on what it tells you to do and continue to sin anyway.



Hebrews 6:10
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

Not true,

and you still ignore the omniscience of God. He said "it is finished" when he was on the cross. He did not say, I did my part. now you do yours.

the kingdom of heaven is a life on this earth God wants you to have, saved from the world and the things of it, It does not mean you will recieve all of those blessings, they are conditional (as are all kids who live in their fathers house)

eternal salvation, however, is secure, because it is not in christ, or how good we perform (we could never be good enough to begin with" but on the words, it is finished.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

If God, by his foreknowledge, looked down on the children of men to see the ones that would believe in him, then that would be eternal salvation by good works, and not by God's grace.

Do what? it is salvation by works only if someone earned it, belief is not a work. jesus said it is the work of God we believe in him.

where do you get this stuff??

Ps 14:2 says that the LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy, there is none that doeth good, no, not one. If God had not put his Holy Spirit within those that he chose we would all go to hell.

God can not put the spirit in someone UNTIL they have been cleansed.

God can not enter a filthy body, It must be redeemed first, Jesus paid the penalty and gave us an opportunity to trust HIS WORK. We do not earn salvation by trusting Gods work. God gets all the credit.