God is not Mysterious

Hizikyah · Feb 15, 2015

Ezekiyl 18:20-28, "The soul that sins, it will die. The son will not bear the iniquity of the father, nor will the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is Lawful and right, then he will surely live; he will not die. And his transgressions that he has committed will not be mentioned against him; in his righteousness that he has done, he will live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says Father Yahweh: No, but rather that he would turn back from his wicked ways, and live. But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does--should he live? All his righteousness that he has done will not be mentioned in his behalf. In his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them he will die. Yet you say; The way of Yahweh is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israyl: Is not My way equal? Are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity and dies, it is because of the iniquity he has done, that he will die. Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is Lawful and right, he will save himself, and live. Because he considered, and turned away from all his transgressions that he has committed, he will surely live; he will not die."

Acts 26:20 English Standard Version
"but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God (YHWH), performing deeds in keeping with their repentance."

Hizikyah said:

not all will follow the Creator to eternal life, and many have been fooled into another "path" to eternal life, other religions and transhumanisim.... all distractions from the literal word of the Creator...

Hizikyah said:

Hizikyah · Feb 15, 2015

Starcrash said:

and yes I see why my brother said it was pointless or near pointless... For you do not even truly know/evaluate what you speak concerning the word.... I think I will depart from this thread, in sincerity, if it is the will of the Creator, I would like nothing less than for you to know Him in His unity and His truth.

( James)Yaaqob 4:3, "You ask, but do not receive, because you ask with wrong purposes, in order that you may spend it on your own lusts."

or even worse:

Isayah 59:1-4, "Behold, Yahweh's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; nor His ear heavy, that it cannot hear. But your own iniquities have separated you from your Father; and your own sins have caused Him to hide His face from you, so He will not listen. For your hands are defiled with blood, and your fingers with iniquity; sin. Your lips have spoken lies, your tongue has muttered perverseness. No one calls for justice, nor does any plead for truth. They trust in vanity; and speak lies. They conceive mischief and give birth to evil;"

Yahchanan (John) 17:9, "I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours."

1 Peter (Kepha) 3:12, "For the eyes of Yahweh are on the righteous, and His ears are open to their prayers; but the face of Yahweh is against those who do evil."

Proverbs 15:29, "Yahweh is far from the wicked, but He hears the prayer of the righteous."

p_rehbein · Feb 15, 2015

Goodness.......this is why I stated what I stated.......the deception of the unbelievers.......

God doesn't want to GIVE us EVERYTHING we ASK for..........He is FAITHFUL to GIVE us what we NEED.

People who pray for a pink Cadillac are not praying according to God's will........but unbelievers will surely bring it up.

Calling God a galactic santa clause is proof enough that people need to ignore you completely............and as I should practice what I preach.........add yet one more to the ever growing ignore list.

(I will however say a prayer for you this one night........I will pray that God reveals in your life the foolishness of your ways/words......in whatever way He wills)

Starcrash · Feb 15, 2015

p_rehbein said:

I don't believe God's power can change my mind, nor did I claim to. I said that you probably do (publicly), but your unwillingness to try to change my mind implies that you don't actually believe it (privately).

I'm not a deceiver, and I try my best not to deceive. I cite my claims (often with the bible) and try to explain my arguments from common sense/common observations. But I imagine that you're equivocating "deceiver", using it as a synonym with "unbeliever" but hoping that others will take it for its literal meaning.

Why do you prefer an echo chamber? After all, Jesus didn't. He came to save the lost... are you here to save the saved?

Starcrash · Feb 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

Why quote verses to an unbeliever? It's like if a Muslim quoted the Qur'an to you and for some reason expected that to change your mind.

Are you frustrated with your inability to convince me? I haven't convinced you, either, yet I haven't thrown up my hands and called it "pointless". You're asserting that I "do not even truly know/evaluate what speak concerning the word", yet don't even bother to try to correct me. The obvious reading of those words show that God answers prayer. You cited several verses, but not one of them backed up your claim that "God is not a vending machine". I'm guessing you didn't because they don't exist.

Starcrash · Feb 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

Ezekiyl 18:20-28, "The soul that sins, it will die. The son will not bear the iniquity of the father, nor will the father bear the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself. But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he has committed, and keep all My statutes, and do that which is Lawful and right, then he will surely live; he will not die. And his transgressions that he has committed will not be mentioned against him; in his righteousness that he has done, he will live. Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says Father Yahweh: No, but rather that he would turn back from his wicked ways, and live. But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does--should he live? All his righteousness that he has done will not be mentioned in his behalf. In his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them he will die. Yet you say; The way of Yahweh is not equal. Hear now, O house of Israyl: Is not My way equal? Are not your ways unequal? When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity and dies, it is because of the iniquity he has done, that he will die. Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is Lawful and right, he will save himself, and live. Because he considered, and turned away from all his transgressions that he has committed, he will surely live; he will not die."

