SAVED BY WORKS

[RickyZ]

I understand that concept of dirty well produces dirty water. But you're not seeing the big picture of what is the well. You think the well is our salvation and that whatever a saved person does good or bad it's clean, while the unsaved's works are dirty no matter how good they are. But the well is not our salvation, it is the sum total of our works. An atheist who otherwise does the things God asks (one can disbelieve in God and do His things anyway) is a clean well from which clean water flows. He's unsaved but his works are good (too bad he's unsaved). A "Christian" who eschews God's commands and lives against them is a dirty well. His works are no good (too bad he's saved?). That's what Paul says here, we're supposed to be clean and produce good works, how can we pollute that well with unclean water?

Your concept is valid, but in this case the application is not.

 

[mailmandan]

It has been shown ad nauseam how EPh 2:9 (and Rom 4:4,5) refers to works of merit and not obedience to God's will..

Salvation by works is not obedience to God's will. John 6:40 - For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. Any works that you "add" to "believes in Him" would be works of merit if they were the means of our salvation. You JUST DON'T GET THAT. That's why Paul made it crystal clear that we are saved through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9); Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us.. (Titus 3:5); He saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began. That covers ALL works, including the works that you are trusting in to save you instead of trusting in CHRIST ALONE to save you. Romans Catholics and Mormons also twist Ephesians 2:8,9 in order to "get around" the truth and force these verses to "conform" to their works based false gospel as well.

Paul already made obedient works a necessity in passages as Rom 6:16-18 and would not turn around and contradict himself, and other bible writers, in EPh 2:9. IF Eph 2:9 eliminates ALL works from being saved then that contradicts the very next verse that requires works.

My goodness. You are so confused! I already explained to you numerous times that Paul was NOT teaching salvation by works in Romans 6:16-18. Paul already said we are not saved by works/not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us/He saved us not according to our works in (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) and would not turn around and contradict himself in Romans 6:16-18. Ephesians 2:9 does eliminate ALL works and Ephesians 2:10 DOES NOT teach that we are saved "by" good works but FOR good works. YOU JUST DON'T GET IT! *There is a reason for that.

Once again, in regards to Romans 6:16-18 and *please pay close attention this time: There are only two kinds of servants/slaves in this world, in the spiritual sense; servants/slaves of sin unto death, or servants/slaves of obedience unto righteousness. When we place our faith exclusively in Christ for salvation/obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel by trusting in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation (Romans 10:16; 1:16), we then become "servants of obedience unto righteousness." Before they obeyed that form of doctrine by choosing to believe the gospel, they had been slaves to sin. Being slaves of sin is put in the past tense. Paul goes on in Romans 6:18 - "You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness. You don't produce multiple works of righteousness in order to become a slave of righteousness but BECAUSE you are a slave of righteousness. You have it backwards. You also continue to ignore "servants of obedience unto righteousness" (Romans 6:16) and simply stresses "obedience unto righteousness" as if works of obedience which follow saving faith in Christ are unto righteousness, as if we are saved by works.

In Rom 10:3 Paul shows those Jews were lost for they 'have not submitted unto the righteousness of God"
You says "Of course Paul did not say that"

I agree with Paul that those Jews were lost because they "have not submitted to the righteousness of God." In verse 4, Paul goes on to explain that to "submit to the righteousness of God" = BELIEVES. Here is what I applied "of course Paul did not say that" to - *YOUR words here that you left out this time from post #230 - "Paul did not say those Jews were saved but then would not submit to God's righteousness. Why did you leave out your words in bold this time from post #230 to make it look like I was disagreeing with Paul? That is not being honest.

So why continue with this when you will not even accept what Paul DID actually say?

I DO accept what Paul actually DID say. It's you who DOES NOT agree so you ADD your own preconceived ideas to the text. Paul clearly said - Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who BELIEVES. Paul clearly explained that submitted to the righteousness of God = BELIEVES. In Philippians 3:9, Paul clearly said ..the righteousness which is of God by FAITH. *NOT WORKS.

When Paul say they would not submit to God's righteousness you say "show me the word "work" or works" in Rom 10:3"

Again, you failed to show me the word "work" or "works" in Romans 10:3. Paul said BELIEVES not works.

Again more denial of reality of what the word submit means.

