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K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#361
#361
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.




Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:




1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.




1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.




2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.




Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#362
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#362
kennethcadwell said:
Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.




Romans 2:7
To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:




1 Timothy 4:8
For bodily exercise profiteth little: but godliness is profitable unto all things, having promise of the life that now is, and of that which is to come.




1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.




1 Timothy 6:19
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.




2 Timothy 2:10
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


Titus 1:2
In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;




Titus 3:7
That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.




1 Peter 1:4-5
to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.




1 Peter 1:9
Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.




1 Peter 5:10
But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.




2 Peter 1:10-11
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.




Jude 1:21
Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
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I believe many of these verses here are talking about the final stage of our salvation (Glorification - Which is going home to be wiith Him in His place of glory forever). 1 John 5:13 makes it clear we can have an assurance of salvation in the present moment right now (Which would be Justification / Sanctification). However, I agree that we must keep ourselves in the love of God. I agree that we must make our call and election sure, and fight the good fight of faith, and continue in well doing patiently (As you pointed out in the Scriptures above). Thank you, my brother.
 
K

kennethcadwell

Guest
#363
#363
Jason0047 said:
I believe many of these verses here are talking about the final stage of our salvation (Glorification - Which is going home to be wiith Him in His place of glory forever). 1 John 5:13 makes it clear we can have an assurance of salvation in the present moment right now (Which would be Justification / Sanctification). However, I agree that we must keep ourselves in the love of God. I agree that we must make our call and election sure, and fight the good fight of faith, and continue in well doing patiently (As you pointed out in the Scriptures above). Thank you, my brother.
Click to expand...


Yes I agree with the bold and underlined that you said.
We can have assurance of receiving salvation right here and now, but assurance of it is different then actual physical possession of it that some have been teaching. Nowhere in the bible does it say actual physical possession of it is ours right here and now. If that was the case then we would all already be changed in that twinkling of an eye, and be caught up into our spiritual bodies and be with the Lord.
Even the first scripture posted from Paul says our salvation is nearer then when we first believed, how can something be nearer if we already have possession of it? It is because we have mental assurance of receiving it now, but physical possession comes at the resurrection a.k.a gathering to be with the Lord in the air.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#364
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#364
kennethcadwell said:
Yes I agree with the bold and underlined that you said.
We can have assurance of receiving salvation right here and now, but assurance of it is different then actual physical possession of it that some have been teaching. Nowhere in the bible does it say actual physical possession of it is ours right here and now. If that was the case then we would all already be changed in that twinkling of an eye, and be caught up into our spiritual bodies and be with the Lord.
Even the first scripture posted from Paul says our salvation is nearer then when we first believed, how can something be nearer if we already have possession of it? It is because we have mental assurance of receiving it now, but physical possession comes at the resurrection a.k.a gathering to be with the Lord in the air.
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If a believer has an assurance of salvation then that means they are saved presently and they sit in heavenly high places with Christ because they are one IN Him. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). We have life by abiding in the Son. Immortality or Eternal Life is an exclusive property of God. For Christ alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Being saved in Christ (Thru confession / repentance of sin and accepting Christ) is Justification.

Sanctification is the process that follows Justification. It is God (Christ) doing the good work in the believer. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith; And we cannot do any work without Christ.

Glorification is the End process by which we go home to be with Him in His place of glory for all eternity. He is saving us from our old existence. He is saving to be with Him in His place of glory. In that sense we are being saved. But we were already saved spiritually by abiding in Christ before Glorification. Hence, why we have an assurance of salvation. In other words, in order to possess an assurance of something, you need to possess it now.

To put it to you another way, if I have an assurance that somebody loves me, I would need to know they loved me now and not at some point in the future.
 
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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#365
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#365
Jason0047 said:
If a believer has an assurance of salvation then that means they are saved presently and they sit in heavenly high places with Christ because they are one IN Him. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). We have life by abiding in the Son. Immortality or Eternal Life is an exclusive property of God. For Christ alone possesses immortality (1 Timothy 6:16). Jesus is the way the truth and the life. Being saved in Christ (Thru confession / repentance of sin and accepting Christ) is Justification.

Sanctification is the process that follows Justification. It is God (Christ) doing the good work in the believer. For Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith; And we cannot do any work without Christ.

