Job's Heart Condition

[SaintJoeNow]

In verse 17, Elihu was talking to all four of the men, asking the question of condemning God to all four of the men. That does not show where Job condemned God.

You cannot show in Job's words where you say he condemned God because he never did. You are misunderstanding. You are trying to twist things to support your argument, but you cannot show in Job's words where he condemned God.

Condemned God, cursed God, either way...show me in Job's words where he condemned God of I have to continue saying he never did.

Also you cannot show me where Elihu or God said "Job, you condemned God" . You are twisting things to insert the idea that Job condemned God. He never did. He justified himself, but he did not condemn God. The rebuke from Elihu was saying in paraphrase, "oh, you justify yourself, so you are going to condemn God?" That would be the progression of Job's argument, but Job never went that far with it. Before Job got to that point, the Lord spoke to Job directly and Job repented.

You cannot show me in Job's words where he condemned God. He never did.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

You cannot show me in Job's words where he condemned God. He never did.

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "condemned" and what do you base that definition upon?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

just read the examples that Elihu gave and then go and find where Job said the same


Show me where Job said the things you say Elihu was making examples of. Elihu was asking Job questions, he was not quoting Job. Job never condemned God. Elihu asked if he was going to condemn God, and at that sime time the question was also being directed to Job's three friends.

You can go back and read Job's arguments a dozen times trying to find where he condemned God. He never did, unless I missed something in the many times I have carefully read the book of Job. It is possible that I missed something, that's why I keep reading the Bible through and through over and over, and my favorite books of which Job is one many times in between the regular disciplined cover to cover reading times.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "condemned" and what do you base that definition upon?

I'm still waiting for an answer to my question.

It might benefit you to look up the word "justify" and then seek antonyms for the same. If you do, then I guarantee you that over and over and over again you'll find that "condemn" is the antonym of "justify". Who did Job repeatedly "justify"? Himself or God? If the answer is himself and it is, then...

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Out of curiosity, what is your definition of "condemned" and what do you base that definition upon?

If you have to ask what I say the definition of "condemned" is, then you have to first explain what the definition of "is" is. I think the definition of condemned is common English. The same with the word "is".

I think you are looking for an obscure definition of "condemned" so you can make it fit your idea of asserting that Job "REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD" (your caps, not mine) because you are unable to show in Job's words where he condemned God. Again, maybe I missed something in Job's words where he actually did condemn God. Show me where if you with big caps emphasize your assertion that it is there. In Job's words, where did he condemn God? I say he never did, and I have studied Job's words throughout the book of Job carefully many times. Did I miss something?

 

[JesusistheChrist]

If you have to ask what I say the definition of "condemned" is, then you have to first explain what the definition of "is" is. I think the definition of condemned is common English. The same with the word "is".

I think you are looking for an obscure definition of "condemned" so you can make it fit your idea of asserting that Job "REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD" (your caps, not mine) because you are unable to show in Job's words where he condemned God. Again, maybe I missed something in Job's words where he actually did condemn God. Show me where if you with big caps emphasize your assertion that it is there. In Job's words, where did he condemn God? I say he never did, and I have studied Job's words throughout the book of Job carefully many times. Did I miss something?

Please read my last response. There's nothing the least bit "obscure" about it. Thanks.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Except for this point, I agree with all you said about Job and I give you credit for that. Most people don't get that far in understanding the book of Job.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

If you have to ask what I say the definition of "condemned" is, then you have to first explain what the definition of "is" is. I think the definition of condemned is common English. The same with the word "is".

I think you are looking for an obscure definition of "condemned" so you can make it fit your idea of asserting that Job "REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD" (your caps, not mine) because you are unable to show in Job's words where he condemned God. Again, maybe I missed something in Job's words where he actually did condemn God. Show me where if you with big caps emphasize your assertion that it is there. In Job's words, where did he condemn God? I say he never did, and I have studied Job's words throughout the book of Job carefully many times. Did I miss something?

Yes, the definition of "condemned" ought to be common knowledge in English, but so ought its ANTONYM to be the same. Again, who did Job justify? Himself or God? Who did Job condemn? Himself or God? This isn't rocket science.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Except for this point, I agree with all you said about Job and I give you credit for that. Most people don't get that far in understanding the book of Job.

