Job's Heart Condition
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Hello JITC
This thread has sparked me to re-read Job - it's actually been many years and i only really remember the broad strokes.
I am at the part where Job decries he is not a sinner and would confess it if he were...in the past i vaguely wondered about this as there is only One who never sinned. Or perhaps just prior to his trials he had been cleansed of sin and was in a sense - however briefly, 'perfect'.
If I am correct, you assert that he very much is a sinner and provide verses that point to 'general' sin...is there anywhere in Job that points to specific 'sin' - or is this perhaps his pride in denying he sinned...? Thanks
This thread has sparked me to re-read Job - it's actually been many years and i only really remember the broad strokes.
I am at the part where Job decries he is not a sinner and would confess it if he were...in the past i vaguely wondered about this as there is only One who never sinned. Or perhaps just prior to his trials he had been cleansed of sin and was in a sense - however briefly, 'perfect'.
If I am correct, you assert that he very much is a sinner and provide verses that point to 'general' sin...is there anywhere in Job that points to specific 'sin' - or is this perhaps his pride in denying he sinned...? Thanks
Also it would seem that this is the fundamental error; two camps. One that say he was without sin and one that say he is a sinner.
I'm looking to get to the very crux of the meaning of this book as i hate to admit in my impatient youth my eyes tended to glaze over whenever i studied this scripture. Thanks
I'm looking to get to the very crux of the meaning of this book as i hate to admit in my impatient youth my eyes tended to glaze over whenever i studied this scripture. Thanks
J
Hi, longtrekker.
I'm assuming that you've read my previous posts on this thread, so I'm just going to allude to certain things which I've already documented and not bother citing the actual verses again.
What do we know of a certaintly from the book of Job?
Well, we know at least the following:
1. Job, in the midst of his ordeal, lamented that there was no "daysman" or "umpire" or "mediator" between him and God who could lay his hand upon both of them and mediate between the same.
2. After both Job and his three friends had finished speaking, Elihu spoke up and told Job that he was there according to his wish in God's stead. IOW, Elihu told Job that he was his requested mediator between God and man.
3. Elihu then proceeded to rebuke Job's three friends and Job.
4. Immediately after Elihu finished speaking, the LORD Himself spoke and He rebuked Job and his three friends, BUT HE NEVER REBUKED ELIHU.
This is all fact and not conjecture or theory.
With such being the case, I wholeheartedly suggest to you that the key to understanding the book of Job is found BOTH in what Elihu stated AND in the LORD's confirmation of the same when He began to speak. What, then, did both Elihu and the LORD address with Job? Well, they both addressed PRIDE and Job ultimately said that he was "vile", he "put his hand over his mouth" after realizing what a fool he had been and he "abhorred himself and repented in dust and ashes". I mean, what non-sinner does the same? It's absolutely LUDICROUS for anybody to even suggest that Job was innocent in this ordeal. Granted, INITIALLY Job didn't sin with his lips in that he rightly noted that the LORD gives and the LORD takes away and in that he rightly noted that he entered this world naked and that he wasn't taking anything out of this world either. AFTER THAT, HOWEVER, JOB WENT ON A SELF-RIGHTEOUS RANT/RAMPAGE WHERE HE REPEATEDLY JUSTIFIED HIMSELF WHILE REPEATEDLY CONDEMNING GOD. THIS is what he "ADDED UNTO his sin" and is NOT just his only "sin" itself. Again, what was his sin? Here's Elihu's introductory comments and his latter comments agree with the same as do the comments of the LORD Himself:
Job chapter 33
[1] Wherefore, Job, I pray thee, hear my speeches, and hearken to all my words.
[2] Behold, now I have opened my mouth, my tongue hath spoken in my mouth.
[3] My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly.
[4] The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
[5] If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.
[6] Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.
[7] Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.
[8] Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying,
[9] I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me.
[10] Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
[11] He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.
[12] Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
[13] Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
[14] For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
[15] In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
[16] Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
[17] That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
[18] He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
[19] He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:
[20] So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
[21] His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
[22] Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
[23] If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
[24] Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
[25] His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
[26] He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
[27] He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
[28] He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
[29] Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
[30] To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
The implication here is that God had been striving with Job repeatedly via dreams and/or visions of the night in an attempt to WITHOLD JOB FROM HIS PURPOSE AND HIDE PRIDE FROM HIM...but apparently Job wasn't getting the message.
