The Law as a School MASTER

[eternally-gratefull]

I will just say it takes a lot of nerve to judge what only God can see - the heart. And that's what someone is doing when he assumes the other is going to hell based solely, it seems, on the text the other writes. Never mind they claim repentance and worship Jesus, which repentance is what Jesus says is you need (most of this talk seems to be coming from Paul's letters) "They're not doing it the proper way! Their theology is not exactly like mine! So they couldn't possible love Jesus!"

If the love for God and attaining salvation is just as dependant on how we understand the receiving of salvation, as walking in it, there is no hope for us. You can sit along the track and debate all day long how to train, what shoes to use, the proper swing of the arms, the proper breathing techniques, and on and on - but that says nothing of one's actual ability to run. Knowing the proper techniques doesn't win the race, only running it does.

King David had no military training against Goliath. He did it endowed with God's strength - but he still put forth effort, didn't he? He still shot, for God to use the stone. I don't care what your method is - if God blesses it, it will be used and profitable, regardless of the person's experience, knowledge, or literal effort. Some declare King David as a type of Christ. Notice Christ, shown in King David, uses things that appear quite foolish and of little help, to mightily save. And rejects what would cpbe considered helpful and vital (the heavy armour, rejecting it more because of convience than anything else). And before someone says "But it was the Philistines who thought it foolish." So did God's people, as they thought him undertake a suicide mission. Except King Saul, but we know how quickly he changed his tune, so his original melody probably wasn't all that genuine.

I think that is what Christians mean about the difference between knowing about Him and knowing Him. You can learn to run properly, but it does little good unless you run. And even so - the race is not about who gets there first (who understands properly), but that they cross the line to begin with, even with said defective techniques and heresies. It wasn't Jesus who coined that, you know. When He talked of false teaching, it was usually a moral nature (misleading others for one's own benefit for example), not a theological one.

I don't mean to enter the deabte. I see the faith alone but the other makes sense as well, and I understand how both have been drawn from Scruipture. I have also been of the dogmatic persuasion of both, at different times in my life. Now, I'm just open, because I believe the faith is more about the walk/run itself, than the method. Of course, that means I'm on the fence, not firm/certain in what I believe, and thus I will go to hell as well.

Point is, that it is foolish to be divided over how to run - just run.

your right, only God knows ones heart.

But as proven in scripture, by pauls continuous judgment on false teachers. we are able to judge a gospel message, and know if that gospel message is from God, or a false teacher.

if someone is teaching a has faith in a false gospel. we can judge that according to his gospel. he is most likely not going to heaven.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well if you call me a leagist because I uphold the same standards that Paul even preached on then well be it, because it was Paul who gave the meat of the word and he is the one who said these standards still apply for salvation. A person can not walk in the flesh (sins) and walk in the Spirit both and get salvation.

You do not teach what paul taught my friend. Paul taught eternal security in Christ, not by works lest anyone should be puffed up in pride. That we are sealed by the spirit who is our guarantee. That we were justified freely, not by works of righteousness which we have done, That God took the condemnation due to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. That we have eternal life, Not the conditional life you are preaching.

Nothing you teach even closely resembles what paul taught, Paul condemned your gospel. and you can not even see it.

The next thing is about the Galatians, as you do not realize that by going back to being justified by the law was a sin because they put the law before the Lord. Anything put before God is a sin, and this was the Galatians way of drawing back to a sinful lifestyle by putting their faith in the law.

You do not even see why they went back in the firt place. They went back because it is what they truly had faith in, They never trusted Christ, if they did, they never would have departed from that faith. A psuedo false faith does not save you and never will. as James said, the dead faith has never saved anyone. And as peter said, a Dog returns to his own vomit, why? He was still a dog. He was never made a new creature, he just tried to play new games, and decided he did not like the game (following Christ) he was more comfortable in his true lifetyle, which was sin, and separation from God.

