Gentile Christians sharing the Gospel with Jews

[peacefulbeliever]

God never condoned polygamy but like divorce he allowed it to occur and did not bring an immediate punishment for this disobedience.

Deuteronomy. 17:14-17 “I will set a king over me like all the nations that are around me,' “you shall surely set a king over you whom the LORD your God chooses; one from among your brethren you shall set as king over you; you may not set a foreigner over you, who is not your brother. But he shall not multiply horses for himself, nor cause the people to return to Egypt to multiply horses, for the LORD has said to you, 'You shall not return that way again.' “Neither shall he multiply wives for himself, lest his heart turn away; nor shall he greatly multiply silver and gold for himself.” This is the command of God, and he has never changed it.’

Was Abraham, David Solomon condemned or approved for practicing polygamy? Well they certainly did not get blessed for it! In fact every polygamist in the Bible like David and Solomon (1 Chron. 14:3) were punished. This should be evidence that this is not God’s will. Scripture has always commanded monogamy (Ps.128:3; Prov. 5:18; 18:22; 19:14; 31:10-29; Eccl. 9:9).

I believe that I said "God did not condone multiple wives but it was allowed." Needless to say multiple wives were common in the OT. It wasn't until Leviticus that specific regulations for marriage were commanded . . . Deuteronomy 21:15-17 even mentions the fact of a man having two wives.

Abraham married his half sister, at the time it was allowed . . then in Leviticus 18:9 God commands "The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover." [NIV-Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter; that would dishonor you.] - that has not changed. The point is at one time it was allowed.

Jacob married sisters, Rachal and Leah, at the time allowed . . . then in Leviticus 18:18 Neither shall thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. [NIV Do not take you wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.] - that has not changed. The point is at one time it was allowed.

I don't believe you are following what I am saying . . . where sometimes some things were allowed, God changed the rules and made them un-allowable (good word just not sure if it is a word!!!) and then some things that were at one time un-allowable are now allowed.

 

[just-me]

How in the world is receiving the tablets of stone equate with the infilling of the holy Spirit?

If one follows the sequence of events in Biblical history Shavuot/Pentecost commemorates the giving of the law to Moses at Sinai. Pentecost is an original Israelite holiday of the covenant remembering their time at Sinai one day after the feast of weeks is over.
Just as Passover celebrates physical freedom of the Israelite's redemption from bondage in Egypt, Shavuot celebrates spiritual liberation through their experience of God's presence and revelation at Sinai. In the Passover exodus, God brought a people out from among the nations. At Sinai on that first Shavuot or the Feast of Weeks, or later, Pentecost, God created a nation set apart for Himself. He revealed Himself and how to live as a redeemed community.

Exodus 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

verse 16 of the same chapter. "And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled."

Shavuot

• a major Jewish festival held on the 6th (and usually the 7th) of Sivan, fifty days after the second day of Passover. It was originally a harvest festival, but now also commemorates the giving of the Law (the Torah).

Pentecost

• the Christian festival celebrating the descent of the Holy Spirit on the disciples of Jesus after his Ascension, held on the seventh Sunday after Easter. the day on which Pentecost is held even though Easter is not Biblical.
  
  This is the Jewish festival of Shavuoth.
  
  The English word “Pentecost” is a transliteration of the Greek word pentekostos, which means “fifty.” It comes from the ancient Christian expression pentekoste hemera, which means “fiftieth day.”
  
  See Exodus 23:15-16
  
  "Shavuot" means "weeks," in recognition of the weeks of preparation and anticipation leading up to the Sinai experience. Since Shavuot occurs 50 days after the first day of Passover, it is sometimes known as "Pentecost," a Greek word meaning "the holiday of 50 days.
  
  
  Acts 2:1 and 5
  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
  
  ​

 

[Elin]

They are in agreement with the Apostle (Gal 5:1, 4:9, 4:24-25).

So do you believe that God took the Israelites out of Egyptian bondage just to subject them to another form of bondage in the Torah?

I think what the NT thinks:

That in its allegory of Hagar and Sarah, Hagar represents the Mosaic Covenant who bears children who are to be in bondage and who is in bondage with her children;

that Christ has set us free from this yoke of bondage, and we are not to again to be burdened by it.

