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M
Yet again a refusal to answer the question - why you (that is protestant groups) cannot agree any central areas of doctrine on for example salvation, where you dispute on OSAS with at least two other views expressed by other protestants.
That is the issue DC , and since you cannot answer the question on why disputes, you slip back into the forum comfort zone of attacking others, generally RCC.
Sad. Anyway, I have made the point, and Luther made it even more forcibly. He regretted having started the fracture of doctrine into 1000 pieces as every man woman and dog believed they then had the right to decide their "own" interpretation. That is a problem. The problem is a lack of authority.
And indeed, you all do put the teachings of men above scripture because generally the authority is the head pastor or teaching pastor for a denomination, or in many cases a congregation, and for the non denominationals the authority became themselves: which was what Luther hated, and said so.
M
This thread is not about RCC, so off topic and erroneous attacks on RCC are irrelevant here.
(But you would be better off studying RCC if you want to criticise it because you are way off base (like most criticise) on what it believes - it does not believe in salvation by works, but in salvation by grace through faith, the catechism says so!)
Back to the subject, I can only repeate nowhere does the bible say "scripture alone", which is biblically, logically and historically false, all of which is easily demonstrable. As I pointed out it says the pillar of truth is the church, so to ignore what it does say, and then invent "sola scriptura" you have the problem with hermeneutics!
Indeed you hit upon an important issue Jesus said "i am the truth" and that truth was passed not initially by scripture at all, but by tradition (which means something handed down) passed from apostles on. Sola scriptura makes no sense in the context of the early church, but as the scripture I pointed out shows, the "the truth" was passed on by the church, not scripture, which is a historical fact, and why that scripture sasys the church is the pillar of truth. Proper hermeneutics, rather than inventing sola scriptura.
But you are not united about how you are saved as every OSAS thread proves there are several distinct interpretations of salvation, on this forum and amongst post reformation denominations, as there are on almost every point of doctrine, so clearly hermeneutics is failing to give a unified interpretation.
The process of interpretation has clearly failed the post reformation churches.
It is a problem which Luther recognised as lack of authorityu, or indeed anyone becoming authority.
I have said it several times now. Those who will listen will llisten. Most will go back to attacking RCC for the simple reason of no consistency in any other doctrine, as the only thing you unite on.
Sad, God bless.
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It seems you like to attack (FIND FAULT) those who are not RCC!! SAD!!
Purgatory for example is a belief that came along after the bible. A person is supposed to go to purgatory to be cleansed of their sins, in order to enter Heaven. The convert sins in the flesh, yet the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven(1Cor15:50) So why does the flesh need to be cleansed of sin to enter Heaven? It isn't going there!
Purgatory for example is a belief that came along after the bible. A person is supposed to go to purgatory to be cleansed of their sins, in order to enter Heaven. The convert sins in the flesh, yet the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of Heaven(1Cor15:50) So why does the flesh need to be cleansed of sin to enter Heaven? It isn't going there!
Yahshua is the truth. That is Yahweh's Word, with or without tradition.
roman abomination says Yahshua is not the truth. they crucify Yahshua every day again and again and again in their heresy and demonic practices and doctrines.
THAT is why all the other groups are UNITED against the rcc - the rcc is demonic heresy, not truth at all.
THAT is why ALL groups are UNITED AGAINST the devil, hasatan, duh.... same reason.
you have given tradition more power than Yahweh's Word - demonically with the lies of the rcc.
your tradition and the tradition of the rcc is evil, wicked, murderous and wrong on all counts.
AS you trust tradition that opposes Yahweh's Word, THAT is why everyone who loves TRUTH (JESUS) is AGAINST YOU. EVERYONE.
roman abomination says Yahshua is not the truth. they crucify Yahshua every day again and again and again in their heresy and demonic practices and doctrines.
THAT is why all the other groups are UNITED against the rcc - the rcc is demonic heresy, not truth at all.
THAT is why ALL groups are UNITED AGAINST the devil, hasatan, duh.... same reason.
you have given tradition more power than Yahweh's Word - demonically with the lies of the rcc.
your tradition and the tradition of the rcc is evil, wicked, murderous and wrong on all counts.
AS you trust tradition that opposes Yahweh's Word, THAT is why everyone who loves TRUTH (JESUS) is AGAINST YOU. EVERYONE.
Attack on the RCC is NOT off topic. The topic is Bible interpretation. The Authority of Scripture is essential to Bible interpretation. RCC heresy or anyone else's heresy in putting the teachings of men equal to or above Scripture MUST BE ATTACKED every time it appears! It is not personally directed at you. It is directed at how one should approach Bible interpretation. I, and those who are like-minded would respond in the same way to the Russell's Whitlessness, the Mormons, or anyone else who put the teachings of men equal or above Scripture.