Then the other thing it still seems that some do not understand is that we by ourselves can not uphold the standards of God for us, yet by being born again of the Spirit we are not alone. We now have the Holy Spirit in us guiding, helping, and giving us all knowledge we seek. If you put your full trust and focus on Him then you will be guided to uphold His standards, as this is how we know the true born again believers from those who are not. By the fruits of the Spirit that will be present within their lives shows a true faith, as the bible clearly shows that these fruits will be evident in all born again believers in Christ. No fruit, no Holy Spirit, no Christ abiding in you = No salvation......

This is the only part we agree on, And I can't even understand you can claim this, yet you do not believe it, Because you say all these things empowered by God, and kept in line by God can fail,

Can God fail? Not according to scripture.

"he who BEGAN A GOOD WORK in YOU WILL CONTINUE IT until the day of christ"

No may continue, no may fail, He will complete his work.

It also says this.

And has PERFECTED FOREVER those who are BEING SANCTIFIED.

It does not say he is trying to sanctify people so he can perfect them when they get to heaven, It says he has already perfected forever those who he is in the process of growing to be more like Christ.

Again, why do you deny the power of God?

If you kept your final point you would be in aggrement with the word of God, and believe as we do. But you have to many false points added to it, which contradicts is, and calls God a liar. so you can not agree with god

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You can only have one bottom line before God, not two! King David's bottom line was trusting in God's unfailing love for him, that is mine also. Would you agree it should be every Christians bottom line, or is there another in your view?

if it is not. I would doubt our salvation, because it takes true faith in christ to be saved.

and for those who say faith can be lost. i must ask, when will God ever fail a person to the point they stop trusting him?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

So God's unfailing love is not your bottom line, it is your ability to obey literal commandments

true.

His faith in in his ability to obey commands, not in Christ, thus it is in himself.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Do we walk in love if we tell people they must obey all of Christ's literal commands in order have God's unfailing love, if we cannot ourselves obey all of Christ's commands?
Would that not be crushing people with demands we ourselves cannot/do not meet?

thats why the world calls Gods people hypocrites. and hate us.

because we do not show Gods love as he showed it while he walked the earth, and his true unconditional love of the cross. instead we preach hellfire and brimstone, and judge the world. when in reality, we ourelves are still judged as sinners.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I have never been to any church that gives the impression you can act as you like as long as you believe Jesus died for you. I have been to a lot of churches, but never one that came close to preaching that, or inferring it. In the church I spent my youth in, they relentlessly preached a very high standard indeed as to how you must live, the inference was ,if it was not attained to your salvation was in jeapordy. I simply became a worse sinner, and the core of the church came from the more affluent half of society and the more academically gifted half also.

Grace is a hard thing for most to accept it seems. Only when a person knows Christ paid the price of all their sins at Calvary, past, present and future can they truly see great victory over sin. It is not a license to sin, for the new covenant hinges on two core facts, not one. In the church of my youth, none of this was explained, nor did they tell us you are not under la law of righteousness, and that included the Ten Commandments.
I have found the most dangerous churches are ones that most stress Holy living but do not fully and forthrightly preach the grace of the Bible. They are mainly filled with the better off financially, and the more academically gifted. Why is that? Because these people on the whole(though not always) come from more loving, secure homes. Therefore, statistically they are less likely(though not always) to use foul language, have extra marital affairs, smoke or get drunk.
You see Kenneth, what you really believe is your sin is excusable as you do not commit what you consider ''unacceptable sins'' Therefore on that basis you will attain Heaven. That is what the vast majority of church goers believe, and is why we have a watered down version of the Gospel message that leaves many churches half empty and with people predominantly from one side of society

people hate grace because it takes them out of the picture. and places the emphasis on Christ.

They say grace is easy believism, and causes a license to sin, when in reality, it is legalism which causes a license to sin, because they have their pet sins they do not commit, but have their own sins which they must either excuse or deny, for to not do so would condemn themselves. which they are not willing to do.

which is why the law has not yet worked in their life.

 

[jamie26301]

Didn't Paul say against such things ("the fruits of the Spirit") there is no law? Do you have a verse that states the contrary brother Kenneth? Doesn't brother Paul's epistle to the Romans say "Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth." ?