 

[Elin]

Torah leads to Christ. Torah is all that flows from Yahweh for us.(who are His).

to say Torah is in any way 'bondage' shows a complete lack of knowledge of Yahweh and Scripture and Yahshua.

The Apostle disagrees with you (Gal 5:1, 4:9, 4:24-25).

In the NT allegory of Hagar and Sarah, Hagar represents the Mosaic Covenant who bears children who are to be in bondage and who is in bondage with her children;

Christ has set us free from this yoke of bondage, and we are not to again to be burdened by it.

 

[just-me]

I believe that I said "God did not condone multiple wives but it was allowed." Needless to say multiple wives were common in the OT. It wasn't until Leviticus that specific regulations for marriage were commanded . . . Deuteronomy 21:15-17 even mentions the fact of a man having two wives.

Abraham married his half sister, at the time it was allowed . . then in Leviticus 18:9 God commands "The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover." [NIV-Do not have sexual relations with your sister, either your father's daughter or your mother's daughter; that would dishonor you.] - that has not changed. The point is at one time it was allowed.

Jacob married sisters, Rachal and Leah, at the time allowed . . . then in Leviticus 18:18 Neither shall thou take a wife to her sister, to vex her, to uncover her nakedness, beside the other in her life time. [NIV Do not take you wife's sister as a rival wife and have sexual relations with her while your wife is living.] - that has not changed. The point is at one time it was allowed.

I don't believe you are following what I am saying . . . where sometimes some things were allowed, God changed the rules and made them un-allowable (good word just not sure if it is a word!!!) and then some things that were at one time un-allowable are now allowed.

The Bible is clear that God or His Son Jesus doesn't change. I also mentioned that the law entered because of transgression. The Word of God is to change mankind and our actions, not the other way around. God regrets our actions when we sin but that is not an indication that His principles given to us change according to our actions. There is no "plan B" with God Almighty.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

The Bible is clear that God or His Son Jesus doesn't change. I also mentioned that the law entered because of transgression. The Word of God is to change mankind and our actions, not the other way around. God regrets our actions when we sin but that is not an indication that His principles given to us change according to our actions. There is no "plan B" with God Almighty.

I never said that God changed his "rules" according to man's actions. How does God changing or modifying his "rules" change HIM?

. . . . bump . . . .

Originally Posted by just-me

One more thing. In the instructions God gave to Israel through Moses, Gentiles were able to be incorporated into their ranks same as in the New Covenant through Christ Jesus.

Exodus 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.

The above is before the law was given.

Leviticus 25:35 And if thy brother be waxen poor, and fallen in decay with thee; then thou shalt relieve him: yea, though he be a stranger, or a sojourner; that he may live with thee.

This is after the law was given. The law given to Moses only instructs the circumcision of the heart but not the flesh.

Are you saying that the above is the same as the "new covenant", the "new birth", being "born again" as in Jew and Gentile becoming "one body"?

 

[sparty-g]

I think what the NT thinks:

That in its allegory of Hagar and Sarah, Hagar represents the Mosaic Covenant who bears children who are to be in bondage and who is in bondage with her children;

that Christ has set us free from this yoke of bondage, and we are not to again to be burdened by it.

[I like how you double inlay quote likes that, btw.]

I'll respond to the allegory soon. But first, in your perspective, if one covenant is the mosaic covenant, then which covenant is the other one mentioned here?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

If one follows the sequence of events in Biblical history Shavuot/Pentecost commemorates the giving of the law to Moses at Sinai. Pentecost is an original Israelite holiday of the covenant remembering their time at Sinai one day after the feast of weeks is over.
Just as Passover celebrates physical freedom of the Israelite's redemption from bondage in Egypt, Shavuot celebrates spiritual liberation through their experience of God's presence and revelation at Sinai. In the Passover exodus, God brought a people out from among the nations. At Sinai on that first Shavuot or the Feast of Weeks, or later, Pentecost, God created a nation set apart for Himself. He revealed Himself and how to live as a redeemed community.