Paul clearly explained in context that these Jews did not believe in Christ for salvation so they did not submit to the righteousness of God through believing in Him/faith, but instead they were seeking to establish their own righteousness before God on the basis of their works, JUST AS YOU ARE. I know what the word submit means and the context shows that "submit to the righteousness of God" = BELIEVES. Paul did not say submit to salvation by works. That would be seeking to establish your OWN righteousness. Opposite of BELIEVES.

It was also shown Peter said one WORKS God's righteousness to be accepted Acts 10:35 which you also deny.

No, Peter did not say one works God's righteousness as a lost unbeliever in order "to be" accepted. Peter said in every nation whoever fears Him and works righteousness/does what is right (descriptive of those who are saved, not lost) is accepted by Him/is welcome to Him. Again,Peter is not talking about works of righteousness as being the means of salvation here. Paul made it crystal clear that we are not saved by works of righteousness in Titus 3:5. Rather, the question here is whether God's favor is made available to Jews only (partiality - vs. 34) or is now available to Gentiles also (those "in every nation") who fear Him and work righteousness/does what is right (descriptive of Jewish and Gentile Christians). You have closed your eyes to the truth and I see that you avoided answering my questions in post #239. Why do you continue to avoid answering my questions?

(and Peter was speaking to those that were lost, he did NOT say "since God has accepted you because of your faith only you can now start working righteousness)

Peter did not say to them, "start working righteousness and then God will save you based on your works." Peter is simply explaining that God's favor is not made available to Jews only (partiality - vs. 34) but is now available to Gentiles also (those "in every nation") who fear Him and work righteousness/does what is right (descriptive of Jewish and Gentile Christians). Peter leads right up to the message of how one is saved in Acts 10:43 - "To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him will receive remission of sins."

You're denying the plain and obvious so why should I continue with this?

It's actually YOU who is denying the plain and obvious truth because of your UNBELIEF so why should I continue with this?

 

[forsha]

Anyone that chooses to repent can do so. God "granted" repentance in that He has given man the gift of repentance where men can choose to repent if he so chooses. It is NOT a case where man cannot repent unless God first "regenerates" him so he can then repent, that is Calvinism.

Again, the COMMAND to repent, as in Acts 2:38 implies that man has both the ability within himself and the responsibility to obey that command. No miraculous intervention by God is needed.

Jn 6:45 explains HOW men are drawn...."It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Men are drawn when they are taught, hear and learn, then come to Christ. Simply put: God draws, men come.

"Cometh" is middle deponent, men come of their own will and coming to Christ includes that men choose to repent of their own will. Therefore God's drawing is not some "irresistible" drawing where men have no choice.


You posted "no man can repent for it is God that grants someone repentance"

1) If one can only repent if God "grants" him the ability to repent
2) and it is God's will all men come to repentance
3) then why is it all men will not come to repentance with most being lost?

IF God alone can "grant' men the ability to repent and God does not "grant" all men this ability to repent then God is thwarting His own will in all men coming to repentance.

All mankind were born into this world as carnal men, void of the Holy Spirit, unable to discern anything of a spiritual nature(1 Cor 2:14). I know that you have said that those men in 1 Cor 2:14 who could discern spiritual things is restricted to the apostles, and what basis you have to cause you to believe that, I haven't a clue. If The apostles are the only ones who can discern, they can not teach spiritual things to anyone that can not discern spiritual things. Show me the scripture that says the apostles are the only ones that has the ability to discern. When a carnal man is born of the Spirit(Eph 2:1-8) it is regeneration which consist of God taking out the stony heart and replacing it with a fleshly heart(one that can be pricked).Ezek 36:26. In Acts 2:38, These men were already born of the Spirit, because they had a heart that can be pricked, unlike the men that stoned Steven, who were "cut to the heart". When Paul was regenerated on the road to Damaskus, Jesus ask him "why do you kick against the pricks". The carnal man, before he is born of the Spirit does not have the ability to repent. The bible does not have contradicting scriptures and the person who teaches that man's works plays a part in his eternal salvation will have too many contradicting scriptures. There is a salvation(deliverance) that depends entirely upon the good works of man, but those salvations are given while we journey here in this world. If you do not understand that most of the salvation scriptures are pertaining to deliverances here in the world, you will have contradictions, and that knowledge is only comes through the revelation of the Holy Spirit. The term "all men" ,when used in conjunction with eternal salvation, is referring to those people who have already been born again. All men of the elect. All men of the military. All men that are over 21 years old, etc.