I don't even have to look it up, I can quote directly. You will find it in Romans, in the first half of the book.

"Should we sin that grace may abound? Heaven forbid!"

 

[dcontroversal]

A genuine question. Why would you depend on God's unfailing love if you are obeying all of Christ's commandments? Surely you would not depend on that unfailing love unless you were not keeping them all. But if you do not keep them all, you fail according to the above emboldened to show the fruits of the spirit that is necessary to have that unfailing love.
I say this sincerely, it seems a contradiction to me.

You will find that those who believe in works, the loss of and or regaining of salvation etc. regularly contradict themselves and the word.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

I have been to Baptist, Pentecostal/charismatic churches mostly, but also C of E. I have never once, in 35 years at those churches met anyone who has consciously trued to obey each and every literal command of Christ. But I have heard some great sounding statements reeled off almost pat.
I have heard many stress how well you must live your life, but sadly, only in the church I now attend does the minister plainly state Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness. He states no matter how hard you try you cannot obey the whole law. He also states the Christian is assured of Heaven because of what Christ did for them at Calvary
It is very different from other churches I have been to that stressed what the individual must do to attain. People at the church I am now at have come off drugs, been released from alcohol addiction, the better off and the poorer folk are at ease with each other and get on well. The academically gifted, sit next to those who are not so blessed with such qualities.
Yet in the many churches I attended where it was stressed how well the individual must live according to the letter I didn't see this so much
From my experience, the Gospel message is better reflected in peoples lives when the preaching emphasises the security of the individual with God because of what Christ has done for them, not when the emphasis is on what the individual must do to attain Heaven

Amen for sure........what is tragic is the simple fact that if security of the believer is not a reality then ALL will cook as the bible clearly teaches that there is only ONE who walked perfect before GOD and that was JESUS...what the workers for salvation fail to understand is that the righteousness of Christ is applied unto the genuine believer and when the Father looks at such he sees them through the blood of Christ......NO matter how you slice and dice it at the end of the day those who teach works for salvation, adherence to the law for salvation etc. trust into themselves and their abilities......they have to HELP GOD save themselves and keep themselves saved...they will also make a play on sin and deny that they sin...instead they (MESS UP) or (made a mistake)....oooooh they will say that we believe we can live like we want, sin all the time and do as we please because we rightfully understand that Christ eternally saves, seals, justifies and sanctifies (positionally) those who have actually trusted into Christ while relying completely upon Christ for total salvation!

 

[Joshua_Generation]

people hate grace because it takes them out of the picture. and places the emphasis on Christ.

They say grace is easy believism, and causes a license to sin, when in reality, it is legalism which causes a license to sin, because they have their pet sins they do not commit, but have their own sins which they must either excuse or deny, for to not do so would condemn themselves. which they are not willing to do.

which is why the law has not yet worked in their life.

Amen!

They key to understanding God's grace, unlocks the door to the position of righteousness, unlocking the door to righteousness, opens the door to the divine nature, opening the door to the divine nature leads into the vast room we call rest.

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen!

They key to understanding God's grace, unlocks the door to the position of righteousness, unlocking the door to righteousness, opens the door to the divine nature, opening the door to the divine nature leads into the vast room we call rest.

No doubt and those who have entered into HIS rest have CEASED from their OWN LABORS......

 

[jamie26301]

your right, only God knows ones heart.

But as proven in scripture, by pauls continuous judgment on false teachers. we are able to judge a gospel message, and know if that gospel message is from God, or a false teacher.

if someone is teaching a has faith in a false gospel. we can judge that according to his gospel. he is most likely not going to heaven.

I will point to this:

Matthew 22
15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words.
16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are.
17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not?”

In terms of fruit (Matthew 7) Jesus is speaking of those who claim to lead, to have truth - prophets. He is speaking of works (miracles, casting of demons, etc) as not being all there is to know a sheep from a wolf. If how someone lives can't attest dogmatically to their goodness (tithing, fasting, all these things Jesus says are good, but that hypocrites do to hide their motives and innermost thoughts), then how is it you think you can judge a stranger's very soul on the text in these threads!

