please...there is no heavenly mansion- the word is "abode"! study how this word is used in the Gospel of John it will become clear. there are no heavenly mansions. in my father's house (which is the church) are many abodes. I'm an abode in the church and you are an abode in the church; that means, if you do not have Christ dwelling inside of you then you are not an abobe to Christ- you are not the church which is the body of Christ(the Father's house) this is consistent with the divine and mystical teachings in John's writings
OUR HEAVENLY MANSIONS
- Thread starter blue_ladybug
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
D
I never heard of this before, just because Paul said, "Not as though I had already attained" or either were already perfect (In Phil 3:12) or that he counted not himself (in Phil 3:13) when he said, I count not myself to have apprehended in Phil 3:15 he is telling the perfect (of the which he actually does count himself) to be minded in that very way he has just set forth to them. Saying Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
You shouldnt be saying of yourself that you are perfect, he is following the same course as Job
Job 9:2 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
God could in Job 1:8, but even the next verse it shows Job saying
Job 9:3 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
So its perverse to say of yourself (according to Job) that though he were perfect (even as God had said so much) to say of yourself this thing was considered by Job to be perverse (though he were)
Whereas Paul (in respects to being minded in this way) said, "Not as though I had already attained" or either were already perfect
Because as Job said, if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
But rather Paul says,
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
He was even confident God would reveal this to you if you be otherwise minded on the same. Paul said he spoke wisdom unto the that are perfect, even as he said, "le US therefore as many AS BE PERFECT be THUS MINDED (in that which he just told them of) so I dont think you can use the one verse NOT AS THOUGH ( in respects to already were perfect) alone when it connects to the thought and finally to that LET US (therefore) AS many AS BE (perfect) there. But then again I regard Paul as being of the perfect (even though he would not count himself as such, nor did he promote to anyone, not even the perfect to be otherwise minded in that).
There are a couple of verses following after the ones you posted there is all.
You shouldnt be saying of yourself that you are perfect, he is following the same course as Job
Job 9:2 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
God could in Job 1:8, but even the next verse it shows Job saying
Job 9:3 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.
So its perverse to say of yourself (according to Job) that though he were perfect (even as God had said so much) to say of yourself this thing was considered by Job to be perverse (though he were)
Whereas Paul (in respects to being minded in this way) said, "Not as though I had already attained" or either were already perfect
Because as Job said, if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
But rather Paul says,
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
He was even confident God would reveal this to you if you be otherwise minded on the same. Paul said he spoke wisdom unto the that are perfect, even as he said, "le US therefore as many AS BE PERFECT be THUS MINDED (in that which he just told them of) so I dont think you can use the one verse NOT AS THOUGH ( in respects to already were perfect) alone when it connects to the thought and finally to that LET US (therefore) AS many AS BE (perfect) there. But then again I regard Paul as being of the perfect (even though he would not count himself as such, nor did he promote to anyone, not even the perfect to be otherwise minded in that).
There are a couple of verses following after the ones you posted there is all.
Eph 1:9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
When is the fullness of times?
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Notice they are made alive again? Now it is not the physical body that is resurrected...
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Now Paul goes on to give an analogy showing that the spiritual body that is resurrected is not the same as the body that is buried...
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
Just as flesh is different, so is the spirit body...
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
There are no scriptures that talk about a bodily resurrection to reunite the physical body with a spirit body. That is simply an extension of the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. First recorded lie..
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
God says the soul can die...
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
When is the fullness of times?
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Notice they are made alive again? Now it is not the physical body that is resurrected...
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Now Paul goes on to give an analogy showing that the spiritual body that is resurrected is not the same as the body that is buried...
1Co 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
Just as flesh is different, so is the spirit body...
1Co 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
There are no scriptures that talk about a bodily resurrection to reunite the physical body with a spirit body. That is simply an extension of the false doctrine of the immortality of the soul. First recorded lie..
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
God says the soul can die...
Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
J
Out of curiosity, what do you do with a portion of scripture such as this:
Revelation chapter 6
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
???
Where was this "altar" that John saw?
Was it not in heaven (Revelation 8:3, 5, 9:13, 14:18, 16:7) and isn't this why THE SOULS THERE asked how long it would be before God avenged their blood ON THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH?
IOW, aren't there clearly SOULS IN HEAVEN?