 

[forsha]

I do not have the time now to list all the verses that put obedience BEFORE salvation. Yet one verse is Jn 3:16 that puts belief BEFORE salvation and belief is obedience, Jn 3:36, a work, Jn 6:27-29.

Not a single verse say God will save disobedient/unrighteous people who remain in that state. They first must obey/work righteousness THEN they are accepted with God, Acts 10:35; 1 Jn 3:10. It is impossible to get an unrighteous person saved while they contniue to remain in their disobedience/unrighteousness.

John 3:16, The word "world" according to Thayer's Greek interpretation means "used of believers only". World also means the same in John 1:29, 3:17, 6:33, 12:47, 1 Cor 4:9, and 2 Cor 5:19. John 6:29, says that our belief, is not our work, but is the work of God, because before we were regenerated by his grace we could not discern spiritual things. Eph 2:1 says that it is possible to get someone saved when they are unrighteous and dead in sins.

 

[forsha]

Those Jews were lost due to their NOT SUBMITTING/OBEYING God's righteousness. Paul could not have implied it more plainly that obedience/submitting is what would have saved those Jews but they would not obey the gospel.

You avoided this fact that obeying/submitting would have saved these Jews and you run to Rom 1:16 and try to imply "belief only" would have saved them when that verses does not teach such and that idea contradicts Paul saying OBEYING SUBMITTING to God's commands is what would save them.

Those Jews were lost for they would not obey the gospel, would not submit to the gospel. Obeying the gospel requires one do the works of believing, repenting confessing and submitting to baptism.

Nowhere did Paul say those Jews were lost for they did not have "belief only".

But Paul DID say they were lost for not have obedient works in submitting to the commandments of God.

In Romans 10 the Jews were not lost eternally, but were separated from their fellowship with God by trying to establish their own righteousness. They were already saved eternally by the fact that Paul said that they have a "zeal" of God. If they were carnal and void of the Holy Spirit they could not have had a zeal of God because the carnal man can not discern spiritual things nor have a zeal of God.

 

[savedsince14]

No I live a godly life, that's why I know you guys who go around on the forum lecturing others about obedience have no real understanding of true godliness and the folks you guys lecture are in all likelihood living much more in the Will of God than you guys are.

So that's why I keep making the point that getting on a forum and finding a few scriptures about obedience don't mean anything.

Well, since Mitspa says he/she lives a "Godly" life, I guess we ALL need to stop worshipping God or Jesus because Mitspa evidently NEVER sins.So, we need to start worshipping Mitspa because God evidently is a LIAR because He said in His word He sent His "ONLY begotten Son" in Jesus. I thought Jesus is the only person who never sinned, because I sin every day. I don't get away with it because, since I AM saved , God convicts me of it and I ask His forgiveness when I do.By the way,Mitspa, when you said that Paul didn't say that scripture, I suggest you read 1st John 1:8 and also 1st John 1:10 which states,"If we say that we have NOT sinned,we make him a liar,and his word is not in us."As far as the belief of OSAS is concerned, JASON, I am a firm(and I do mean FIRM) believer in it. If our future sins were not paid for on the cross, then you would have had to have been around when Jesus was here. Salvation has a two-fold purpose.One, to pay our sin debt in Hell. The words "sin debt" are not found in the Bible together. But a proper study will reveal this knowledge. Two. to SECURE us a home in heaven. I believe that God knows everything(and I DO mean everything). So, why would a God who knows everything save you and put your name in the book of life if He knows you can't live good enough to keep it there? One of my favorite scriptures for OSAS is Galations 2:22,"For I do not frustrate the grace of God:for if righteousness (the righteousness it takes to get into heaven )come by the law(the works that we do or how we live our lives)then Christ is dead in vain. In other words, if we could live good enough(especially living sinless as some people think)then there was no reason for Christ to come to begin with. There is no such thing as a license to sin taught in the Bible.It's simple. If we could lose our salvation because of one sin, then we would have to stay on our knees praying all the time because of the bad thoughts we have.We wouldn't have time to do anything wrong or say anything wrong.Nobody will ever convince me that they don't sin,or that salvation can be lost.I have been in discussions with a lot of people over OSAS and not one of them has proven it wrong with a proper study of the scripture.My name on here is what it is for a reason. Savedsince 14 means exactly that. I have been saved since I was 14 and I will be 53 at the end of March.Not one time have I ever lost it. I have sinned since then, But God has forgiven me of all of it. And when you are referring to future sins I don't know what they are or when I will do them. But God does because He sees everything. HE even knows if I will die or go up in the rapture(another word people mention that is not in the Bible). Yes, it is true ,we are to try not to yield to temptation, and we HAVE to have Christ's help to do so, But God does already know what we will do. That's why our sins (past, present and future) were forgiven in God's eyes.He knew what my sins would be BEFORE I was even born. I don't expect people to believe the way I do. But I'm also not ashamed of my belief and am not afraid to share it with anyone. God bless