E
Now those who know me know I am not a "fan" of the RCC but Mikeuk is correct. This is not just an RCC problem. There are many false teachers spread throughout every denomination. The Holy Spirit is the only person who can tell us correct interpretation from false interpretation so we must constantly pray to Him for guidance. That is how we can know truth from lies.
There are many with in the RCC, as in any other denomination, that know Christ as Lord and Savior. There are also many in the RCC, as in any other denomination, that don't know Christ as Lord and Savior. Instead of "looking" for differences as the the body of Christ shouldn't we be joining in the Gospel and preaching the Gospel? Sure we will disagree on certain areas but if we have the true Gospel in common should we not rally around that? The Gospel of Christ is the foundation of our faith but the other areas are what we would rather argue about. It's no wonder that non believers don't want to attend church as we would rather argue on kneeling or staying during prayer than joining together to spread the Gospel of Christ.
The Gospel of Christ never changes but we will change it to "fit our needs".
There are many with in the RCC, as in any other denomination, that know Christ as Lord and Savior. There are also many in the RCC, as in any other denomination, that don't know Christ as Lord and Savior. Instead of "looking" for differences as the the body of Christ shouldn't we be joining in the Gospel and preaching the Gospel? Sure we will disagree on certain areas but if we have the true Gospel in common should we not rally around that? The Gospel of Christ is the foundation of our faith but the other areas are what we would rather argue about. It's no wonder that non believers don't want to attend church as we would rather argue on kneeling or staying during prayer than joining together to spread the Gospel of Christ.
The Gospel of Christ never changes but we will change it to "fit our needs".
C
The Bible foretold that after the death of the apostles, wrong teachings and unchristian practices would slowly come into the Christian congregation. Men would draw away believers to follow them instead of Christ. (Matthew 7:15, 21-23; Acts 20:29, 30) That is why we see so many different religions that claim to be Christian. Thus that is why there are so many explanations for what should be a “singular truth”.
the teachers all say to test everything by scripture. roman rcc always fails. the doctrines, not the individuals. it is if the individuals bring the doctrine they are in heresy. if they come to learn the truth, they may be set free from the heresy. same with mormon, jw, etc...
it is also written that in that day no one will teach another... so perhaps that day is near, or ekklesia already are learning directly from abba as yahshua said .
in any case, ekklesia are few. there absolutely are not many in the rcc, and not very many in most places.
it is also written that in that day no one will teach another... so perhaps that day is near, or ekklesia already are learning directly from abba as yahshua said .
in any case, ekklesia are few. there absolutely are not many in the rcc, and not very many in most places.
Again... this is where you are at error. 2Tim.3:16-17 doesn't say Scripture is sufficient as a sole rule of faith, no matter how much you want it too. As I stated in post 73, page 4 of this thread. It only claims Scripture is "profitable" (Greek: ophelimos) that is, "Helpful". Once again, many things can be profitable for moving one toward a goal, without being sufficient in getting one to the goal. Please read it again and notice that the passage nowhere even hints that Scripture is "sufficient"—which is, of course, exactly what you think/want the passage to mean.
Now when quoting 2Tim.3:16-17, I just can't understand how you (and others) don't see that in these passages that Paul is laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of "Scripture and tradition" in his ministry as a bishop.
Paul says, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:14–17).
And again there is vs. 14, and 2Tim.1:13-14; passages you all seem to be convenietly ignoring!!! In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry.
So, as I said before, the belief that "Sola Scriptura" ( bible alone) is sufficient as a sole rule of faith is not only untrue.... but un-biblical! Again, if you disagree, prove me wrong with a verse that states otherwise! Minus 2Tim.3:16-17 due to the fact I have showed it does not.
Pax Christi
"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ----Luke 1:48.
Now when quoting 2Tim.3:16-17, I just can't understand how you (and others) don't see that in these passages that Paul is laying down a guideline for Timothy to make use of "Scripture and tradition" in his ministry as a bishop.
Paul says, "But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; and that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God (Greek: theopneustos = "God-breathed"), and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works" (2 Tim. 3:14–17).
And again there is vs. 14, and 2Tim.1:13-14; passages you all seem to be convenietly ignoring!!! In verse 14, Timothy is initially exhorted to hold to the oral teachings—the traditions—that he received from the apostle Paul. This echoes Paul’s reminder of the value of oral tradition in 1:13–14, "Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (RSV), and ". . . what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2:2). Here Paul refers exclusively to oral teaching and reminds Timothy to follow that as the "pattern" for his own teaching (1:13). Only after this is Scripture mentioned as "profitable" for Timothy’s ministry.
So, as I said before, the belief that "Sola Scriptura" ( bible alone) is sufficient as a sole rule of faith is not only untrue.... but un-biblical! Again, if you disagree, prove me wrong with a verse that states otherwise! Minus 2Tim.3:16-17 due to the fact I have showed it does not.
Pax Christi
"From henceforth, all generations shall call me Blessed." ----Luke 1:48.