Granted, I know that the timing of what John saw was yet future, but if those SOULS are in heaven PRIOR TO any alleged "rapture" to heaven which isn't ever coming and which isn't taught anywhere in scripture, then what makes you think that other SOULS aren't there prior to any alleged "rapture" to heaven which isn't ever coming and which isn't taught anywhere in scripture?
Furthermore, that is what John saw and heard after the fifth seal had been opened, right?
What about what John witnessed before any seals were opened:
Revelation chapter 5
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
???
IOW, why was John weeping that there was "no man IN HEAVEN" who was found worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof if there weren't even any men IN HEAVEN as you allege?
Shall I go on?
We need to consider all portions of scripture which pertain to any given topic before even beginning to attempt to draw any conclusions from the same. How do you answer these verses which I've posted and how do they fit into your presently held belief that there are currently no men/spirits/souls IN HEAVEN?
Please explain...and then I'll give you even more verses.
Thanks.
Revelation chapter 6
[9] And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
[11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
???
Where was this "altar" that John saw?
Was it not in heaven (Revelation 8:3, 5, 9:13, 14:18, 16:7) and isn't this why THE SOULS THERE asked how long it would be before God avenged their blood ON THEM THAT DWELL ON THE EARTH?
IOW, aren't there clearly SOULS IN HEAVEN?
Granted, I know that the timing of what John saw was yet future, but if those SOULS are in heaven PRIOR TO any alleged "rapture" to heaven which isn't ever coming and which isn't taught anywhere in scripture, then what makes you think that other SOULS aren't there prior to any alleged "rapture" to heaven which isn't ever coming and which isn't taught anywhere in scripture?
Furthermore, that is what John saw and heard after the fifth seal had been opened, right?
What about what John witnessed before any seals were opened:
Revelation chapter 5
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
???
IOW, why was John weeping that there was "no man IN HEAVEN" who was found worthy to open the book and to loose the seals thereof if there weren't even any men IN HEAVEN as you allege?
Shall I go on?
We need to consider all portions of scripture which pertain to any given topic before even beginning to attempt to draw any conclusions from the same. How do you answer these verses which I've posted and how do they fit into your presently held belief that there are currently no men/spirits/souls IN HEAVEN?
Please explain...and then I'll give you even more verses.
Thanks.
First of all, the passage in Rev 6 is an allegory. They are dead and cannot cry out. The Bible has many such passages...
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Was Abel's blood really crying out? Didn't think so.
Now what is the symbolism of the souls under the altar?
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Exo 29:12 And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.
The blood of offerings and sacrifices was poured around the base of the altar. I soaked into the ground under the altar.
Notice that they are told to rest a little while longer till they fellows are killed?
And what happens to those who are dead...
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
The dead are asleep until the resurrection.
Gen 4:10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
Was Abel's blood really crying out? Didn't think so.
Now what is the symbolism of the souls under the altar?
Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
Exo 29:12 And thou shalt take of the blood of the bullock, and put it upon the horns of the altar with thy finger, and pour all the blood beside the bottom of the altar.
The blood of offerings and sacrifices was poured around the base of the altar. I soaked into the ground under the altar.
Notice that they are told to rest a little while longer till they fellows are killed?
And what happens to those who are dead...
Luk 8:52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth.
Luk 8:53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
The dead are asleep until the resurrection.
D
The souls under the altar here cried
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
But are told to rest so more should be killed as they were here
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The souls that were killed are shown asking,
How long dost thou not judge (and avenge our blood)?
How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
His answer there reflects what seems to be shown as fulfilled in Rev 18:20
Sins have reached to heaven (filled up the measure) and so now
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Which includes the apostles (there) perhaps even as the apostles being set forth last (as it were) apointed to death in the sense of what was spoken to the souls under the altar Rev 6:11
Which was...
... and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
And so it would be (as he is avenging them as shown here)
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
But are told to rest so more should be killed as they were here
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
The souls that were killed are shown asking,
How long dost thou not judge (and avenge our blood)?
How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
His answer there reflects what seems to be shown as fulfilled in Rev 18:20
Sins have reached to heaven (filled up the measure) and so now
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
Which includes the apostles (there) perhaps even as the apostles being set forth last (as it were) apointed to death in the sense of what was spoken to the souls under the altar Rev 6:11
Which was...
... and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
And so it would be (as he is avenging them as shown here)
Rev 18:20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.