 

[Mitspa]

Well, since Mitspa says he/she lives a "Godly" life, I guess we ALL need to stop worshipping God or Jesus because Mitspa evidently NEVER sins.So, we need to start worshipping Mitspa because God evidently is a LIAR because He said in His word He sent His "ONLY begotten Son" in Jesus. I thought Jesus is the only person who never sinned, because I sin every day. I don't get away with it because, since I AM saved , God convicts me of it and I ask His forgiveness when I do.By the way,Mitspa, when you said that Paul didn't say that scripture, I suggest you read 1st John 1:8 and also 1st John 1:10 which states,"If we say that we have NOT sinned,we make him a liar,and his word is not in us."As far as the belief of OSAS is concerned, JASON, I am a firm(and I do mean FIRM) believer in it. If our future sins were not paid for on the cross, then you would have had to have been around when Jesus was here. Salvation has a two-fold purpose.One, to pay our sin debt in Hell. The words "sin debt" are not found in the Bible together. But a proper study will reveal this knowledge. Two. to SECURE us a home in heaven. I believe that God knows everything(and I DO mean everything). So, why would a God who knows everything save you and put your name in the book of life if He knows you can't live good enough to keep it there? One of my favorite scriptures for OSAS is Galations 2:22,"For I do not frustrate the grace of God:for if righteousness (the righteousness it takes to get into heaven )come by the law(the works that we do or how we live our lives)then Christ is dead in vain. In other words, if we could live good enough(especially living sinless as some people think)then there was no reason for Christ to come to begin with. There is no such thing as a license to sin taught in the Bible.It's simple. If we could lose our salvation because of one sin, then we would have to stay on our knees praying all the time because of the bad thoughts we have.We wouldn't have time to do anything wrong or say anything wrong.Nobody will ever convince me that they don't sin,or that salvation can be lost.I have been in discussions with a lot of people over OSAS and not one of them has proven it wrong with a proper study of the scripture.My name on here is what it is for a reason. Savedsince 14 means exactly that. I have been saved since I was 14 and I will be 53 at the end of March.Not one time have I ever lost it. I have sinned since then, But God has forgiven me of all of it. And when you are referring to future sins I don't know what they are or when I will do them. But God does because He sees everything. HE even knows if I will die or go up in the rapture(another word people mention that is not in the Bible). Yes, it is true ,we are to try not to yield to temptation, and we HAVE to have Christ's help to do so, But God does already know what we will do. That's why our sins (past, present and future) were forgiven in God's eyes.He knew what my sins would be BEFORE I was even born. I don't expect people to believe the way I do. But I'm also not ashamed of my belief and am not afraid to share it with anyone. God bless

2Co 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

 

[notuptome]

I understand that concept of dirty well produces dirty water. But you're not seeing the big picture of what is the well. You think the well is our salvation and that whatever a saved person does good or bad it's clean, while the unsaved's works are dirty no matter how good they are. But the well is not our salvation, it is the sum total of our works. An atheist who otherwise does the things God asks (one can disbelieve in God and do His things anyway) is a clean well from which clean water flows. He's unsaved but his works are good (too bad he's unsaved). A "Christian" who eschews God's commands and lives against them is a dirty well. His works are no good (too bad he's saved?). That's what Paul says here, we're supposed to be clean and produce good works, how can we pollute that well with unclean water?

Your concept is valid, but in this case the application is not.