Look, I've been a God-fearing Christian myself for 26+ years now and I ALWAYS pray for God to speak to me even in my dreams at night...AND HE DOES! There have been countless times when God has done with ME exactly what Elihu stated to Job that "God oftentimes works with man". IOW, God has repeatedly spoken unto me in dreams to WITHOLD ME FROM PURPOSES WHICH WEREN'T RIGHT (even as he did with the king Abimelech who took Abraham's wife - Genesis chapter 20) and to HIDE PRIDE FROM ME...and I thank God that He's done just that.
Anyhow, I'd literally be happy to go through each and every verse of each and every chapter of the book of Job with you if it would help.
I'm assuming that you've read my previous posts on this thread, so I'm just going to allude to certain things which I've already documented and not bother citing the actual verses again.
What do we know of a certaintly from the book of Job?
Well, we know at least the following:
1. Job, in the midst of his ordeal, lamented that there was no "daysman" or "umpire" or "mediator" between him and God who could lay his hand upon both of them and mediate between the same.
2. After both Job and his three friends had finished speaking, Elihu spoke up and told Job that he was there according to his wish in God's stead. IOW, Elihu told Job that he was his requested mediator between God and man.
3. Elihu then proceeded to rebuke Job's three friends and Job.
4. Immediately after Elihu finished speaking, the LORD Himself spoke and He rebuked Job and his three friends, BUT HE NEVER REBUKED ELIHU.
This is all fact and not conjecture or theory.
With such being the case, I wholeheartedly suggest to you that the key to understanding the book of Job is found BOTH in what Elihu stated AND in the LORD's confirmation of the same when He began to speak. What, then, did both Elihu and the LORD address with Job? Well, they both addressed PRIDE and Job ultimately said that he was "vile", he "put his hand over his mouth" after realizing what a fool he had been and he "abhorred himself and repented in dust and ashes". I mean, what non-sinner does the same? It's absolutely LUDICROUS for anybody to even suggest that Job was innocent in this ordeal. Granted, INITIALLY Job didn't sin with his lips in that he rightly noted that the LORD gives and the LORD takes away and in that he rightly noted that he entered this world naked and that he wasn't taking anything out of this world either. AFTER THAT, HOWEVER, JOB WENT ON A SELF-RIGHTEOUS RANT/RAMPAGE WHERE HE REPEATEDLY JUSTIFIED HIMSELF WHILE REPEATEDLY CONDEMNING GOD. THIS is what he "ADDED UNTO his sin" and is NOT just his only "sin" itself. Again, what was his sin? Here's Elihu's introductory comments and his latter comments agree with the same as do the comments of the LORD Himself:
Job chapter 33
[1] Wherefore, Job, I pray thee, hear my speeches, and hearken to all my words.
[2] Behold, now I have opened my mouth, my tongue hath spoken in my mouth.
[3] My words shall be of the uprightness of my heart: and my lips shall utter knowledge clearly.
[4] The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.
[5] If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.
[6] Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.
[7] Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.
[8] Surely thou hast spoken in mine hearing, and I have heard the voice of thy words, saying,
[9] I am clean without transgression, I am innocent; neither is there iniquity in me.
[10] Behold, he findeth occasions against me, he counteth me for his enemy,
[11] He putteth my feet in the stocks, he marketh all my paths.
[12] Behold, in this thou art not just: I will answer thee, that God is greater than man.
[13] Why dost thou strive against him? for he giveth not account of any of his matters.
[14] For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not.
[15] In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed;
[16] Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction,
[17] That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man.
[18] He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.
[19] He is chastened also with pain upon his bed, and the multitude of his bones with strong pain:
[20] So that his life abhorreth bread, and his soul dainty meat.
[21] His flesh is consumed away, that it cannot be seen; and his bones that were not seen stick out.
[22] Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
[23] If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:
[24] Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.
[25] His flesh shall be fresher than a child's: he shall return to the days of his youth:
[26] He shall pray unto God, and he will be favourable unto him: and he shall see his face with joy: for he will render unto man his righteousness.