Glorification is the End process by which we go home to be with Him in His place of glory for all eternity. He is saving us from our old existence. He is saving to be with Him in His place of glory. In that sense we are being saved. But we were already saved spiritually by abiding in Christ before Glorification. Hence, why we have an assurance of salvation. In other words, in order to possess an assurance of something, you need to possess it now.

To put it to you another way, if I have an assurance that somebody loves me, I would need to know they loved me now and not at some point in the future.
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In other words, if somebody asked me if I was saved or lost. I would say I was saved. Saved by the grace of God thru faith and not of works (Even though I know a true faith will naturally bring forth works to show that it is a true faith or in the fact that one has been saved).

I wouldn't say I was going to be saved (Even though I know there is a final stage, step or completion of my salvation, i.e. Glorification). For if I said that, then it would imply I was not saved currently. But I am saved in this present moment, though. Hence, why I have an assurance of salvation.
 
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Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#366
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#366
For each step of salvation involves salvation.

Justification =
Present moment of salvation (Which is the gift of God).

Sanctification =
Continued Salvation. This is the Natural Result of Justification. It is the Refining Process of God Working in you (Whereby you conform to His image and destroy the works of the devil).

Glorification =
Final Stage of Continued Salvation. This is the Natural Result of Sanctification (Which came from Justification). It is a being saved from our old existence so as to be with Him in His place of glory.
 
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savedsince14

Guest
#367
#367
Jason0047 said:
Because God has to honor His Word. If a person responds to the gospel and repents according to God's Word, then the Lord must be faithful to His Word and give that person life. If a person later chooses to reject God's promises within His Word, then that is on them and not God. It is their choice. We always have a free will choice to choose God or not to choose God. See, OSAS is just an offshoot of Calvinism. OSAS didn't' come about until Calvinism. Calvinism says free will does not exist at all. OSAS says free will does not exist after you believe in Jesus Christ.

Deuteronomy 30:19 essentially says he sets before the OT believer life and death and he desires them to choose life. This also applies to the NT believer, as well.
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So, your God DOESN'T know everything,ISN'T almighty, and will WILLINGLY take back His salvation if you want to give it back. I haver never heard of anybody after they have gotten saved ever say anything about wanting to give it back. Judas was never saved to begin with . Just because he followed Jesus don't mean he was saved. Jesus knew who and what Judas was to begin with, which is why He said,"that the scripture might be fullfilled." Rejecting God means rejecting salvation and not being saved to begin with. Your statement of forfeiting or giving back salvation tells me that your god doesn't know if you're going to do that or not.Would your earthly father disown you, as God would have to if salvation could be given back, if you did not do something he said to do?Of course not. So, God doesn't disown His children either. OSAS does not say freewill doesn't exist.If we did not still have a free will after salvation, then we would be robots obeying God without question or resistance. Obedience after salvation is to prove to the world that we are saved because they can't see our spirit. And also to try to help others become believers. The purposes of salvation are clear. First, to accept Jesus's payment for all our sins past,present, AND future( because we weren't around when Jesus was , so all our sins were future) so we don't have to pay for them ourselves in hell. Second, to SECURE us a home in heaven that we NEVER, NEVER,NEVER, EVER have to worry about losing. So, the God that I worship from the King James Bible loves me that much. God gives salvation and God keeps us saved because HE's the one who has to do the saving to begin with and He keeps me saved because He knows I can't live good enough to keep it myself. And I have never ONCE wanted to give it back.
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#368
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#368
savedsince14 said:
So, your God DOESN'T know everything,ISN'T almighty, and will WILLINGLY take back His salvation if you want to give it back. I haver never heard of anybody after they have gotten saved ever say anything about wanting to give it back.
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First, I believe in the God in the Bible who is Holy and just as the Scriptures say. If God were to condone your belief in allowing a believer to sin and still be saved, then the Lord would be condoning His people to do evil. That's just not possible because God is good. In other words, would you be a good parent if you let your kids do whatever evil they liked? No, of course not.

Second, there are many examples in Scripture of believers who chosen sin over God and things did not end well for them.

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:


































And here is a list of potential fallen believers:





  • Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)















  • Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)









  • The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
    (James 5:19, 20)


For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Judas was never saved to begin with.
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If that is true then Jesus chose someone who was a devil, evil and unholy to be in one of the highest offices of the church and to represent his holy and good Kingdom (1 Corinthians 12:28). If such were the case, then Jesus would have violated Scripture (See 1 Timothy 3).

