The Law as a School MASTER

[dcontroversal]

this is seen in the law. The mercy seat. When the priest sprinkles the blood over the mercy eat. the cherub se the blood. Not the things when were held against the Israelites (there sin) and this allowed God to forget the sins of the past year.

And in the Passover......When I see the blood I will pass over you! It was the death angel that passed over all who portrayed faith by the striking of the blood.......

 

[dcontroversal]

Amen, there can be no rest in legalism, Only fear, or a false induced pride of how good one is to hide the fear.

and don't forget the works and or adherence to the law...even though NO ONE can KEEP the whole law.......no assurance in that at all.....!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

and don't forget the works and or adherence to the law...even though NO ONE can KEEP the whole law.......no assurance in that at all.....!

thats why they water down the law. And make up their own requirement.

 

[Joshua_Generation]

Amen, there can be no rest in legalism, Only fear, or a false induced pride of how good one is to hide the fear.

I totally agree here and then you have those that say things like:

1) I am saved by grace, but the Law is still there for my benefit to know what is good and evil and to have a model to follow after

Not according to 2 Peter 1.1-11

2) I am a sinner saved by grace!

Hmmm OK, but you cannot be a sinner and saved by grace at the same time.

3) I am a sinner saved by grace and follow the law,but Jesus puts robes of righteousness on me anyway<<<<<<<watched a guy on a video preaching this nonsense just today.

The worst are those that preach/teach righteousness then let things like this slip out:

You bette rbe in church whenever the doors are open or you wont know God...

The works based self righteous crowd needs our prayers.

 

[gotime]

Its real simple really.

old man dies in Christ, dead people do not sin or do good.

Christ lives in us, Jesus does not sin but does good.

All by faith in Christ's death and resurrection.

No legalism there and no works of the flesh there.

 

[Dorcas]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT] [FONT=&quot]All scripture is inspired by God, therefore we cannot ignore scriptures that don’t go along with our line of thinking.
I agree that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law covenant.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot](Romans 7:6)[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Ephesians 2:15) I also agree that we cannot earn salvation by any works which would include upholding the Mosaic Law or any other works, such as being kind and helpful to others. Salvation is a gift from God. (Romans 6:23) We must have faith in Christ Jesus to obtain everlasting life. (John 3:16)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But there are other scriptures that we cannot ignore. Please take the time to carefully read James chapter 2. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]True faith would move us to love and help each other. To be clear I am not saying that we can earn salvation through works. We demonstrate our faith by our works. Works are important part of being a Christian. Jesus said that his followers would be known by the love they show for one another. It is not good enough just to have faith because even the demons have that.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
James 2:18,19 But someone might argue, “Some people have faith, and others have good works.” My answer would be that you can’t show me your faith if you don’t do anything. But I will show you my faith by the good I do.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe there is one God. That’s good, but even the demons believe that! And they shake with fear[/FONT][FONT=&quot].[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[dcontroversal]

All scripture is inspired by God, therefore we cannot ignore scriptures that don’t go along with our line of thinking.
I agree that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law covenant.(Romans 7:6) (Ephesians 2:15) I also agree that we cannot earn salvation by any works which would include upholding the Mosaic Law or any other works, such as being kind and helpful to others. Salvation is a gift from God. (Romans 6:23) We must have faith in Christ Jesus to obtain everlasting life. (John 3:16)

But there are other scriptures that we cannot ignore. Please take the time to carefully read James chapter 2.
True faith would move us to love and help each other. To be clear I am not saying that we can earn salvation through works. We demonstrate our faith by our works. Works are important part of being a Christian. Jesus said that his followers would be known by the love they show for one another. It is not good enough just to have faith because even the demons have that.


James 2:18,19 But someone might argue, “Some people have faith, and others have good works.” My answer would be that you can’t show me your faith if you don’t do anything. But I will show you my faith by the good I do. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe there is one God. That’s good, but even the demons believe that! And they shake with fear.

Believing that there is one God and having faith into the finished work of Jesus is two entirely different things.....