Exodus 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

verse 16 of the same chapter. "And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled."

Shavuot

• a major Jewish festival held on the 6th (and usually the 7th) of Sivan, fifty days after the second day of Passover. It was originally a harvest festival, but now also commemorates the giving of the Law (the Torah).

Pentecost

• the Christian festival celebrating the descent of the Holy Spirit on the disciples of Jesus after his Ascension, held on the seventh Sunday after Easter. the day on which Pentecost is held even though Easter is not Biblical.
  
  This is the Jewish festival of Shavuoth.
  
  The English word “Pentecost” is a transliteration of the Greek word pentekostos, which means “fifty.” It comes from the ancient Christian expression pentekoste hemera, which means “fiftieth day.”
  
  See Exodus 23:15-16
  
  "Shavuot" means "weeks," in recognition of the weeks of preparation and anticipation leading up to the Sinai experience. Since Shavuot occurs 50 days after the first day of Passover, it is sometimes known as "Pentecost," a Greek word meaning "the holiday of 50 days.
  
  
  Acts 2:1 and 5
  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.​

• 
  ​

Yes, I see where Pentecost, The Feast of Weeks, or Shavuot became a celebration to commemorate the giving of the law on Mt. Sinai after Israel left captivity. It was also a celebration of bringing the first fruits of the harvest as a wave offering to God.

I think sometimes the way you word things throws me off.

 

[Jeff_56]

yahweh trains us, yahshua reveals to us yahweh's will, in line with all his word, and all the apostles agree with me.
here is a small part of his word, although there is very much more assurance from yahweh , which he may reveal to you as or if you seek him>>>

(if you think the law/torah/scripture/yahweh's word is bondage, then you don't understand anything yet)

(this is simply quotes easily found in scripture>>>) (all of scripture/torah agrees,btw)

Jesus - The End of the Law - Jude Ministries
Jesus - The End of the Law
‎
As Paul has written elsewhere (Gal 3:24), the law leads to Jesus. His statement
here that Jesus is the end of the law causes much concern to many scholars.

Galatians 3:23-29 - But Now That Faith Has Come
Galatians 3:23-29 - But Now That Faith Has Come

"Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be
justified by faith." (Galatians 3:24). Paul uses yet another illustration of the role
the ...


New American Standard Bible
Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.

King James Bible
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The law, then, was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith.

International Standard Version
And so the Law was our guardian until the Messiah came, so that we might be justified by faith.

NET Bible
Thus the law had become our guardian until Christ, so that we could be declared righteous by faith.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
The Written Law was therefore a guide for us to The Messiah that we would be made right by faith.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
Before Christ came, Moses' laws served as our guardian. Christ came so that we could receive God's approval by faith.

Jubilee Bible 2000
Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

King James 2000 Bible
Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

American King James Version
Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

American Standard Version
So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.



... these scriptures together: 'the law is perfect, converting the soul," Psalm xix. .....
You will reply and say, Yes; the law can bring us to Christ for salvation; as it is ...

[h=3]James 1:25 Commentary - Precept Austin[/h]www.preceptaustin.org/james_125.htm‎

• Cached

(c) But there is still another sense in which the Christian law is perfect. ......
sanctifies us by showing us first our need, and then leading us to Christ for the
supply.


... It acts as our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by .....
The Bible tells us that the Law is Perfect Converting the soul.

The Apostle disagrees with you (Gal 5:1, 4:9, 4:24-25).

In the NT allegory of Hagar and Sarah, Hagar represents the Mosaic Covenant who bears children who are to be in bondage and who is in bondage with her children;

Christ has set us free from this yoke of bondage, and we are not to again to be burdened by it.

 

[Elin]

[I like how you double inlay quote likes that, btw.]

Thanks.

I'll respond to the allegory soon. But first, in your perspective, if one covenant is the mosaic covenant, then which covenant is the other one mentioned here?

Paul is referring to the gospel covenant (2Co 3:6) cut in the blood of Jesus Christ (Lk 22:20; Heb 8:6, 9:15).

 

[Elin]

Correction of post #50, above.

The other covenant is the Abrahamic covenant based on faith.