You honestly think that just believing and proclaiming "faith alone" means that you are saved? You honestly think that it is genuine love for Jesus to believe He alone saves, and yet you feel that others are damned when they don't believe this certain doctrine? (Faith Alone is not salvation, it is a doctrine of how one believes they come to Jesus - it is not Jesus Himself. It is an idea. It is a common, among other very common, ways of reading a book. That is what is utterly ridiculous about pushing such standards as absolute - it is about church tradition, more than it is about Christ Himself). And besides all this, Paul wasn't universally revered in the early church, as Jesus Himself was. In fact, his thoughts were largely ignored by some circles for quite some time. I don't think he has a monopoly on how to view and think of salvation.


And even in using this Matthew 22 Scripture, you realize that EVEN in terms of someone's obedience and reverence, you can't judge their hearts. I think Jesus is quite clear about this.


I am not talking about false gospel or the right gospel. I am talking of warning someone of hellfire solely because that person believes they should obey the Lord, and that it is essential to do so (in one's own conviction - no where have I seen support of harassment/legalism).

Which is what this boils down to. To continually disregard Jesus as Lord - that is, as One who tells you how you should live in addition to accepting His forgiveness - and say that has nothing to do with salvation or loyalty to Him, is to say that you can say the Sinner's Prayer and then you are set. If it really doesn't matter, why "make disciples and baptize" as Jesus commands? If being a Christian consists of obedience to the Lord, and it is essential as many of these Protestant churches attest, then how is it faith alone? (I think it'd be helpful if we defined faith)

If faith alone was all you needed to understand and follow the Lord, what is all this moral direction from St. Paul? Why does he, in honest assessment of all his writing, emphasis being faithful as well about having faith - because remember, these are largely churches who have heard the Gospel and accepted it.

Unless you want to support OSAS, which if that's the case, then I would say you're consistent in what you attest, because works really doesn't matter in that case. But you can't look into someone's heart and see if they are honestly struggling to master sin, or abiding in it. That's the point I'm getting at. For example, because someone struggles with outbursts of anger, and doesn't magically stop, doesn't mean they are not praying about it and trying to master it, even if it takes longer than you think it should. Everyone is different, have different struggles, different maturity levels in Christ, and different personalities that make struggles harder or easier depending on person.

But here, we're not even talking about works in damning someone to hell, but what they believe about understanding Christ and relating to Him. Mixing Law and Gospel, as a Lutheran would put it. But if you honestly absorb Paul's letters as a whole, it would appear he does the same thing. And all the Scriptures of Jesus' very words that loving Him means obeying Him posted here, has largely been ignored. What does it say, for these who claim Kenneth is hellbound, when they ignore the words of Christ Himself as convenient?

And, I think this is largely a lost cause, anyway, at least for now. It doesn't appear, as we are on page nine, that anyone is going to be persuaded of anything. Why keep going, and reiterating the same Scriptures from both sides? I like to say that it takes great talent to be a Nascar winner, because it takes talent to drive in circles without getting dizzy. I've been guilty of that, but it's a talent I prefer to shed. It's not an especially flattering one.

So, I'm unfollowing, as I don't really see anything new being stated, nor does anyone seem very open minded.

I'll leave you with a skill that Jesus alone has, and we would all do well to remember this:

John 2
23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did.
24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men,
25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

I don't even have to look it up, I can quote directly. You will find it in Romans, in the first half of the book.

"Should we sin that grace may abound? Heaven forbid!"

That's where brother Paul says "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" Good stuff,....... and then in Romans 6 last couple of verses Paul gives us a reminder of this wonderful truth.......

"But now being made free from sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord."

God's free gift of grace(His Holy Spirit)frees us from our sins, grants us eternal life and causes us to be His servants, while baring fruits of His Spirit that reflect outwardly.The work of God done through faith is a transformation of the inner man done solely by God working in us and through us,for our salvation and shows that no one can pluck us out of His hand once His work begins in us

 

[dcontroversal]

That's where brother Paul says "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace" Good stuff,....... and then in Romans 6 last couple of verses Paul gives us a reminder of this wonderful truth.......