Jesus in Luke 11:13 presents an interesting observation. Jesus says "If ye then, being evil know how to give good gifts unto your children.....Good gifts from evil people. The evil gifts are good even though the people are evil and the good gifts do not make the givers good.

There is nothing good in any man apart from Christ. We have all gone out of the way and become unprofitable. Romans 1,2 and 3 are a summation of what men are.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[RickyZ]

Jesus in Luke 11:13 presents an interesting observation. Jesus says "If ye then, being evil know how to give good gifts unto your children.....Good gifts from evil people. The evil gifts are good even though the people are evil and the good gifts do not make the givers good.

Exactly. Thanks for making my point.

 

[posthuman]

certain fish say "o it's a different kind of works"

i'll say it's a different kind of work -- it's the work of God, not of men, that saves!

i would pat him on the back, because it looks like what he really wants is pats on the back, but his is spiny, and i'd probably injure my hand.

 

[savedsince14]

2Co 10:18 For not he that commendeth himself is approved, but whom the Lord commendeth.

Correction. You mean,"but whom Mitspa commendeth."since you claim YOU don't sin. I don't commend myself. I am NOTHING and NOBODY without the Lord. What I stated is what the Lord has taught me from studying and applying HIS word and not believing what man has to say. I need God every day. He saved me and HE is the one keeping me. By saying YOU live a so-called "Godly life" ,you are commending yourself. You talked about people on here quoting and using scripture but no other evidence of them living a "Godly" life, how are you going to know if you can't see how they live? Talk about judging. I guarantee you if your thoughts were broadcast on a tv screen,You wouldn't be as perfect or sinless as you proclaim.And by claiming you live a "Godly" life means you ARE calling God a liar. So, just keep the perfect, sinless messiah complex as long as you want to. God WILL show you one day otherwise. And, as far as OSAS goes, people will be arguing about that until the Lord comes. I would hate to live every day being afraid I was going to sin and lose my salvation because of it. I would have to be on my knees(as would everyone else) asking for forgiveness and salvation over and over and over again. In fact noone would be able to STOP asking for forgiveness and salvation over and over and over again. Noone would be able to eat, take a shower,Or anything else for all the sinful thoughts we would have if(and I DO mean IF) salvation could be lost. Salvation has to do with the soul,not the flesh. The way we live our lives shows the evidence of our salvation, not to get it or keep it. If people would STUDY the scripture, not just read a verse or two and take it literal, they would find ,as I have, that a lot of what they believe is not right. Again I am NOT commending myself, But to GOD be the glory and honor forever.AMEN.

 

[Jason0047]

Forced Love:

Now, if you believe in "Eternal Security" or "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved) you believe God saves you and that there is nothing you could ever do that could jeopardize your standing with Him. That once you accept God, you are then forced into a relationship that you can't break out of. You are trapped. Your free will is no longer. You can't leave. Once you check in, you can't check out. God has forced His love upon you because of your one choice to believe in Him for your salvation.

Such a notion sounds absolutely ridiculous. But this is what you must believe if your a proponent of "Eternal Security". I mean, have you ever watched one of those movies about a girl who had a crush on a guy, which quickly turned into a forceful or twisted relationship? You know, the movie where boy meets girl, but the boy loses interest, yet the girl doesn't and therefore she forces her love upon him. So things get pretty dark and twisted. This is exactly what proponents of "Eternal Security" have done with God. They have made God out to be this woman who had forced her love upon a man who didn't want her love anymore.

In fact, do you remember the story of David and Bathsheba? David wanted to keep the forbidden love of another man's wife. So he forced a relationship of what he believed to be love by killing her husband (Uriah) so he could be with her in the way that he wanted (or loved). Veritably, there is no doubt in my mind that David might have even loved Bathsheba. However, it was not a love that was his. So David tried to force love in a way that was not natural or good (by permanently eliminating the will of another) (2 Samuel 11:1-27). For that is exactly what "Eternal Security" does. It sets up a loving relationship as if it was something that had to be forced. That once you are saved, you are always saved (no matter what you do or even if you change your mind). Such a notion goes against all logic of what we know about free will and true love.