 

[just-me]

I never said that God changed his "rules" according to man's actions. How does God changing or modifying his "rules" change HIM?

If He changed His rules i.e. His instructions, He would show Himself as less than perfect. His "name" is His character and all He has ever said, for man shall not live by bread alone. See Matthew 4:4 and Deuteronomy 8:3

Are you saying that the above is the same as the "new covenant", the "new birth", being "born again" as in Jew and Gentile becoming "one body"?

In essence, the born again experience is in relation to the writings of the Old Testament. As we read the conversation with Nicodemus in John 3:10 we see that Nicodemus was expected by Jesus to know about being "born again" according to the scripture available at that time. I'm not saying that the stranger that was incorporated into Israel in Leviticus 25:35 is the same as receiving the Holy Spirit however. What that scripture does in Leviticus, is foreshadow the sayings of Paul, and I quote.....

Romans 2:9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

 

[just-me]

Jeff_56, if I may add to your comments that I agree with, I quote Paul as He says? "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." (Romans 3:31)

 

[Elin]

I think what the NT thinks:

That in its allegory of Hagar and Sarah, Hagar represents the Mosaic Covenant who bears children who are to be in bondage and who is in bondage with her children;

that Christ has set us free from this yoke of bondage, and we are not to again to be burdened by it.

[I like how you double inlay quote likes that, btw.]

I'll respond to the allegory soon. But first, in your perspective, if one covenant is the mosaic covenant, then which covenant is the other one mentioned here?

The other is the unconditional covenant of the Promise.

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to Christ.
Those in Christ through faith inherit the blessings promised to Abraham; i.e., the heavenly city of God.

Those in Christ are not the children of the slave woman (the law), but of the free woman (the promise),
and are not in bondage to the law, but are children of the unconditional promise who live by faith.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

If He changed His rules i.e. His instructions, He would show Himself as less than perfect. His "name" is His character and all He has ever said, for man shall not live by bread alone. See Matthew 4:4 and Deuteronomy 8:3

I just don't agree that when one changes a set of rules then that person has changed - it did nothing to change God's character to say that no longer may man have more than one wife . . . it did nothing to change God's character to say no longer can you only eat plants but you may now eat meat . . . etc.

In essence, the born again experience is in relation to the writings of the Old Testament. As we read the conversation with Nicodemus in John 3:10 we see that Nicodemus was expected by Jesus to know about being "born again" according to the scripture available at that time. I'm not saying that the stranger that was incorporated into Israel in Leviticus 25:35 is the same as receiving the Holy Spirit however. What that scripture does in Leviticus, is foreshadow the sayings of Paul, and I quote.....

Romans 2:9-10
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
[SUP]10 [/SUP]But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

I am a simple person - I try to speak plainly and simply - you speak in what seems double talk and it has seemed that way from the first time I ever posted with you - which if confusing to say the least - oh well, maybe it's just me!! [lol play on words].

What to you is the mystery, the secret that was revealed not in the OT but only in the NT or do you even believe that nothing new was revealed? Just asking . . .

 

[sparty-g]

oh well, maybe it's just me!!

Ba-dum, crash!

 

[just-me]

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

oh well, maybe it's just me!!

Ba-dum, crash!

It usually turns out that way LOL

The question remains however. How do we Gentiles fulfill this admonition from the Apostle Paul and prophecy of God through Moses? Are we to ridicule their self works because of the works of the law minus faith, and in so doing driving a bigger wedge between us and them? Are we to teach them as Constantine, saying their religion is corrupt altogether because of works of the letter of the law? Let's have a discussion about finding the proper way to minister to the non Messianic Jews and fulfill the words of God through Moses and Paul.

They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. (Deuteronomy 32:21)

But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. (Romans 10:19)

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (Romans 11:11)

And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; (1 Corinthians 9:20)

 

[sparty-g]

The question remains however. How do we Gentiles fulfill this admonition from the Apostle Paul and prophecy of God through Moses? Are we to ridicule their self works because of the works of the law minus faith, and in so doing driving a bigger wedge between us and them? Are we to teach them as Constantine, saying their religion is corrupt altogether because of works of the letter of the law? Let's have a discussion about finding the proper way to minister to the non Messianic Jews and fulfill the words of God through Moses and Paul.