D
That always reminded me of Jesus cries
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
As if he was fulfilling the unrecorded words of Abel in some sense, and Jesus also crying better words then that of Abel
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
As if he was fulfilling the unrecorded words of Abel in some sense, and Jesus also crying better words then that of Abel
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
J
Again, here's the text:
I Thessalonians chapter 4
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Here, Paul was consoling the saints at Thessalonica that they might not sorrow as others sorrow who have no hope in relation to the saints who had already "died in Christ" (vs. 16) or who were "sleeping in Jesus" (vs. 14). He went on to explain to the Thessalonians that when "the Lord Himself DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN with a shout" (vs. 16) He will "BRING those who sleep in Jesus WITH HIM" (vs.14). Again, where will Jesus be BRINGING THEM FROM? Well, He'll be BRINGING THEM FROM the very same place that He's DESCENDING OR COMING FROM Himself and that place is "HEAVEN" (vs. 16). Yes, when Christ returns, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him and they will be the first to receive their glorified bodies and then the saints who are yet alive will be caught up to meet them, Christ and the saints who had died, in the air AND THEN THEY'LL ALL COME RIGHT BACK DOWN TO EARTH TO BE A PART OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD RIGHT HERE ON EARTH:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
I Thessalonians chapter 4
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Here, Paul was consoling the saints at Thessalonica that they might not sorrow as others sorrow who have no hope in relation to the saints who had already "died in Christ" (vs. 16) or who were "sleeping in Jesus" (vs. 14). He went on to explain to the Thessalonians that when "the Lord Himself DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN with a shout" (vs. 16) He will "BRING those who sleep in Jesus WITH HIM" (vs.14). Again, where will Jesus be BRINGING THEM FROM? Well, He'll be BRINGING THEM FROM the very same place that He's DESCENDING OR COMING FROM Himself and that place is "HEAVEN" (vs. 16). Yes, when Christ returns, He will bring the dead in Christ with Him and they will be the first to receive their glorified bodies and then the saints who are yet alive will be caught up to meet them, Christ and the saints who had died, in the air AND THEN THEY'LL ALL COME RIGHT BACK DOWN TO EARTH TO BE A PART OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD RIGHT HERE ON EARTH:
I Corinthians chapter 15
[50] Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[51] Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
D
I Thessalonians chapter 4
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Try it highlighted that way though...
See how those which are asleep (dead in Christ) rise first THEN they which are alive and remain so that these (alive and remaining) would be caught up WITH THEM (which rise first, or the dead in Christ)
No?
[13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
Try it highlighted that way though...
See how those which are asleep (dead in Christ) rise first THEN they which are alive and remain so that these (alive and remaining) would be caught up WITH THEM (which rise first, or the dead in Christ)
No?
Last edited:
J
I'm not sure what you're suggesting...?
Are you suggesting that Christ resurrects the dead saints and then they meet Him in the air and THEN He brings them with Him as opposed to Him bringing the dead in Christ with Him from heaven?
If you are, then, again, we need to consider all of the pertinent verses in order to properly ascertain what is actually being said. For example, elsewhere, this same Paul wrote:
II Corinthians chapter 5
[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[3] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
[5] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight):
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
[9] Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
What does that underlined part mean?
I mean, Paul said that while he was yet at home IN THE BODY he was absent from the Lord, right?
Well, what did he say that he was willing to experience instead?
Wasn't it to be absent from the body AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD?
What does "being present with the Lord" mean if not "being present with the Lord"?
Where's the Lord?
Sleeping in the dust or in heaven?
Paul also had the following to say:
Philippians chapter 1
[21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
[22] But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
[23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
[24] Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Didn't Paul say that he was in a strait between two desires?
On the one hand, Paul desired to no longer live in the flesh or to die AND TO BE WITH CHRIST WHICH IS FAR BETTER while on the other hand he desired to remain alive that he might yet help others, right?
Well, when would he "BE WITH CHRIST" after dying?
Thousands of years later...after allegedly "sleeping in the dust" for a couple of millennia?
It's nonsense...yet many people believe the same (I'm not implying that you do, but many others do).
Paul continued on to write the following to these same Philippians:
Philippians chapter 2
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Who/what are these "things IN HEAVEN" which are going to bow the knee before Jesus and confess that He is Lord to the glory of the Father? Are they not men who were needful of salvation IN FULFILLMENT OF WHAT ISAIAH HAD PROPHESIED:
Isaiah chapter 45
[22] Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
???