Acts 26:20 English Standard Version
"but declared first to those in Damascus, then in Jerusalem and throughout all the region of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God (YHWH), performing deeds in keeping with their repentance."

not all will follow the Creator to eternal life, and many have been fooled into another "path" to eternal life, other religions and transhumanisim.... all distractions from the literal word of the Creator...

I didn't claim that "all will follow the Creator to eternal life". My citation of the bible was almost identical to yours, showing that it was God's will that they would. I claimed that they ought to "follow the Creator to eternal life" if it is both God's will and some people have prayed for it. Why should it be possible for "many [to] have been fooled into another path to eternal life" if that is against God's will and He has the power to make his will happen?

Starcrash · Feb 15, 2015

Utah said:

Why the appeal to ridicule? Is that what Jesus would do? When reading that Jesus was given a crown of thorns and a mocking sign that sarcastically called him The King of the Jews, did you think to yourself, "Yes, ridicule is exactly the appropriate way to deal with people that you disagree with. Good for them."

Starcrash · Feb 15, 2015

secularhermit said:

Does it even tackle the hypothesis that God is wrong, or does it presuppose that God is never at fault? If God was at fault, how could you possibly know it if your presupposition won't even allow you to consider it?

Hizikyah · Feb 15, 2015

Starcrash said:

He doesnt force anyone, He created us with our own free will, we can choose to seek to follow Him or to reject Him....

IMO perfectly illustrated here:

"Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says Father Yahweh: No, but rather that he would turn back from his wicked ways, and live."

in judgement all the high masons, trans-humanists, satanists, and kabbalists (and those who outright detest the ways of the Father, will have no excuse, as it will be proven that without Him and His ways, mankind will/would if YHWH did not intervene extinct itself, and they claim to be seeking peace and utopia....

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

mankind is going to nearly nuke themselves off the face of the earth all in the name of peace...

by way of the ye guuud olde "peacekeeper"

LGM-118 Peacekeeper

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[TABLE="class: infobox vcard, width: 22"]
[TR]
[TH="class: hproduct, bgcolor: #B0C4DE, colspan: 2, align: center"]LGM-118A Peacekeeper[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]

Test launch of a Peacekeeper ICBM by the 1st Strategic Aerospace Division(1 STRAD), Vandenberg AFB, CA (USAF)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Type[/TH]
[TD]Intercontinental ballistic missile[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Place of origin[/TH]
[TD]United States[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #B0C4DE, colspan: 2, align: center"]Service history[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]In service[/TH]
[TD]1986-2005[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Used by[/TH]
[TD]United States Air Force[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #B0C4DE, colspan: 2, align: center"]Production history[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Manufacturer[/TH]
[TD]Boeing, Martin Marietta, TRW, and the Denver Aerospace company[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Unit cost[/TH]
[TD]approximately $70 million[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #B0C4DE, colspan: 2, align: center"]Specifications[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Weight[/TH]
[TD]96.75 tons (195,000 lbs/88,450 kg)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Length[/TH]
[TD]71 ft 6 in (21.8 m)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Diameter[/TH]
[TD]7 ft 7 in (2.3 m)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Warhead[/TH]
[TD]up to 10 Avco Mk21 re-entry vehicles each carrying a 300 kt (1.26 Petajoule) W87-0 warhead or a 475 kt W87-1/W88 (1.99 Petajoule) warhead.[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"] Detonation
mechanism[/TH]
[TD]Groundburst and/or airburst fusing modes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"] [HR][/HR][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Engine[/TH]
[TD]Three-stage Solid-fuel rocket. First Stage: 500,000 lbf (2.2 MN thrust) Thiokol SR118 Solid-fuel rocket motor
Second Stage: Aerojet General SR119 Solid-fuel rocket motor
Third Stage: Hercules SR120 Solid-fuel rocket motor
Post-Boost Vehicle: Rocketdyne restartable Liquid-propellant rocket motor; storable hypergolic fuel[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"] Operational
range[/TH]
[TD]7,560 nmi (14,000 km; 8,700 mi)[SUP][1][/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"] Guidance
system[/TH]
[TD]Inertial (AIRS)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"]Accuracy[/TH]
[TD]393 ft 7 in (40 m) CEP[SUP][2][/SUP][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH="align: left"] Launch
platform[/TH]
[TD]Fixed silo[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
The LGM-118A Peacekeeper, also known as the MX missile (for Missile-eXperimental), was a land-based ICBM deployed by the United States starting in 1986. The Peacekeeper was a MIRV missile; it could carry up to 10 re-entry vehicles, each armed with a 300-kiloton W87 warhead/Mk21 RVs. A total of 50 missiles were deployed starting in 1986, after a long and contentious development program that traced its roots into the 1960s.
Under the START II treaty, which never entered into force, the missiles were to be removed from the U.S. nuclear arsenal in 2005, leaving the LGM-30 Minuteman as the only type of land-based ICBM in the U.S. arsenal. Despite the demise of the START II treaty, the last of the LGM-118A "Peacekeeper" ICBMs (but not their warheads) were decommissioned on September 19, 2005. Current plans are to switch 500 decommissioned Peacekeepers' W87/Mk21 warheads to the Minuteman III. Among the reasons cited for decommissioning of the Peacekeeper ICBM was its failure to achieve the program's range objectives.[SUP][3][/SUP]
The private launch firm Orbital Sciences Corporation has developed the Minotaur IV, a four-stage civilian expendable launch system, from the Peacekeeper, using old Peacekeeper components.