James speaks of showing and or proving your inward, invisible faith before MEN by our works......No one who believes in eternal security denies the fact that a tree is known by the fruit that it bears and as a child of God we are to produce works that are consistent with being a child of God.......

Paul also states that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.......<----before God!

 

[Joshua_Generation]

All scripture is inspired by God, therefore we cannot ignore scriptures that don’t go along with our line of thinking.
I agree that Christians are no longer under the Mosaic Law covenant.(Romans 7:6) (Ephesians 2:15) I also agree that we cannot earn salvation by any works which would include upholding the Mosaic Law or any other works, such as being kind and helpful to others. Salvation is a gift from God. (Romans 6:23) We must have faith in Christ Jesus to obtain everlasting life. (John 3:16)

But there are other scriptures that we cannot ignore. Please take the time to carefully read James chapter 2.
True faith would move us to love and help each other. To be clear I am not saying that we can earn salvation through works. We demonstrate our faith by our works. Works are important part of being a Christian. Jesus said that his followers would be known by the love they show for one another. It is not good enough just to have faith because even the demons have that.


James 2:18,19 But someone might argue, “Some people have faith, and others have good works.” My answer would be that you can’t show me your faith if you don’t do anything. But I will show you my faith by the good I do. [SUP]19 [/SUP]You believe there is one God. That’s good, but even the demons believe that! And they shake with fear.

Be careful suggesting demons have faith. Belief in the one true God and faith in Jesus redemptive work are 2 very different things.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Seems like people are just having a problem understanding what faith without works is dead means.

GOD does not need to see physical works.Faith pleases GOD,but men look at the outward appearances and if their faith is true they will do good works.

 

[kennethcadwell]

I have never been to any church that gives the impression you can act as you like as long as you believe Jesus died for you. I have been to a lot of churches, but never one that came close to preaching that, or inferring it. In the church I spent my youth in, they relentlessly preached a very high standard indeed as to how you must live, the inference was ,if it was not attained to your salvation was in jeapordy. I simply became a worse sinner, and the core of the church came from the more affluent half of society and the more academically gifted half also.

Grace is a hard thing for most to accept it seems. Only when a person knows Christ paid the price of all their sins at Calvary, past, present and future can they truly see great victory over sin. It is not a license to sin, for the new covenant hinges on two core facts, not one. In the church of my youth, none of this was explained, nor did they tell us you are not under la law of righteousness, and that included the Ten Commandments.
I have found the most dangerous churches are ones that most stress Holy living but do not fully and forthrightly preach the grace of the Bible. They are mainly filled with the better off financially, and the more academically gifted. Why is that? Because these people on the whole(though not always) come from more loving, secure homes. Therefore, statistically they are less likely(though not always) to use foul language, have extra marital affairs, smoke or get drunk.
You see Kenneth, what you really believe is your sin is excusable as you do not commit what you consider ''unacceptable sins'' Therefore on that basis you will attain Heaven. That is what the vast majority of church goers believe, and is why we have a watered down version of the Gospel message that leaves many churches half empty and with people predominantly from one side of society

Well that is not true as you say, as I believe all sin is unacceptable and not excusable, and I preach constantly against those who try to excuse their sins. I do not make sins acceptable as others have done, which is why I constantly preach and warn people the need to confess future sins to be forgiven of them.
The bible says that Jesus crucifixion was for all sins, but it comes down to also what the bible says about how we receive that remission of our sins through Jesus Christ that some seem to want to keep and leave off. They want to erase Romans 3:25 and 2 Peter 1:9 from scriptures that says only past sins are given remission, and then they want to erase 1 John 1:9 that says confession has to be made to receive remission for future sins.
I do not know where you get the impression that I believe some sins are excusable, which I do not. I even call people out for their misuse of 1 John 5:16 where they try and make this scripture say some sins are acceptable and others are not. Or they use it to say you can commit some sins and not face the lake of fire, but others you will. Both are false teaching as the concept here is that the sins that do not lead to death are those that have been confessed in prayer for forgiveness yet the person is still struggling in their attempt to stop committing it as some sins are harder to stop as quick as others.