"This point" is precisely why I'm asking you what your definition of "condemned" is. Again, it is the ANTONYM of "justified" and I trust that we both recognize that Job "justified" himself and NOT God.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Just to show that the two words are antonyms:

"For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12:37)

 

[DesiredHaven]

I have just one question myself on Job 40:8

When God says,

Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Why does it say wilt THOU ALSO there?

And will he or has he?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

You need to refer to the words of Job in which you say he condemned God, and quit referring back to your last post.

Even in your posts which you say show Job repeatedly condemned God, neither Elihu nor God ever said "Job, you have condemed God". Job never took his argument of self-justification that far. Job never condemned God. Satan said he would and he never did. He did complain about not understanding why God had let this trial fall on him when he really didn't think he deserved it, but he never condemned God, never cursed God.....and I think the words are interchangeable. If you don't want them to be used interchangably, then don't. There is still no place you can show me in Job's words where he condemned God.

To be consistent, the "condemn God" would be equal to Satan's prediction that Job would "curse" God. He never did condemn God, and he never did curse God, either/or.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

"This point" is precisely why I'm asking you what your definition of "condemned" is. Again, it is the ANTONYM of "justified" and I trust that we both recognize that Job "justified" himself and NOT God.

So where did Job take his argument into the "antynom" and where did Job curse God? He never did. Elihu rebuked him before he got that far, God spoke to Job out of the whirlwind, and Job dropped his argument when he realized where it was going, but he never went there.

You cannot show me in Job's words where he cursed God. I don't need a thesaurus explanation of "condemned"

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Yes, the definition of "condemned" ought to be common knowledge in English, but so ought its ANTONYM to be the same. Again, who did Job justify? Himself or God? Who did Job condemn? Himself or God? This isn't rocket science.

It's not rocket science, but it may be a trip in space for a cadet if you can't come down to earh and show me in Job's words where he condemned God. If you cannot show in Job's words where he condemned God, how can you claim to understand Elihu's rebuke of Job when you say Job CONDEMNED GOD REPEATEDLY (your caps, not mine..caps are generally used as a show of force....now you need to show with intellect in Job's words where he condemned God or you need to rethink your understanding of the book.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

It's not rocket science, but it may be a trip in space for a cadet if you can't come down to earh and show me in Job's words where he condemned God. If you cannot show in Job's words where he condemned God, how can you claim to understand Elihu's rebuke of Job when you say Job CONDEMNED GOD REPEATEDLY (your caps, not mine..caps are generally used as a show of force....now you need to show with intellect in Job's words where he condemned God or you need to rethink your understanding of the book.

Fine, then.

I'll go directly to Job's words, but that won't be until tonight or tomorrow morning. Right now, I need to take my son for a haircut and then run some other errands, but I will go directly to Job's words as you've requested either tonight or tomorrow.

 

[DesiredHaven]

And why is the word curse (as in curse God) and die that come through his own wife shown along with the words bless?

Anyone notice that?

Job 2:9 Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse[SUP]H1288[/SUP]God, and die

Here it is curse H1288



See bless beside it 302 times there?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Now I will speculate a bit, because I don't like to jump to conclusions....but it is worth thinking about....
This is the ONLY (my caps, using caps because I'm really not sure what I'm about to say is correct and I'm trying to convince myself that it is right, but I'm keeping an open mind to the possibility that I may be wrong)....

The ONLY thing which throughout the Book of Job supported Gods boasting of Job as being "perfect". He NEVER (again, my caps, because I'm pretty sure I'm right but I could be wrong, and welcome anybody to show me from Jobs words where I am wrong) NEVER "CONDEMNED GOD" (your caps), let alone "REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD" (your caps again).

Now about the perfect thing, I'm speculating....but I'm sure others in this thread are misunderstanding that part of God's assessment of Job. This is the thing Satan was trying to make Job fall into, to curse or to condemn God, and Job did not fall. In this, Job remained perfect. He simply whined and complained and tried to justify himself as being afflicted without cause. I think Job was trying to say he was perfect for good behavior while his friends were trying to make him confess to some kind of wicked sin, and that in that way he was justifying himself to complain against God, but he never condemned God.