Just because he followed Jesus don't mean he was saved. Jesus knew who and what Judas was to begin with, which is why He said,"that the scripture might be fullfilled." Rejecting God means rejecting salvation and not being saved to begin with.
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No, in John 17, the Father gives the 12 to Jesus. But Jesus did not keep them all. He lost one fo them, who was Judas. In order to lose something, you have to have it first. The Father gave all 12 to Jesus. But one became lost to him. In other words, you cannot lose a book I own, unless I actually give it to you to borrow or unless you took it yourself.

Your statement of forfeiting or giving back salvation tells me that your god doesn't know if you're going to do that or not.Would your earthly father disown you, as God would have to if salvation could be given back, if you did not do something he said to do?Of course not. So, God doesn't disown His children either. OSAS does not say freewill doesn't exist.If we did not still have a free will after salvation, then we would be robots obeying God without question or resistance. Obedience after salvation is to prove to the world that we are saved because they can't see our spirit. And also to try to help others become believers. The purposes of salvation are clear. First, to accept Jesus's payment for all our sins past,present, AND future( because we weren't around when Jesus was , so all our sins were future) so we don't have to pay for them ourselves in hell. Second, to SECURE us a home in heaven that we NEVER, NEVER,NEVER, EVER have to worry about losing. So, the God that I worship from the King James Bible loves me that much. God gives salvation and God keeps us saved because HE's the one who has to do the saving to begin with and He keeps me saved because He knows I can't live good enough to keep it myself. And I have never ONCE wanted to give it back.
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Would you not disown your son if he was out to do horrible and evil things in this world? What if he was Hitler? What if he was someone who had killed your entire family and he wanted to kill you? You know... sort of like a Michael Myers? Would you still really consider him your son? Pure evil? I don't think so.

Also, you agree that a believer has free will after salvation but yet you deny that there is any possibility that they can ever refuse God, though. That implies there is no more free will. Without the ability to reject God, then there is no more free will. Do you understand, my friend.

As for your beliefs about never losing your salvation: Have you ever examined what the Scriptures say about OSAS? Have you even once considered it and examined the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not? Or do you not want to see it?
 
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J

Jeff_56

Banned
#369
Dec 26, 2014
3,757
19
0
#369
since the number of people whose names are not in the book of life,

far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far far x10000 x10000

EXCEEDS the number of people whose names are in the book of life, give or take +/- 3.4%, **

it would behoove

everyone to double check themselves that their name is in the book of life, before they die, and

actually, turn to yahweh TODAY while it is still called TODAY, while it is still possible....



** verified by gabreels accounting service, divine.

(along with Noah's population survey; in which 8 people all together on earth were saved. only 8).

(don't forget s and g)
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#370
Apr 7, 2014
25,316
13,277
113
58
#370
Jason0047 said:
Like Judas. He also drew back and become a son of perdition (or a devil).
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Judas drew back and did not believe to the saving of the soul. Jesus clearly stated in John 6:70 that Judas IS a devil, not later became a devil. Verse 71 - He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. In John 6:64, Jesus said - 64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. Judas was not fooling Jesus, although he may have looked like the real deal to others. In John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus. In John 12:6 we also read that he was a thief. I don't see any evidence in scripture of Judas ever being saved.

John 17 says all of the disciples were given to him by his Father and yet Jesus ended losing one of them (Which was Judas). For God cannot choose evil people to represent His good Kingdom. It would go against His good and Holy character. However, if a person later chooses to do evil and break the promises of God (that is within His Word), that is on them (And not God).
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John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Not lost one.

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.

In other words, Judas wasn't going back to the Law of Moses when he started to do evil. Judas merely was just choosing to sin and do evil.
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Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. Choosing to sin and do evil which lead up to the betrayal of Jesus was simply a manifestation of his unbelief. Judas was a wolf in sheep's clothing and Jesus knew it all along.
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

Senior Member
#371
Apr 7, 2014
25,316
13,277
113
58
#371
kennethcadwell said:
We can have assurance of receiving salvation right here and now,
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What exactly are you basing assurance of receiving salvation right here and now on?

but assurance of it is different then actual physical possession of it that some have been teaching. Nowhere in the bible does it say actual physical possession of it is ours right here and now. If that was the case then we would all already be changed in that twinkling of an eye, and be caught up into our spiritual bodies and be with the Lord.
Click to expand...
I hear believers on this forum saying they know they are saved right here and now, but I don't hear anyone claiming that they have already received their glorified bodies.

