The Sacred Letters of Timothy..OT Law or NT epistles?

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Jan 27, 2013
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#61
death had to be conquered. was in conquered before a new covenant was put in place.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#62
It still presents the same truth.
Yes it being the New Testament shows what was hidden in the Old, but the Old Testament does not directly teach Jesus Christ crucified and salvation through faith in Him.....find it?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#65
True, but it was the reproach OF CHRIST nonetheless which he considered, so he must have known of Christ.

Anyhow, Who do you suppose that Moses and others saw here:

Exodus chapter 24

[9] Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
[10] And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
[11] And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.


???
Hoe does that directly tech Jesus Christ and salvation through faith in Him?
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#66
Yes it being the New Testament shows what was hidden in the Old, but the Old Testament does not directly teach Jesus Christ crucified and salvation through faith in Him.....find it?
The OT is actually filled with the concept of substitutionary death for sin and the means by which that death would take place. You are not very familiar with the OT if have not seen this in it's pages.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#67
The OT is actually filled with the concept of substitutionary death for sin and the means by which that death would take place. You are not very familiar with the OT if have not seen this in it's pages.
Yes in concepts ...shadows as Paul calls them... But what you cant do is take a clear scripture that teaches salvation through the Cross and faith in Jesus Christ.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#68
Yes in concepts ...shadows as Paul calls them... But what you cant do is take a clear scripture that teaches salvation through the Cross and faith in Jesus Christ.
You do not believe that Jesus' death by crucifixion was foretold in the OT?
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#69
You do not believe that Jesus' death by crucifixion was foretold in the OT?
Hermit...of course I do but that is not the point! the point is what letters...writings was Paul speaking about and I think its much more likely that he was speaking of new covenant writings... That clearly teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#70
Hermit...of course I do but that is not the point! the point is what letters...writings was Paul speaking about and I think its much more likely that he was speaking of new covenant writings... That clearly teach salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE " Gal 3:13. This is quoted from Deut 21:23 and Paul tells us this was Messianic. "his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance."
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#71
"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE " Gal 3:13. This is quoted from Deut 21:23 and Paul tells us this was Messianic. "his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance."
Ok again hermit...That's the New Testament teaching the old...that makes my argument more likely than yours :)


And if the New Testament didn't teach you, do you really think you would read this as Christ Jesus?

De 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
 
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oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#72
Ok again hermit...That's the New Testament teaching the old...that makes my argument more likely than yours :)


And if the New Testament didn't teach you, do you really think you would read this as Christ Jesus?

De 21:22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree:
23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.
OH!!!! Now I see what you are getting at. What did Jesus tell the Pharisees regarding this very question in John 5:39? "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;" Yes, the OT was sufficient to teach the Jews that someone was coming and why. Did they know his name would be Jesus? I do not think so. But, what names were they told concerning him? Prince of peace, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Emanuel, etc...
 
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Mitspa

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#73
OH!!!! Now I see what you are getting at. What did Jesus tell the Pharisees regarding this very question in John 5:39? "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me;" Yes, the OT was sufficient to teach the Jews that someone was coming and why. Did they know his name would be Jesus? I do not think so But, what names were they told concerning, Prince of peace, Might God, Everlasting Father, Emanuel, etc...
Its shadows and types hermit... and again your using the New Testament.... to make your point and apart from the knowledge of Christ we would not know what He said was true.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#74
Its shadows and types hermit... and again your using the New Testament.... to make your point and apart from the knowledge of Christ we would not know what He said was true.

Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Joh 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
I guess I really do not understand what you are looking for. The point I am making is that the information IS in the OT and was presented in such a way that even though it was shadow and type, Jesus said they should have known. It looks to me like what you are saying is that there was no way thy could have know from the OT. If this is what you are suggesting then clearly you are in disagreement with Jesus and the rest of the NT.
 
M

Mitspa

Guest
#75
I guess I really do not understand what you are looking for. The point I am making is that the information IS in the OT and was presented in such a way that even though it was shadow and type, Jesus said they should have known. It looks to me like what you are saying is that there was no way thy could have know from the OT. If this is what you are suggesting then clearly you are in disagreement with Jesus and the rest of the NT.
Well that's not the point... and I have not even suggested the Old does not testify in type and shadow...the law does not directly teach Christ...and even the Lord told Peter no one could know He was the Christ unless God showed them... But no doubt the old testament testifies of Christ...but the writings Timothy would have used to be taught Faith and salvation in Christ would have been New Testament writings with the Old bearing witness...that's the point Im making.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#76
Well that's not the point... and I have even suggested the Old does not testify in type and shadow...the law does not directly teach Christ...and even the Lord told Peter no one could know He was the Christ unless God showed them... But no doubt the old testament testifies of Christ...but the writings Timothy would have used to be taught Faith and salvation in Christ would have been New Testament writings with the Old bearing witness...that's the point Im making.
When the Jews of Matthew 12 heard Jesus teaching they concluded based on his teaching that this must be the Son of David. The only way they could have come to that conclusion would have been if they was been sufficiently acquainted with the OT scriptures that they were able to recognize the Son of David when he came. They knew what the scriptures said about him and were able to properly reify what they heard form Jesus when they compared it to their expectations of him that were drawn from those scriptures. Yes, Christ was taught from the OT.
 
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Mitspa

Guest
#77
When the Jews of Matthew 12 heard Jesus teaching they concluded based on his teaching that this must be the Son of David. The only way they could have come to that conclusion would have been if they was been sufficiently acquainted with the OT scriptures that they were able to recognize the Son of David when he came. They knew what the scriptures said about him and were able to properly reify what they heard form Jesus when they compared it to their expectations of him that were drawn from those scriptures. Yes, Christ was taught from the OT.
Again your using the New testament...without it you would have no clue about what your talking about...so your making my point!
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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#78
Again your using the New testament...without it you would have no clue about what your talking about...so your making my point!
The Jews of Matt 12 knew it and they did not have the NT yet. Even the Samaritan woman in John 4 knew that a Messiah was coming and being a Samaritan, she only knew it from the Pentateuch. The Samaritans only accepted the first five books. She eventually concluded that this Jesus she was talking to was "THE prophet" of Deut 18. The NT did not even exist yet. Your arguments are complete nonsense.
 
M

Mitspa

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#79
The Jews of Matt 12 knew it and they did not have the NT yet. Even the Samaritan woman in John 4 knew that a Messiah was coming and being a Samaritan, she only knew it from the Pentateuch. The Samaritans only accepted the first five books. She eventually concluded that this Jesus she was talking to was "THE prophet" of Deut 18. The NT did not even exist yet. Your arguments are complete nonsense.
Again I admit shadows and types, but no direct teaching in the Old Testament of salvation through Faith in Jesus Christ, and that teaching would have been New Testament doctrine, and Paul used the term for writings and not the term he used for scripture ...In context of what he was writing about it was most likely New Testament writings he was at least in part referring to.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
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#80
Again I admit shadows and types, but no direct teaching in the Old Testament of salvation through Faith in Jesus Christ, and that teaching would have been New Testament doctrine, and Paul used the term for writings and not the term he used for scripture ...In context of what he was writing about it was most likely New Testament writings he was at least in part referring to.
Look, all you are doing is grasping at straws trying to defend a pet theory that is completely without merit. I think I have been patient with you long enough. I have better things to do with my time.