[27] He looketh upon men, and if any say, I have sinned, and perverted that which was right, and it profited me not;
[28] He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.
[29] Lo, all these things worketh God oftentimes with man,
[30] To bring back his soul from the pit, to be enlightened with the light of the living.
The implication here is that God had been striving with Job repeatedly via dreams and/or visions of the night in an attempt to WITHOLD JOB FROM HIS PURPOSE AND HIDE PRIDE FROM HIM...but apparently Job wasn't getting the message.
Look, I've been a God-fearing Christian myself for 26+ years now and I ALWAYS pray for God to speak to me even in my dreams at night...AND HE DOES! There have been countless times when God has done with ME exactly what Elihu stated to Job that "God oftentimes works with man". IOW, God has repeatedly spoken unto me in dreams to WITHOLD ME FROM PURPOSES WHICH WEREN'T RIGHT (even as he did with the king Abimelech who took Abraham's wife - Genesis chapter 20) and to HIDE PRIDE FROM ME...and I thank God that He's done just that.
Anyhow, I'd literally be happy to go through each and every verse of each and every chapter of the book of Job with you if it would help.
E
In the case with Job it would depend on what nature you are referring to. As in the spirit Job was considered by GOD to be perfect, upright and feared evil. As in the natural he as in us were born into sin. What the story of Job is teaching is so much greater than one truly dives into. the heart condition of Job was more about how he dealt with adversity, who surrounded him and influenced him, what he would not allow to interfere with his relationship with GOD.
Blessings!!!!!!!
Blessings!!!!!!!
It's summed up by Elihu who held his tongue and listened closely to Job arguing with his three friends. Job was justifying himself in his argument, and Job's three friends were accusing Job wrongfully. Job's three friends showed no repentance untill they went to Job as a priest after Job, who was the only one of him and his three friends, said the right thing when he said "I abhor myself, and I repent..."
I think the whole point is that God does not owe us any explanation for any trials or suffferings we go through. As long as we are not burning in Hell, we are better than we deserve and should always be thankful. Job was whining about why God refused to explain to him the troubles he was having, and Job stated that as the summary of his argument in 32:35, practically demanding the Almighty would answer him and when God really did answer Him backing up Elihu's rebuke, Job shut his mouth, abhored himself, and repented in dustcloth and ashes...counting himself dead and buried as he deserved to be before the trials began as well as after.
In Job, people often get hung up in the middle of the arguments tryign to figure out little things that were right and little things that were wrong. All three of Job's friends were in the wrong, as well as Job, and all of their arguments because of that were corrupt. Job was justifying himself, and his three friends were falsely accusing him, and Elihu saw through it and rebuked Job correctly. The three friends remained in their pride even through Elihu's rebuke, thinking Job was getting straightened out while they were good to go. God would have struck those three dead had they not obeyed and offered a sacrifice and had Job pray over them that their sacrifice be accepted as representative of thier own deaths for their own sin.
Job and all of his three friends laced their arguments with pieces of truth, but because they were all arguing from their own pride, they were all wrong and the "truths" of their arguments have to be taken with a grain of salt. That's how false doctine creeps into the churches, riding on pieces of truth with compromises which allow for pride in the hearts of the ones who are elevating themselves with eloquence of speech.
We all should abhor ourselves as we are the wicked sinners who deserve to burn in Hell and no matter how much suffering we go through in this world, it's less than we deserve. All of our righteouness is filthy rags in God's sight and He owes us no explanation for troubles we have or get. We should always be thankful becuase the Lord is good, His mercy endures forever, He has not dealt with us according to our sin. His mercy is always new because we always deserve to be burning in Hell and we shoudl always be thankful for being saved from it.
I think the whole point is that God does not owe us any explanation for any trials or suffferings we go through. As long as we are not burning in Hell, we are better than we deserve and should always be thankful. Job was whining about why God refused to explain to him the troubles he was having, and Job stated that as the summary of his argument in 32:35, practically demanding the Almighty would answer him and when God really did answer Him backing up Elihu's rebuke, Job shut his mouth, abhored himself, and repented in dustcloth and ashes...counting himself dead and buried as he deserved to be before the trials began as well as after.