"But now being made free from sin, and having become servants to God, ye have your fruit to holiness, and the end everlasting life.For the wages of sin is death: but the gift of God is eternal life, through Jesus Christ our Lord."

God's free gift of grace(His Holy Spirit)frees us from our sins, grants us eternal life and causes us to be His servants, while baring fruits of His Spirit that reflect outwardly.The work of God done through faith is a transformation of the inner man done solely by God working in us and through us,for our salvation and shows that no one can pluck us out of His hand once His work begins in us

AMEN to this for sure and thank God for his grace, mercy and imputed righteousness through Jesus Christ and faith.....!

 

[michael56]

people hate grace because it takes them out of the picture. and places the emphasis on Christ.

They say grace is easy believism, and causes a license to sin, when in reality, it is legalism which causes a license to sin, because they have their pet sins they do not commit, but have their own sins which they must either excuse or deny, for to not do so would condemn themselves. which they are not willing to do.

which is why the law has not yet worked in their life.

Absolutely. God wants the glory doesn't he. He will not share it with any man. Jesus said:

Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill(or attack) me?” John 7:18&19

I don't think I have ever heard a person who stresses what the individual must do to attain Heaven give God all the glory for positive change in their life. It's hard to do that when you lay the emphasis on what the individual must do to attain Heaven

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen for sure........what is tragic is the simple fact that if security of the believer is not a reality then ALL will cook as the bible clearly teaches that there is only ONE who walked perfect before GOD and that was JESUS...what the workers for salvation fail to understand is that the righteousness of Christ is applied unto the genuine believer and when the Father looks at such he sees them through the blood of Christ......NO matter how you slice and dice it at the end of the day those who teach works for salvation, adherence to the law for salvation etc. trust into themselves and their abilities......they have to HELP GOD save themselves and keep themselves saved...they will also make a play on sin and deny that they sin...instead they (MESS UP) or (made a mistake)....oooooh they will say that we believe we can live like we want, sin all the time and do as we please because we rightfully understand that Christ eternally saves, seals, justifies and sanctifies (positionally) those who have actually trusted into Christ while relying completely upon Christ for total salvation!

this is seen in the law. The mercy seat. When the priest sprinkles the blood over the mercy eat. the cherub se the blood. Not the things when were held against the Israelites (there sin) and this allowed God to forget the sins of the past year.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen!

They key to understanding God's grace, unlocks the door to the position of righteousness, unlocking the door to righteousness, opens the door to the divine nature, opening the door to the divine nature leads into the vast room we call rest.

Amen, I could not have said it any better.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

No doubt and those who have entered into HIS rest have CEASED from their OWN LABORS......

Amen, there can be no rest in legalism, Only fear, or a false induced pride of how good one is to hide the fear.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I will point to this:

Matthew 22
15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words.
16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are.
17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax to Caesar or not?”

In terms of fruit (Matthew 7) Jesus is speaking of those who claim to lead, to have truth - prophets. He is speaking of works (miracles, casting of demons, etc) as not being all there is to know a sheep from a wolf. If how someone lives can't attest dogmatically to their goodness (tithing, fasting, all these things Jesus says are good, but that hypocrites do to hide their motives and innermost thoughts), then how is it you think you can judge a stranger's very soul on the text in these threads!

You honestly think that just believing and proclaiming "faith alone" means that you are saved? You honestly think that it is genuine love for Jesus to believe He alone saves, and yet you feel that others are damned when they don't believe this certain doctrine? (Faith Alone is not salvation, it is a doctrine of how one believes they come to Jesus - it is not Jesus Himself. It is an idea. It is a common, among other very common, ways of reading a book. That is what is utterly ridiculous about pushing such standards as absolute - it is about church tradition, more than it is about Christ Himself). And besides all this, Paul wasn't universally revered in the early church, as Jesus Himself was. In fact, his thoughts were largely ignored by some circles for quite some time. I don't think he has a monopoly on how to view and think of salvation.