 

[BradC]

Forced Love:

Now, if you believe in "Eternal Security" or "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved) you believe God saves you and that there is nothing you could ever do that could jeopardize your standing with Him. That once you accept God, you are then forced into a relationship that you can't break out of. You are trapped. Your free will is no longer. You can't leave. Once you check in, you can't check out. God has forced His love upon you because of your one choice to believe in Him for your salvation.

Such a notion sounds absolutely ridiculous. But this is what you must believe if your a proponent of "Eternal Security". I mean, have you ever watched one of those movies about a girl who had a crush on a guy, which quickly turned into a forceful or twisted relationship? You know, the movie where boy meets girl, but the boy loses interest, yet the girl doesn't and therefore she forces her love upon him. So things get pretty dark and twisted. This is exactly what proponents of "Eternal Security" have done with God. They have made God out to be this woman who had forced her love upon a man who didn't want her love anymore.

In fact, do you remember the story of David and Bathsheba? David wanted to keep the forbidden love of another man's wife. So he forced a relationship of what he believed to be love by killing her husband (Uriah) so he could be with her in the way that he wanted (or loved). Veritably, there is no doubt in my mind that David might have even loved Bathsheba. However, it was not a love that was his. So David tried to force love in a way that was not natural or good (by permanently eliminating the will of another) (2 Samuel 11:1-27). For that is exactly what "Eternal Security" does. It sets up a loving relationship as if it was something that had to be forced. That once you are saved, you are always saved (no matter what you do or even if you change your mind). Such a notion goes against all logic of what we know about free will and true love.

You have a very strange faith.

 

[MarcR]

Forced Love:

Now, if you believe in "Eternal Security" or "OSAS" (Once Saved Always Saved) you believe God saves you and that there is nothing you could ever do that could jeopardize your standing with Him. That once you accept God, you are then forced into a relationship that you can't break out of. You are trapped. Your free will is no longer. You can't leave. Once you check in, you can't check out. God has forced His love upon you because of your one choice to believe in Him for your salvation.

Such a notion sounds absolutely ridiculous. But this is what you must believe if your a proponent of "Eternal Security". I mean, have you ever watched one of those movies about a girl who had a crush on a guy, which quickly turned into a forceful or twisted relationship? You know, the movie where boy meets girl, but the boy loses interest, yet the girl doesn't and therefore she forces her love upon him. So things get pretty dark and twisted. This is exactly what proponents of "Eternal Security" have done with God. They have made God out to be this woman who had forced her love upon a man who didn't want her love anymore.

In fact, do you remember the story of David and Bathsheba? David wanted to keep the forbidden love of another man's wife. So he forced a relationship of what he believed to be love by killing her husband (Uriah) so he could be with her in the way that he wanted (or loved). Veritably, there is no doubt in my mind that David might have even loved Bathsheba. However, it was not a love that was his. So David tried to force love in a way that was not natural or good (by permanently eliminating the will of another) (2 Samuel 11:1-27). For that is exactly what "Eternal Security" does. It sets up a loving relationship as if it was something that had to be forced. That once you are saved, you are always saved (no matter what you do or even if you change your mind). Such a notion goes against all logic of what we know about free will and true love.

Nobody I know who believes in OSAS would draw that conclusion!


The word Lord means owner. Accepting Jesus as Lord includes accepting that His sacrifice on the Cross was your purchase price. If you buy a used car and it breaks down, it doesn't cease to be yours. True, if you buy a used car, you can sell it or give it away; but if you are honest and promise that car "I will never leave you or forsake you" then you are stuck with your purchase.

 

[Jason0047]

You have a very strange faith.

To the Antinomian or certain OSAS proponents: -

1 Peter 4:4
"Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:"

 

[Mitspa]