Are you suggesting that Christ resurrects the dead saints and then they meet Him in the air and THEN He brings them with Him as opposed to Him bringing the dead in Christ with Him from heaven?
If you are, then, again, we need to consider all of the pertinent verses in order to properly ascertain what is actually being said. For example, elsewhere, this same Paul wrote:
II Corinthians chapter 5
[1] For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
[2] For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
[3] If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
[4] For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
[5] Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
[6] Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
[7] (For we walk by faith, not by sight):
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
[9] Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
What does that underlined part mean?
I mean, Paul said that while he was yet at home IN THE BODY he was absent from the Lord, right?
Well, what did he say that he was willing to experience instead?
Wasn't it to be absent from the body AND TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD?
What does "being present with the Lord" mean if not "being present with the Lord"?
Where's the Lord?
Sleeping in the dust or in heaven?
Paul also had the following to say:
Philippians chapter 1
[21] For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
[22] But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
[23] For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
[24] Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Didn't Paul say that he was in a strait between two desires?
On the one hand, Paul desired to no longer live in the flesh or to die AND TO BE WITH CHRIST WHICH IS FAR BETTER while on the other hand he desired to remain alive that he might yet help others, right?
Well, when would he "BE WITH CHRIST" after dying?
Thousands of years later...after allegedly "sleeping in the dust" for a couple of millennia?
It's nonsense...yet many people believe the same (I'm not implying that you do, but many others do).
Paul continued on to write the following to these same Philippians:
Philippians chapter 2
[9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[10] That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
[11] And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Who/what are these "things IN HEAVEN" which are going to bow the knee before Jesus and confess that He is Lord to the glory of the Father? Are they not men who were needful of salvation IN FULFILLMENT OF WHAT ISAIAH HAD PROPHESIED:
Isaiah chapter 45
[22] Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
[23] I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
???
J
Let's hope BLB's fun thread doesn't turn into a debate..
original quote by Reborn..
just a subtle reminder..
thanks..
original quote by Reborn..
just a subtle reminder..
thanks..
I didn't engage in this thread to "debate", but merely to address your OP which I initially did. I felt the need to address some other posts because I didn't really see them as being off topic in that we need to be able to properly ascertain what/where "the Father's house" is, whether or not "the kingdom of heaven" is coming to earth or whether or not we're allegedly being whisked away to it in heaven, etc., etc., etc.
Anyhow, if you don't want any more commentary from me, then I'll just go my merry way...
D
In otherwords I was seeking to have them better recconciled between all the same.
What I was doing was rehighlighting to better catch what he was suggesting concerning the dead (or of those that SHALL rise first) in relation to them who would be ALIVE and remained unto his coming. He still says they rise FIRST and its them who coming WITH Him who (those who are alive and remain) meet.
That is just not reconciled with me yet, so I will have question.
I have to look at this more closely, I am aware of those verses you posted, but they havent made the other anymore clearer for me.
What I was doing was rehighlighting to better catch what he was suggesting concerning the dead (or of those that SHALL rise first) in relation to them who would be ALIVE and remained unto his coming. He still says they rise FIRST and its them who coming WITH Him who (those who are alive and remain) meet.
That is just not reconciled with me yet, so I will have question.
I have to look at this more closely, I am aware of those verses you posted, but they havent made the other anymore clearer for me.
****************************************************************************************
I can only take one portion at a time. I think i could answer them all!
Revelation 6:
This altar is in the outer court(of the Gentiles). It is on the earth. The holy of holies with the ark are in heaven. So under the altar means under the earth where hades(Eph 4:9) is-the abode of the dead,righteous and unrighteous(Luke 16). This can not be used to prove they are in heaven.
I can only take one portion at a time. I think i could answer them all!
Revelation 6:
This altar is in the outer court(of the Gentiles). It is on the earth. The holy of holies with the ark are in heaven. So under the altar means under the earth where hades(Eph 4:9) is-the abode of the dead,righteous and unrighteous(Luke 16). This can not be used to prove they are in heaven.
Revelation chapter 5
Hi JITC
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
You tell me who are the men under the earth then I will tell you those in heaven
Hi JITC
[1] And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
[2] And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
[3] And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
[4] And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
You tell me who are the men under the earth then I will tell you those in heaven