And even in using this Matthew 22 Scripture, you realize that EVEN in terms of someone's obedience and reverence, you can't judge their hearts. I think Jesus is quite clear about this.


I am not talking about false gospel or the right gospel. I am talking of warning someone of hellfire solely because that person believes they should obey the Lord, and that it is essential to do so (in one's own conviction - no where have I seen support of harassment/legalism).

Which is what this boils down to. To continually disregard Jesus as Lord - that is, as One who tells you how you should live in addition to accepting His forgiveness - and say that has nothing to do with salvation or loyalty to Him, is to say that you can say the Sinner's Prayer and then you are set. If it really doesn't matter, why "make disciples and baptize" as Jesus commands? If being a Christian consists of obedience to the Lord, and it is essential as many of these Protestant churches attest, then how is it faith alone? (I think it'd be helpful if we defined faith)

If faith alone was all you needed to understand and follow the Lord, what is all this moral direction from St. Paul? Why does he, in honest assessment of all his writing, emphasis being faithful as well about having faith - because remember, these are largely churches who have heard the Gospel and accepted it.

Unless you want to support OSAS, which if that's the case, then I would say you're consistent in what you attest, because works really doesn't matter in that case. But you can't look into someone's heart and see if they are honestly struggling to master sin, or abiding in it. That's the point I'm getting at. For example, because someone struggles with outbursts of anger, and doesn't magically stop, doesn't mean they are not praying about it and trying to master it, even if it takes longer than you think it should. Everyone is different, have different struggles, different maturity levels in Christ, and different personalities that make struggles harder or easier depending on person.

But here, we're not even talking about works in damning someone to hell, but what they believe about understanding Christ and relating to Him. Mixing Law and Gospel, as a Lutheran would put it. But if you honestly absorb Paul's letters as a whole, it would appear he does the same thing. And all the Scriptures of Jesus' very words that loving Him means obeying Him posted here, has largely been ignored. What does it say, for these who claim Kenneth is hellbound, when they ignore the words of Christ Himself as convenient?

And, I think this is largely a lost cause, anyway, at least for now. It doesn't appear, as we are on page nine, that anyone is going to be persuaded of anything. Why keep going, and reiterating the same Scriptures from both sides? I like to say that it takes great talent to be a Nascar winner, because it takes talent to drive in circles without getting dizzy. I've been guilty of that, but it's a talent I prefer to shed. It's not an especially flattering one.

So, I'm unfollowing, as I don't really see anything new being stated, nor does anyone seem very open minded.

I'll leave you with a skill that Jesus alone has, and we would all do well to remember this:

John 2
23 Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His name when they saw the signs which He did.
24 But Jesus did not commit Himself to them, because He knew all men,
25 and had no need that anyone should testify of man, for He knew what was in man.

When one states that obedience to God is a requirement to salvation, or a requirement to keep salvation. Then they are teaching a false gospel.

It is not the same as saying a child of God needs to learn the things of God, and lean on him so he can be obedient. as a child of God wants to please his father.

One is justification by works,

One is sanctification.

they are not even close to being the same.

I am all for teaching how to be obedient to Gods will, and growing in Christ, and against remaining a babe in christ.

But when ones eternity is based on this. Then we as a body must do as paul did. and fight this, and judge this as a false gospel.

 

[dcontroversal]

When one states that obedience to God is a requirement to salvation, or a requirement to keep salvation. Then they are teaching a false gospel.

It is not the same as saying a child of God needs to learn the things of God, and lean on him so he can be obedient. as a child of God wants to please his father.

One is justification by works,

One is sanctification.

they are not even close to being the same.

I am all for teaching how to be obedient to Gods will, and growing in Christ, and against remaining a babe in christ.

But when ones eternity is based on this. Then we as a body must do as paul did. and fight this, and judge this as a false gospel.

Amen...a gospel of a different kind with no power to save whatsoever at al and double cursed by Paul in the letter to the Galatian assembly!