Each person is different and a sin that one maybe able to stop doing in the matter of a day or two may take another a month to a year to stop. The issue is that they are at least working through the Spirit to change their lives.
The other thing we can not ignore from scripture is how Jesus and the Holy Spirit both say many will fall away from the faith, and Paul constantly says we must keep ourselves in His grace/kindness to receive eternal life. Even in Hebrews that I previously mentioned says there will be those who draw back to perdition. Perdition means spiritual death or eternal damnation......

 

[dcontroversal]

Each person is different and a sin that one maybe able to stop doing in the matter of a day or two may take another a month to a year to stop. The issue is that they are at least working through the Spirit to change their lives.
The other thing we can not ignore from scripture is how Jesus and the Holy Spirit both say many will fall away from the faith, and Paul constantly says we must keep ourselves in His grace/kindness to receive eternal life. Even in Hebrews that I previously mentioned says there will be those who draw back to perdition. Perdition means spiritual death or eternal damnation......

One of these days you will find out that your heretical dogma of being able to lose salvation was false....unfortunately it will be too late for you to accept the truth that salvation, justification and eternal life is given the moment one actually trusts into Christ.....unfortunately you trust your works, your self and your ability to KEEP yourself saved. What you teach above is a lie straight from the devil.......!

 

[kennethcadwell]

You do not teach what paul taught my friend. Paul taught eternal security in Christ, not by works lest anyone should be puffed up in pride. That we are sealed by the spirit who is our guarantee. That we were justified freely, not by works of righteousness which we have done, That God took the condemnation due to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to the cross. That we have eternal life, Not the conditional life you are preaching.

Nothing you teach even closely resembles what paul taught, Paul condemned your gospel. and you can not even see it.


You do not even see why they went back in the firt place. They went back because it is what they truly had faith in, They never trusted Christ, if they did, they never would have departed from that faith. A psuedo false faith does not save you and never will. as James said, the dead faith has never saved anyone. And as peter said, a Dog returns to his own vomit, why? He was still a dog. He was never made a new creature, he just tried to play new games, and decided he did not like the game (following Christ) he was more comfortable in his true lifetyle, which was sin, and separation from God.



This is the only part we agree on, And I can't even understand you can claim this, yet you do not believe it, Because you say all these things empowered by God, and kept in line by God can fail,

Can God fail? Not according to scripture.

"he who BEGAN A GOOD WORK in YOU WILL CONTINUE IT until the day of christ"

No may continue, no may fail, He will complete his work.

It also says this.

And has PERFECTED FOREVER those who are BEING SANCTIFIED.

It does not say he is trying to sanctify people so he can perfect them when they get to heaven, It says he has already perfected forever those who he is in the process of growing to be more like Christ.

Again, why do you deny the power of God?

If you kept your final point you would be in aggrement with the word of God, and believe as we do. But you have to many false points added to it, which contradicts is, and calls God a liar. so you can not agree with god

I am trying to show you this as best as I can yet you and a few others keep constantly wanting to label any works as all wrong and terrible things to do. Paul taught eternal life comes at the end after you have endured just as Jesus taught, not that you already have physical possession of right now. Paul only preached that you have mental assurance of it right now.

Apostle Paul says are salvation is nearer then when we first believed in the Lord (Romans 13:11).
I have mentioned over 25 scriptures from the bible where Paul, Peter, and Jude all say that only if you keep yourself in the faith and under God's grace do you receive eternal life. They did not preach eternal security from day one of faith in the Lord as you and a few others claim, and as a matter of fact I have posted a study that the early church did not teach an OSAS doctrine.
Apostle Paul did not warn believers over and over and over again if it did not matter for our salvation.

The Galatians did not go back to justification by the law because that is what their faith was always in. They went back to the law by following the teachings from false teachers, as that is why Galatians said they went back. Even Paul points out how they have been bewitched by these false teachers, and calls out Peter for letting it happen.

I did not say we do not fail or we will not sin, but the sin is our own doing as we our drawn away from our fellowship with the Lord by giving into our lusts. We regain that fellowship by repenting/confessing that sin to receive remission through Christ for it. What I do not agree with is those who say we sin the same sins constantly everyday, as that would mean as the bible shows you are denying the Holy Spirit.
A born again believer can not have it both ways; You can not abide in Christ, and abide in sin everyday, as only one can be your master.