In Job, people often get hung up in the middle of the arguments tryign to figure out little things that were right and little things that were wrong. All three of Job's friends were in the wrong, as well as Job, and all of their arguments because of that were corrupt. Job was justifying himself, and his three friends were falsely accusing him, and Elihu saw through it and rebuked Job correctly. The three friends remained in their pride even through Elihu's rebuke, thinking Job was getting straightened out while they were good to go. God would have struck those three dead had they not obeyed and offered a sacrifice and had Job pray over them that their sacrifice be accepted as representative of thier own deaths for their own sin.
Job and all of his three friends laced their arguments with pieces of truth, but because they were all arguing from their own pride, they were all wrong and the "truths" of their arguments have to be taken with a grain of salt. That's how false doctine creeps into the churches, riding on pieces of truth with compromises which allow for pride in the hearts of the ones who are elevating themselves with eloquence of speech.
We all should abhor ourselves as we are the wicked sinners who deserve to burn in Hell and no matter how much suffering we go through in this world, it's less than we deserve. All of our righteouness is filthy rags in God's sight and He owes us no explanation for troubles we have or get. We should always be thankful becuase the Lord is good, His mercy endures forever, He has not dealt with us according to our sin. His mercy is always new because we always deserve to be burning in Hell and we shoudl always be thankful for being saved from it.
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I agree with your comments about the book of Job, but for one thing: I do not see where Job ever condemned God, let alone repeatedly condemned God. I do see where Job complained that God was not explaining to him why so much trouble fell on him, but I do not see Job condmning God. Please show me if I am wrong or missing something in this. I'm open to correction. Job is one of my favorite books, I've read it many times...dozens I guess
J
Hi, SaintJoeNow.
By "condemning God", I'm referring to such examples as these which were given by Elihu in his rebuke of Job (this is just a sample):
Job chapter 34
[1] Furthermore Elihu answered and said,
[2] Hear my words, O ye wise men; and give ear unto me, ye that have knowledge.
[3] For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat.
[4] Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.
[5] For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.
[6] Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression.
[7] What man is like Job, who drinketh up scorning like water?
[8] Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men.
[9] For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God.
[10] Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
[11] For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
[12] Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
[13] Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
[14] If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
[15] All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
[16] If now thou hast understanding, hear this: hearken to the voice of my words.
[17] Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?
[18] Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly?
[19] How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.
By saying such things as "God has taken away my judgment" (vs. 5), "my wound is incurable without cause" (vs.6) and "it profits a man nothing that he should delight himself with God" (vs. 9), Job was, in effect, accusing God of "doing wickedness" (vs. 10) and "committing iniquity" (vs. 10) and "CONDEMNING HIM THAT IS MOST JUST" (vs. 17).
Like I said, that's just a sample, but I hope that it helps.
By "condemning God", I'm referring to such examples as these which were given by Elihu in his rebuke of Job (this is just a sample):
Job chapter 34
[1] Furthermore Elihu answered and said,
[2] Hear my words, O ye wise men; and give ear unto me, ye that have knowledge.
[3] For the ear trieth words, as the mouth tasteth meat.
[4] Let us choose to us judgment: let us know among ourselves what is good.
[5] For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.
[6] Should I lie against my right? my wound is incurable without transgression.
[7] What man is like Job, who drinketh up scorning like water?
[8] Which goeth in company with the workers of iniquity, and walketh with wicked men.
[9] For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God.
[10] Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
[11] For the work of a man shall he render unto him, and cause every man to find according to his ways.
[12] Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
[13] Who hath given him a charge over the earth? or who hath disposed the whole world?
[14] If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
[15] All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.
[16] If now thou hast understanding, hear this: hearken to the voice of my words.
[17] Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?
[18] Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly?
[19] How much less to him that accepteth not the persons of princes, nor regardeth the rich more than the poor? for they all are the work of his hands.
By saying such things as "God has taken away my judgment" (vs. 5), "my wound is incurable without cause" (vs.6) and "it profits a man nothing that he should delight himself with God" (vs. 9), Job was, in effect, accusing God of "doing wickedness" (vs. 10) and "committing iniquity" (vs. 10) and "CONDEMNING HIM THAT IS MOST JUST" (vs. 17).