As you mentioned in your OP, there are some challenges. The history of the "church" has not been kind to them. But it's not impossible, as can be seen today by the tens (hundreds?) of thousands of Jews who have put their faith in Him today. Look at the Messianic Jewish congregations and umbrella organizations (UMJC, MJAA) for evidence of this. There's also a significant movement in Israel.

There are sources to help with this. Dr. Michael L. Brown is a leading Jewish evangelist with a series of books on how to handle Jewish objections to Jesus. There is an 18-video series on YouTube called, "Dr. Michael L. Brown: Jewish Objections to Jesus."

My first bit of practical advice: Present them a Jesus with whom they can relate-- a first-century Jewish rabbi/teacher with Jewish disciples. Try to help them understand Him in the context of their own history and culture. Try calling Him Yeshua -- the commonly agreed upon name which He was called while walking the earth -- instead of "Jesus" or "Christ" -- the name under which they have historically been murdered, exiled, and persecuted. Show them that the earliest "church" (ekklesia -- called-out community of believers) was Jewish. And it most certainly was. The most pressing issue early in the "Jesus movement" wasn't what do we do with all these Jews, but what the Jewish believers were to do with these Gentiles coming to faith. Moreover, understand their history, their successes, and their sufferings (there are many books on the topic). In other words, have a real heart for them. And most importantly, be a true witness for Jesus and everything for which He stands. "Christ in us" and the life we have in Him should be the most important thing that draws others.

Personally (and this is going to make my views very evident), I think the "Jesus" that has been presented to the Jews historically is not the authentic Jesus. I have a lot more to say on this but will hold my tongue for now unless someone asks.

 

[MarcR]

When sharing Christ with Jewish people these suggestions may help to create a receptive attitude:

1) Use the words Messiah and Messianic rather than Christ and Christian. While we know that these words have identical meanings; past persecutions have created mental barriers that are better skirted than crossed.

2) Avoid using the words convert or conversion.

3) Refer to Jesus as Yeshua or Salvation or even better use both alternately.

4) Confine your Scripture citations to the Old Testament.

You might start by asking how they understand Psalm 22 and Isa 53.

You might then ask how they understand Isa 49:6-7

You might then ask them who they think Zec 12:10 speaks of.

Then present Yeshua as a Jewish filfullment of a Jewish Promise of a Jewish Messiah in whom the gentiles have been privileged to share.

I am all things to all men that by all means some might be saved.

 

[just-me]

MarcR and sparty-g. I agree with both of your posts. Both of you were indicating the necessity to understand the Hebrew culture in order to relate in a more appropriate way. Just as the term "slave" is used in the Bible the culture of the American "slave" in our history are not the same in relation. I think about the law that says an eye for an eye that is so grossly misunderstood by today's evangelical religion, which I am also a part of. So many think that Jesus was debunking the law and claiming to change it. In research (according to the Hebrew culture and their understanding), that ruling of God to Moses, and the ruling of Jesus, as He ministered to the Jews called the "sermon on the mount," are actually in correlation with one another showing us that our God is a God of equity. Allow me to quote the law without adversity.

Exodus 21:22-27
[SUP]22 [/SUP]If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life,
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye's sake.
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And if he smite out his manservant's tooth, or his maidservant's tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth's sake.

Turning the other cheek is according to the culture of the Jews/Israel/Hebrews, if you will. A back hand from a right handed person was a demeaning gesture and turning the other cheek forced the abuser to slap with a open hand. Turning the other cheek forced an open hand slap and was a gesture of an instigated confrontation by the slapper showing both men as being of equal stature to the witnesses who would be watching.

Matthew 5:38-39
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

In the law the owner of the indentured servant would ultimately lose his total investment and also any further help from his servant. God's equity remains the same in all these instances.

Some may say that the "eye for and eye and tooth for a tooth means that the offenders eye or tooth would also be punched or pulled out but this is truly not the case in the original law given to Moses.

Knowing Hebrew culture is very important in order to minister the salvation of Jesus Christ to them as I see it.