Again, if you can show me in Job's words where he condemned God, please do. If you cannot, then I have to say you are misunderstanding things when you say Job "REPEATEDLY CONDEMNED GOD".

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Fine, then.

I'll go directly to Job's words, but that won't be until tonight or tomorrow morning. Right now, I need to take my son for a haircut and then run some other errands, but I will go directly to Job's words as you've requested either tonight or tomorrow.

Thank you.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Hello JITC

This thread has sparked me to re-read Job - it's actually been many years and i only really remember the broad strokes.

I am at the part where Job decries he is not a sinner and would confess it if he were...in the past i vaguely wondered about this as there is only One who never sinned. Or perhaps just prior to his trials he had been cleansed of sin and was in a sense - however briefly, 'perfect'.

If I am correct, you assert that he very much is a sinner and provide verses that point to 'general' sin...is there anywhere in Job that points to specific 'sin' - or is this perhaps his pride in denying he sinned...? Thanks

Keep in mind the keys of the book as (1)the beginning of the argument which was God boasting of Job and Satan challenging God by saying Job only served God because God blessed and protected him, (2) Job being tried by losing everything except his nagging wife who told him to curse God and die (3) The arguments between Job and his three friends which makes up the bulk of the book (4) Job's summary of his entire argument beginning in 31:35 and finishing when Job in verse 40 said "The words of Job are ended"., which also put an end to his friends arguments when they realized nothing they could say would make Job stop being righteous in his own eyes (32:1), then (4) the rebuke of Elihu which boiled out of him because he saw that Job was justifying himself rather than God, and he saw Job's three friends had condemned him without proof (32:1-3). Then when God stepped in confirming and continuing Elihus's rebuke exclusively toward Job after Elihu had rebuked them all, and then God's anger toward Job's three friends who had not yet repented after Job did repent saying "I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes."

The openings and the summaries of the arguments, and the conclusion, are the keys. The stuff in the middle with Job arguing agaisnt his three friends was four people arguing from two different perspectives and all of them were wrong in their perspectives, and because of that I cringe when people try to build doctrine based on the arguments of Job or his three friends before Job repented.

 

[JesusistheChrist]

Keep in mind the keys of the book as (1)the beginning of the argument which was God boasting of Job and Satan challenging God by saying Job only served God because God blessed and protected him, (2) Job being tried by losing everything except his nagging wife who told him to curse God and die (3) The arguments between Job and his three friends which makes up the bulk of the book (4) Job's summary of his entire argument beginning in 31:35 and finishing when Job in verse 40 said "The words of Job are ended"., which also put an end to his friends arguments when they realized nothing they could say would make Job stop being righteous in his own eyes (32:1), then (4) the rebuke of Elihu which boiled out of him because he saw that Job was justifying himself rather than God, and he saw Job's three friends had condemned him without proof (32:1-3). Then when God stepped in confirming and continuing Elihus's rebuke exclusively toward Job after Elihu had rebuked them all, and then God's anger toward Job's three friends who had not yet repented after Job did repent saying "I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes."

The openings and the summaries of the arguments, and the conclusion, are the keys. The stuff in the middle with Job arguing agaisnt his three friends was four people arguing from two different perspectives and all of them were wrong in their perspectives, and because of that I cringe when people try to build doctrine based on the arguments of Job or his three friends before Job repented.

Hi, SaintJoeNow.

I'm back, but I'm going to wait until tomorrow morning to address this (I'm going to spend some time with my children tonight). I just wanted to say one thing in advance of tomorrow's post:

Seeing how you understand that Job's three friends "condemned" him, I'm trusting that you'll accept the Biblical definition of the word "condemned" as it is used in relation to Job's three friends' comments towards Job to be the same definition that I'll use tomorrow in my attempt to show you that Job "repeatedly condemned God". IOW, we don't just get to arbitrarily assign definitions to words, but we need to let the Bible define terms for us.

Anyhow, I'll talk to you more tomorrow. I'm just going to take a quick peek at some other threads and then I'm done for the night.

Good night.