Like I said, that's just a sample, but I hope that it helps.
J
Here's what the LORD Himself said to Job:
Job chapter 40
[6] Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
[7] Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
[8] Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
I mean, c'mon...
Job chapter 40
[6] Then answered the LORD unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
[7] Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
[8] Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
I mean, c'mon...
There is nothing in your post that says Job condemned God. Maybe Job's friends accused Job of condemning God, but I do not see where Job condemned God. You said he REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD in caps, and if your posts showed where Job condemned God I would not have asked you to explain your assertion that he did.
Are you sure Job condemned God? Can you show me in Job's words where he condemned God?
The accusations of Job's friends do not count, unless you agree with Job's friends which I think you made it clear were in the wrong the same as Job was in the wrong but in a different way.
Are you sure Job condemned God? Can you show me in Job's words where he condemned God?
The accusations of Job's friends do not count, unless you agree with Job's friends which I think you made it clear were in the wrong the same as Job was in the wrong but in a different way.
God asked Job is he would condemn Him, but where did Job condemn God? "comeon" is not an explanation. Show me where Job condemned God or I will have to continue saying what I have always said, that Job never cursed God as Satan predected he would. He came close to condemning God, he came close to cursing God, but he never did. Please show me from Job's words if I am wrong.
If you are going to say Job REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD in big caps as if the strengty of caps proves what you are saying is true, then you should show in Job's words at least two of the references in which he condemned God. He came close to condemning God, but I don't see where he actually did that. Eilhu rebuked him before Job went that far in arguing to justify himself. The next step for Job in that line of arguing would have been to curse God and die, but from the start of his physicall affliction when he told his wife she was talking foolish to suggest he do that, to the end when Job finished his speeches with whining about desiring that God would explain to Job why Job was afflicted, he never condemned God, he never cursed God.
J
Just as an FYI, unless I state otherwise in parentheses, I use CAPITALIZATION strictly for emphasis and not as "proof" of anything.
As far as "condemning God" is concerned, again, just read the examples that Elihu gave and then go and find where Job said the same and read the words of the LORD as well. It's not my job to convince you or anybody else of anything, so I'm not going to browbeat you about this or anything else for that matter. You asked a question and I provided you with an answer. If you disagree with the same, then fine. We're all ultimately accountable for ourselves before God.
As far as "condemning God" is concerned, again, just read the examples that Elihu gave and then go and find where Job said the same and read the words of the LORD as well. It's not my job to convince you or anybody else of anything, so I'm not going to browbeat you about this or anything else for that matter. You asked a question and I provided you with an answer. If you disagree with the same, then fine. We're all ultimately accountable for ourselves before God.
In verse 17, Elihu was talking to all four of the men, asking the question of condemning God to all four of the men. That does not show where Job condemned God.
You cannot show in Job's words where you say he condemned God because he never did. You are misunderstanding. You are trying to twist things to support your argument, but you cannot show in Job's words where he condemned God.
Condemned God, cursed God, either way...show me in Job's words where he condemned God of I have to continue saying he never did.
Also you cannot show me where Elihu or God said "Job, you condemned God" . You are twisting things to insert the idea that Job condemned God. He never did. He justified himself, but he did not condemn God. The rebuke from Elihu was saying in paraphrase, "oh, you justify yourself, so you are going to condemn God?" That would be the progression of Job's argument, but Job never went that far with it. Before Job got to that point, the Lord spoke to Job directly and Job repented.
You cannot show in Job's words where you say he condemned God because he never did. You are misunderstanding. You are trying to twist things to support your argument, but you cannot show in Job's words where he condemned God.
Condemned God, cursed God, either way...show me in Job's words where he condemned God of I have to continue saying he never did.
Also you cannot show me where Elihu or God said "Job, you condemned God" . You are twisting things to insert the idea that Job condemned God. He never did. He justified himself, but he did not condemn God. The rebuke from Elihu was saying in paraphrase, "oh, you justify yourself, so you are going to condemn God?" That would be the progression of Job's argument, but Job never went that far with it. Before Job got to that point, the Lord spoke to Job directly and Job repented.