Correction. You mean,"but whom Mitspa commendeth."since you claim YOU don't sin. I don't commend myself. I am NOTHING and NOBODY without the Lord. What I stated is what the Lord has taught me from studying and applying HIS word and not believing what man has to say. I need God every day. He saved me and HE is the one keeping me. By saying YOU live a so-called "Godly life" ,you are commending yourself. You talked about people on here quoting and using scripture but no other evidence of them living a "Godly" life, how are you going to know if you can't see how they live? Talk about judging. I guarantee you if your thoughts were broadcast on a tv screen,You wouldn't be as perfect or sinless as you proclaim.And by claiming you live a "Godly" life means you ARE calling God a liar. So, just keep the perfect, sinless messiah complex as long as you want to. God WILL show you one day otherwise. And, as far as OSAS goes, people will be arguing about that until the Lord comes. I would hate to live every day being afraid I was going to sin and lose my salvation because of it. I would have to be on my knees(as would everyone else) asking for forgiveness and salvation over and over and over again. In fact noone would be able to STOP asking for forgiveness and salvation over and over and over again. Noone would be able to eat, take a shower,Or anything else for all the sinful thoughts we would have if(and I DO mean IF) salvation could be lost. Salvation has to do with the soul,not the flesh. The way we live our lives shows the evidence of our salvation, not to get it or keep it. If people would STUDY the scripture, not just read a verse or two and take it literal, they would find ,as I have, that a lot of what they believe is not right. Again I am NOT commending myself, But to GOD be the glory and honor forever.AMEN.

What, do you live a ungodly life? Why would that offend you, for a godly man to say they live a godly life?

 

[MarcR]

Nobody I know who believes in OSAS would draw that conclusion!


The word Lord means owner. Accepting Jesus as Lord includes accepting that His sacrifice on the Cross was your purchase price. If you buy a used car and it breaks down, it doesn't cease to be yours. True, if you buy a used car, you can sell it or give it away; but if you are honest and promise that car "I will never leave you or forsake you" then you are stuck with your purchase.

Likewise If you sell a car and sign over the title, there is no way you can demand it back. Likewise if you acknowledge the Lord's ownership you are no longer your own.

If you are truly saved there is no way you would want to terminate His ownership; and if you want to terminate His ownership, that is proof that you were NEVER His.

 

[Jason0047]

Nobody I know who believes in OSAS would draw that conclusion!


The word Lord means owner. Accepting Jesus as Lord includes accepting that His sacrifice on the Cross was your purchase price. If you buy a used car and it breaks down, it doesn't cease to be yours. True, if you buy a used car, you can sell it or give it away; but if you are honest and promise that car "I will never leave you or forsake you" then you are stuck with your purchase.

You are not looking at all of Scripture and all the examples of what reality have to say, my friend.

For one, gifts can be destroyed and forsaken by either one's choice and or negligence. In other words, a person can receive a free car (tax free) as a gift; But if they run red lights, text while drive, hit people on the road, and drink n' drive, then their car (Which is a free gift) is going to be taken from them.

Second, 2 Peter 2:20-21 says, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." Meaning, only a believer can escape the pollutions of the world thru the knowledge of Jesus. Only a believer can be entangled again. Only a believer can experience the latter end being worse for them than the beginning (with them being a sinner before accepting Jesus). The same line of thinking is said in Hebrews 10:26, 38. Verse 26 says, "For if we sin willfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Verse 38 says, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

 

[Mitspa]

You are not looking at all of Scripture and all the examples of what reality have to say, my friend.

For one, gifts can be destroyed and forsaken by either one's choice and or negligence. In other words, a person can receive a free car (tax free) as a gift; But if they run red lights, text while drive, hit people on the road, and drink n' drive, then their car (Which is a free gift) is going to be taken from them.

Second, 2 Peter 2:20-21 says, "For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning." Meaning, only a believer can escape the pollutions of the world thru the knowledge of Jesus. Only a believer can be entangled again. Only a believer can experience the latter end being worse for them than the beginning (with them being a sinner before accepting Jesus). The same line of thinking is said in Hebrews 10:26, 38. Verse 26 says, "For if we sin willfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." Verse 38 says, "Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him."

Jason...Peter is speaking of those who turn from the righteousness of faith back to the law..."the strength of sin"

They have forsaken the "way of righteousness" that's faith, back to the law.
"cursed children" , ye who seek to be justified by the law are under its curse.

Clearly Peter is talking about those who turn from grace back to the law.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason...Peter is speaking of those who turn from the righteousness of faith back to the law..."the strength of sin"

They have forsaken the "way of righteousness" that's faith, back to the law.
"cursed children" , ye who seek to be justified by the law are under its curse.

Clearly Peter is talking about those who turn from grace back to the law.

No, my friend. Look at the passages again. It doesn't say or even suggest that. 2 Peter 2:20 says they escaped the pollutions of the world thru the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Hebrews 10:26 says if we willfully sin AFTER we have received the knowledge of the Truth (i.e. Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the life).