Grandpa · Feb 15, 2015

Starcrash said:

You would have to read the bible, several times, and pray, a lot asking the Holy Spirit to show you the answers to your questions.

It appears you know the bible. But praying maybe not so much. A lot of people don't realize that is key.

Gods Ways are mysterious in that they are not our ways. Gods Nature is consistent but our understanding of His Nature is not as consistent.

Every person that prays is different. Each of these different people need different things. They may all want the same things but God is not necessarily giving people what they want, but what they need. So trying to figure out God based on what prayers are answered and what aren't won't really work... Unless you knew before hand what the need was in each individual the way God knows.

As far as your Jesus healing everyone question your statement isn't exactly true. Did you know Paul asked Jesus to be healed and was not? Did you know that the Lords response to Paul not being healed was that His Grace was sufficient for Paul?

Hizikyah · Feb 15, 2015

Forgot a key point to that post.... everyone the Messiah healed was seeking the Creator in sincerity and truth, as the Messiah did not in anything written heal any pharisees that were in opposition to the doctrine of YHWH

Hizikyah said:

He doesnt force anyone, He created us with our own free will, we can choose to seek to follow Him or to reject Him....

IMO perfectly illustrated here:

"Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? says Father Yahweh: No, but rather that he would turn back from his wicked ways, and live."

in judgement all the high masons, trans-humanists, satanists, and kabbalists (and those who outright detest the ways of the Father, will have no excuse, as it will be proven that without Him and His ways, mankind will/would if YHWH did not intervene extinct itself, and they claim to be seeking peace and utopia....

Isayah 24:1-6, "Behold, Yahweh makes the earth empty and makes it waste, perverts the face of it and scatters abroad its inhabitants; And it will be: as with the people, so with the priest; as with the servant, so with his owner; as with the maid, so with her mistress; as with the buyer, so with the seller; as with the lender, so with the borrower; as with him who takes usury, so with him who gives usury to him: The land will be utterly emptied and utterly plundered, for Yahweh has spoken this word. The earth mourns and fades away, the world mourns and fades away, and the haughty people of the earth languish. The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants of it, because they have transgressed the Laws, changed the ordinance, and broken the everlasting covenant. Because of this, the curse has devoured the earth, and they who dwell therein are desolate; therefore, the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left."

mankind is going to nearly nuke themselves off the face of the earth all in the name of peace...

by way of the ye guuud olde "peacekeeper"

LGM-118 Peacekeeper

Starcrash · Feb 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

I hope you didn't waste too much time with that irrelevant point. Obviously I believe that people do evil things. Was there a greater point you hoped to make with that? Have you considered the alternative hypothesis to free will, that God simply doesn't have any control?

Starcrash · Feb 15, 2015

Hizikyah said:

How do you know that "everyone [he] healed was... in sincerity and truth"? Did you just assume it based on the outcome? And why do you assume that God didn't heal any pharisees just because they aren't expressly mentioned as being healed? Jesus healed the ear of the servant of the high priest when necessary... and we have no record of that servant being "in sincerity and truth" (and one would assume from the circumstances that he probably wasn't).

Starcrash · Feb 15, 2015

Grandpa said:

The reason that I seem to know the bible so well is because I do. I was a Christian in my youth and (with my Christian family) read the bible cover-to-cover five times. So I generally know what it contains and have a sense of where to find it quickly.