 

[Dorcas]

Be careful suggesting demons have faith. Belief in the one true God and faith in Jesus redemptive work are 2 very different things.[/QUOTE

What I meant by saying the demons have faith is simply that they believe and know without a doubt who Jesus and God are. One of the definitions of faith in the dictionary is the belief in God. Obviously they don't worship or obey God. Sorry for using the word faith I should have said believe. But read the scripture I quoted it still compares the person without works to a demon who believes in God. Not much good to believe in God if you don't show it in your daily life.

 

[kennethcadwell]

One of these days you will find out that your heretical dogma of being able to lose salvation was false....unfortunately it will be too late for you to accept the truth that salvation, justification and eternal life is given the moment one actually trusts into Christ.....unfortunately you trust your works, your self and your ability to KEEP yourself saved. What you teach above is a lie straight from the devil.......!

You can say what you want, but I have constantly shown you over 25 scriptures that say exactly what you put in bold and underlined from the previous statement. The early church that were given and had the direct teachings from the Apostles did not believe in a OSAS doctrine either, and I have posted in the past many of the early church leaders quotes.

Since you believe your doctrine is right and mine is wrong answer me this;

Why does Apostle Paul in every one of his epistles warn believers of sin in their lives if like you say ones actions/works do not matter ???
(And don't give that faulty loss of rewards debate, because not all scriptures on the subject are not about rewards.)

Second you believe in OSAS which means no condemnation to those who are in Christ, yet you constantly use remarks to others in the manner that they are condemned. Yet the ones you are stating this to, not only just profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but also so fully love Him that they defend every jot and title in scripture that He has said.

 

[Dorcas]

This all boils down to the theory of OSAS. Again why do we ignore bible scriptures that we don't like. (Matthew 10:22) [SUP]22[/SUP] And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.
Jesus said you must endure to the end. What does that mean to you?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Seems like people are just having a problem understanding what faith without works is dead means.

GOD does not need to see physical works.Faith pleases GOD,but men look at the outward appearances and if their faith is true they will do good works.

I have a question for you then if God does not need to one to show their faith in works, why does Matthew 25 and Luke 12:43-48 both cast those who do not do into the lake of fire. Both groups are believers or called servants, and in Luke Jesus says when He comes those He finds not doing God's will in their lives by still treating others wrongfully then He will cut them in two and appoint them a place in the lake of fire with the unbelievers. He even says those disobedient servants of His will be punished more then those who never knew Him.

 

[kennethcadwell]

This all boils down to the theory of OSAS. Again why do we ignore bible scriptures that we don't like. (Matthew 10:22) [SUP]22[/SUP] And you will be hated by all people on account of my name, but the one who has endured to the end will be saved.
Jesus said you must endure to the end. What does that mean to you?

This depends on who answers you on this, as I have used this scripture many of times to prove the endurance goes with salvation. Yet some will tell you the saved here has nothing to do with salvation, but if that be the case then that means it must be saying they will be saved through the persecutions they face here on earth while in the flesh. Once again this would be easily proven wrong by the Apostles outcomes;

Peter- crucified upside down


Paul- beheaded


Matthew- slain by a halberd


John- exiled on Patmos

James- put to deat by the sword by Herod Agrippa ( Acts 12:2 )


Andrew- crucified by Roman Governor, Aegeas( Aegeates )
{ bound not nailed to cross to prolong suffering }


Bartholomew- beaten with rods and then beheaded


James, son of Alpheus- beaten, stoned, then clubbed to death


Thomas- thrust through with spears, tortured with red hot plates, and then burned alive.