Even the first scripture posted from Paul says our salvation is nearer then when we first believed, how can something be nearer if we already have possession of it?
Click to expand...
Our glorification is nearer than when we first believed and became saved through faith.

It is because we have mental assurance of receiving it now, but physical possession comes at the resurrection a.k.a gathering to be with the Lord in the air.
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We will not receive our glorified bodies until the resurrection, but we are still saved now as a present possession. John 5:24 - "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
 
S

savedsince14

Guest
#372
#372
Jason0047 said:
First, I believe in the God in the Bible who is Holy and just as the Scriptures say. If God were to condone your belief in allowing a believer to sin and still be saved, then the Lord would be condoning His people to do evil. That's just not possible because God is good. In other words, would you be a good parent if you let your kids do whatever evil they liked? No, of course not.

Second, there are many examples in Scripture of believers who chosen sin over God and things did not end well for them.

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:


































And here is a list of potential fallen believers:





  • Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)















  • Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)









  • The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
    (James 5:19, 20)


For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).



If that is true then Jesus chose someone who was a devil, evil and unholy to be in one of the highest offices of the church and to represent his holy and good Kingdom (1 Corinthians 12:28). If such were the case, then Jesus would have violated Scripture (See 1 Timothy 3).



No, in John 17, the Father gives the 12 to Jesus. But Jesus did not keep them all. He lost one fo them, who was Judas. In order to lose something, you have to have it first. The Father gave all 12 to Jesus. But one became lost to him. In other words, you cannot lose a book I own, unless I actually give it to you to borrow or unless you took it yourself.



Would you not disown your son if he was out to do horrible and evil things in this world? What if he was Hitler? What if he was someone who had killed your entire family and he wanted to kill you? You know... sort of like a Michael Myers? Would you still really consider him your son? Pure evil? I don't think so.

Also, you agree that a believer has free will after salvation but yet you deny that there is any possibility that they can ever refuse God, though. That implies there is no more free will. Without the ability to reject God, then there is no more free will. Do you understand, my friend.

As for your beliefs about never losing your salvation: Have you ever examined what the Scriptures say about OSAS? Have you even once considered it and examined the Scriptures to see whether those things be so or not? Or do you not want to see it?
Click to expand...
Well, see , what I have done is what God said to do in 2nd Timothy 2:25 at the end which says,"rightly DIVIDNG the word of truth."This means not taking the whole Bible literally, but putting scripture with scripture that deals with the same subject. Just about every post on here has taken the scripture, that has been quoted, literal. If God wanted His word done that way,then He would be a liar because He said he tempted Abraham and then in James He said He didn't tempt anybody. And also where Jesus was talking about the sower of the seed, He would actually be talking about sowing seed instead of the preaching of his word. Yes, when David went in unto Bathsheba, that is exactly what he did . That is why the Bible says Jesus's put a lot of His teachings in parables,which is ,by the way, an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.Which means you don't take it literal, you have to study it to get the heavenly meaning. I think it's clear that you and I are not going to agree. So , I am just going to say I know what I believe , I'm not backing down from it because I know how to STUDY the scriptures, and let it go at that. We'll just agree to disagree and do what God says when He said,"let God be true and ALL man a liar."
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

Banned
#373
Jul 22, 2014
10,350
51
0
#373
mailmandan said:
Judas drew back and did not believe to the saving of the soul. Jesus clearly stated in John 6:70 that Judas IS a devil, not later became a devil. Verse 71 - He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve. In John 6:64, Jesus said - 64 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. Judas was not fooling Jesus, although he may have looked like the real deal to others. In John 13:10 - Jesus said to him, "He who is bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." 11 For He knew who would betray Him; therefore He said, "You are not all clean. Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus. In John 12:6 we also read that he was a thief. I don't see any evidence in scripture of Judas ever being saved.

John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Not lost one.

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.

Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. Choosing to sin and do evil which lead up to the betrayal of Jesus was simply a manifestation of his unbelief. Judas was a wolf in sheep's clothing and Jesus knew it all along.
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That doesn't make any sense. You cannot lose something unless you once had it. In order to lose something you have to possesss it. John 17 talks about losing the son of perdition. John 17:12 actually uses the word "lost." Psalm 41:9 is Messianic and speaks about Judas betraying Jesus. It says, "Yea, mine own familar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

Besides, if Judas was not saved (When Jesus chose Him), then you have a huge moral issue to resolve. How can the Lord (Being good) choose someone who is a devil or evil to be placed into one of the highest offices in the church to represent His good Kingdom and or to do good things for Him? For what fellowship does light have with darkness? Would that not be deceptive on God's part to have Judas (being evil) going to people's houses and doing good things for them as a representaive of God's good Kingdom? In fact, if Jesus were to have chosen a devil of a man to lead or represent his kingdom, he would have actually broken Scripture by doing so. For 1 Timothy 3:1, 3, 8 essentially says that a bishop (or leader in the church) is not to be given to filthy lucre. This spiritual leader not given to filth lucre (money) is mentioned twice in 1 Timothy 3 in both verses 3 and 8.

In John 6:70 Jesus is said that he has chosen the 12. This would imply that Jesus willingly chose someone who was evil (If you believe Judas was unsaved).
 
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RickyZ

RickyZ

Senior Member
#374
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#374
On the Judas issue, yes Christ said Judas was a devil. But Jesus also told Peter 'get thee behind me satan'. So if by calling Judas a devil makes Judas never saved, does that also not apply to Peter?
 
M

michael56

Banned
#375
Feb 5, 2015
1,852
13
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#375
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”[SUP]71 [/SUP](He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.) John 6:70

Judas was also a thief, as Jesus would have known
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

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#376
Jul 22, 2014
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#376
RickyZ said:
On the Judas issue, yes Christ said Judas was a devil. But Jesus also told Peter 'get thee behind me satan'. So if by calling Judas a devil makes Judas never saved, does that also not apply to Peter?
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Exactly. In the instance of Jesus calling Peter as Satan and for him to get behind him: This was an example of Peter being temporarily influenced into a wrong way of thinking by the devil. Peter was not actually Satan or a devil. Jesus had also praised Peter in a different time, too. I believe when Judas was placed at some point in charge of the money, he gave into his own temptations for filthy lucre and became a devil.

I just can't see our Lord willingly choosing someone who is evil to represent His Holy and good Kingdom. Now, if someone later becomes evil, then that is on them and not God.
 
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michael56

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#377
Feb 5, 2015
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#377
Jason0047 said:
Exactly. In the instance of Jesus calling Peter as Satan and for him to get behind him: This was an example of Peter being temporarily influenced into a wrong way of thinking by the devil. Peter was not actually Satan or a devil. Jesus had also praised Peter in a different time, too. I believe when Judas was placed at some point in charge of the money, he gave into his own temptations for filthy lucre and became a devil.

I just can't see our Lord willingly choosing someone who is evil to represent His Holy and good Kingdom. Now, if someone later becomes evil, then that is on them and not God.
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Jesus chose someone he knew would betray him, and Judas was one of the twelve disciples whilst he was a thief. Jesus did not remove him as one of the twelve, though he would have known he was a thief
 
RickyZ

RickyZ

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#378
Sep 20, 2012
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#378
And Judas repented. Is this the one case in the Bible where repentance means nothing?
 
Jason0047

Jason0047

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#379
Jul 22, 2014
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#379
michael56 said:
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!”[SUP]71 [/SUP](He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.) John 6:70

Judas was also a thief, as Jesus would have known
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Jesus is not speaking about how He just chosen all 12 of them at that very second or moment in time. Jesus is speaking in the past tense. A lot can happen between the present and the past. Jesus is saying, I have chosen all 12 of them (Which is a past event), but one yet one is currently a devil (in this present moment in time). The passage does not say Jesus chose a devil. Big difference. Why would Jesus choose someone who is evil and place him into the highest office of the church? Yes, I know, Judas later betrayed the Lord (Which fulfilsl Scripture), but how can God being good willing choose evil to represent His good Kingdom?
 
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michael56

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#380
Feb 5, 2015
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#380
RickyZ said:
And Judas repented. Is this the one case in the Bible where repentance means nothing?
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Jesus replied, “The one who has dipped his hand into the bowl with me will betray me. [SUP]24 [/SUP]The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him. But woe to that man who betrays the Son of Man! It would be better for him if he had not been born.”

Matt26:23-25

What do you think from Jesus' words?
 
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