You're suggesting that I pray, while my post implies that I don't believe that prayer has any efficacy. I'll just go ahead and state clearly that I don't believe that prayer has any efficacy. Telling me to pray to get an answer is like me telling you that you'll find Allah by praying to him first... it's a self-fulfilling prophecy because you'd have to believe first before trying to find whether belief is the answer.

You assert that "God's ways are mysterious" simply because they "are not our ways". Are my motives that unclear to you just because they aren't yours? How about my feelings? I don't think you'd apply this logic to anyone except God, simply because you want to come to the conclusion that God is mysterious. I also don't think you'd accept that we can't understand perfect consistency just because ours isn't perfect. When adding 2 and 2, do you get something other than 4? That's what I got. I'll bet everyone here would get that. Our consistency probably isn't perfect, but it's good enough... an appeal to the necessity of perfection is just rationalizing.

Thank you for pointing out that Paul's calls for the "thorn in his flesh" were unanswered. That's a contradiction. Is "His grace sufficient" for everyone who asks for healing, or was this a clear inconsistency in His nature?

posthuman · Feb 15, 2015

Starcrash said:

perhaps you have not read:

Matthew 13:53-58

or

Luke 22:42

or

2 Corinthians 12:6-10

for example?

posthuman · Feb 15, 2015

this is also familiar to me:

The righteous perish, and no one takes it to heart;
the devout are taken away, and no one understands
that the righteous are taken away to be spared from evil.
(Isaiah 57:1)

posthuman · Feb 15, 2015

the idea that the Creator and Sustainer of heaven and earth is somehow "at our beck and call" to do whatever we ask of Him is ridiculous.

the fact that God does not answer prayer immediately (to our limited understanding), or that He does not always give us exactly what we demand of Him is a far cry from a reasonable argument that He does not exist or that He doesn't hear prayer.

gotta keep in mind that He is God and man is not. forgetting that, thinking you can judge Him, certainly He will not listen to you. doesn't the scripture say 'if anyone turns a deaf ear to Him, even their prayers are detestable' ?

Christ on earth healing all that came to Him is an astounding thing showing His great mercy, to be grateful for, not 'to be expected'

posthuman · Feb 15, 2015

Starcrash said:

it's a clear inconsistency to think of the Almighty as your servant or your inferior, that you could assign Him tasks or judge Him for failing to complete your commands.
or even your peer, that you could know Him any more than He chooses to reveal to you.

Grandpa · Feb 15, 2015

Starcrash said:

That's probably more than most who claim the title Christian.

I thought you might find this silly. But the fact remains prayer is the key to unlocking the knowledge that is contained in the bible.

Your ways aren't mysterious to me. You have been governed by the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life, just as I have. We understand each others nature. Our desires. Our will.

God is not like us. He is not governed by what we are governed by. We don't understand His Nature or we would be able to describe it to each other with perfect understanding.

If we completely understood God and His Ways we would be equal to God in our understanding. We are not equal to God in any way that I am aware of.

His Grace is Sufficient for everyone who asks for anything.

Because this life is but a moment. But the one to come is a lot longer, from what I understand.

Starcrash · Feb 15, 2015

posthuman said:

I wish you had made just one point instead of several, and had actually developed those points. And while you're at it, I wish you had provided links to more of them than just the first one. *sigh*

Matthew 13:53-58 has nothing to do with God's will or with prayer. Since miracles are commonly cited by Christians as evidence that Jesus was the Son of God, it doesn't make logical sense to "not perform miracles due to lack of faith". It seems more likely that the lack of faith came from the lack of miracles. But like I said, it has nothing to do with the efficacy of prayer because we're talking about it working for Christians, not for those who lack faith. Studies of prayer always employ believing Christians so that this won't be a factor.

Luke 22:42 is a verse I often cite to show that prayer doesn't work. If you believe that Jesus is God, then it was obviously God's will that Jesus shouldn't die (because God himself was asking for it). And yet he died... so his prayer was ineffective. You might claim that Jesus had to die for some reason or another, but to make such a claim is to say that you know more than Jesus did. Obviously he felt that such a prayer had a chance of being answered, otherwise he wouldn't have prayed it.

I responded above to "Grandpa" about this same passage where Paul prayed to have his suffering removed. If "His grace was sufficient" for Paul, why isn't it sufficient for everyone that would otherwise be healed? Even Paul shook off a poisonous snake's bite, suggesting that "His grace wasn't sufficient" for Paul always but sometimes required healing. You may note that Paul didn't pray for healing in this case, but he didn't have to because the problem was fixed without needing prayer, unlike the thorn in his flesh which drove him to prayer. This is yet another contradiction, showing that God's will isn't consistent. Couldn't Paul have learned a lesson from the snake bite, the same one that he learned from the thorn in his flesh?

God is not Mysterious

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