Philip- tortured, stoned, crucified upside down


Simon- crucified and/or sawed in half


Judas Thaddeus- beaten to death in Mesopotamia


Judas- committed suicide for betraying Jesus


Matthias- (replaced Judas) stoned to death

 

[kennethcadwell]

Apostle Paul's Words



Romans 2:6-10


Who will render to every man according to his deeds:


To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:


But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;


But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

 

[dcontroversal]

You can say what you want, but I have constantly shown you over 25 scriptures that say exactly what you put in bold and underlined from the previous statement. The early church that were given and had the direct teachings from the Apostles did not believe in a OSAS doctrine either, and I have posted in the past many of the early church leaders quotes.

Since you believe your doctrine is right and mine is wrong answer me this;

Why does Apostle Paul in every one of his epistles warn believers of sin in their lives if like you say ones actions/works do not matter ???
(And don't give that faulty loss of rewards debate, because not all scriptures on the subject are not about rewards.)

Second you believe in OSAS which means no condemnation to those who are in Christ, yet you constantly use remarks to others in the manner that they are condemned. Yet the ones you are stating this to, not only just profess Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but also so fully love Him that they defend every jot and title in scripture that He has said.

First and foremost what you teach is a gospel of a different kind with no power to save as you mix works and faith to keep salvation which is a false gospel.......

Second...There are numerous scriptures and parables which prove one can squander his inheritance by riotous living, lose rewards, be chastised and even physically killed for rebellion and willful sin WITHOUT LOSING SALVATION

Third...The bible clearly teaches that salvation, justification, sanctification (positionally) and ETERNAL LIFE are given IMMEDIATELY upon acceptance and belief into CHRIST as it is the SPIRIT THAT IS BORN OF GOD, DOES NOT SIN, IS ETERNALLY SAVED AND SEALED by the SPIRIT and in the HAND OF CHRIST and of the FATHER.....

FOURTH...THERE is only 1 (ONE) correct message of salvation and if you teach and believe a FALSE GOSPEL which HAS NO POWER so SAVE then the OUTCOME is OBVIOUS!

SALVATION, JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION and ETERNAL LIFE are ALL BASED UPON the COMPLETE WORK of CHRIST...we cannot HELP him KEEP OURSELVES SAVED as he alone is the one who takes of our eternal standing......

1. I could care less what EARLY church (leaders) believed and or taught as John makes it clear that many false teachers and those against Christ were already operational at that time.
2. There are hundreds of scriptures in Context that contradict what you teach
3. NOT EVERY PLACE the word save or saved is used is INDICATIVE of soul salvation.....

JESUS begun the WORK and JESUS will FINISH THE WORK

THOSE who have entered into HIS REST have CEASED from their OWN LABORS!

Kenneth at the end of the day the bible teaches clearly......

GENUINE FAITH SAVES ETERNALLY, JUSTIFIES ETERNALLY, SANCTIFIES ETERNALLY (POSITIONALLY) and GIVE ETERNAL/EVERLASTING SPIRITUAL LIFE before the throne of GOD.......

WE cannot earn it, keep it, facilitate it as it is based upon CHRIST and his WORK!

YES a saved child of God will produce FRUIT, will work for GOD and will have PROOF that they are genuinely SAVED, but the WORKS will not save, keep saved, help get saved, facilitate salvation PERIOD!

What does whatsoever mean KENNETH?

My bible teaches the following about the word whatsoever....

WHATSOEVER GOD DOES IT IS ETERNAL...NOTHING ADDED, NOTHING TAKEN AWAY FROM IT and HE DOES THIS SO MEN MAY FEAR BEFORE HIM......

THIS APPLIES unto SALVATION, JUSTIFICATION, SANCTIFICATION and ETERNAL LIFE.........PERIOD!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Believing that there is one God and having faith into the finished work of Jesus is two entirely different things.....

James speaks of showing and or proving your inward, invisible faith before MEN by our works......No one who believes in eternal security denies the fact that a tree is known by the fruit that it bears and as a child of God we are to produce works that are consistent with being a child of God.......

Paul also states that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.......<----before God!

I totally agree with this last statement because Paul did say this that we are justified without the deeds of the law, but Paul also says that justification alone is not what saves us unto salvation. As he shows that the justification is by faith, and with confession we are saved. Showing you can not have one without the other, faith that keeps the teachings of the Lord to where one walks in them in their life is what saves.

Romans 10:10
For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.