Gentile Christians sharing the Gospel with Jews

Jeff_56 · Mar 12, 2015

cool. yes. we ("WE") establish the law.

Now, for those others who are opposed to what Yahweh reveals and is in line with all of His Word >>

(1) we
(2) establish
(3) the
(4) (5) (6) (7) law

for those who deny yahshua and want to change the simple meaning of scripture here too,

I numbered the words so if you want to (as you all have in thousands of other posts) you may more easily proceed

to offer your definitions of (1) through (7) as if that will make any difference.

we don't have john, peter, james, paul, here to moderate the false gospels away out gone quietly or in any way, so

everyone else who is actually and truly seeking truth please please please realize that you must personally and fully trust GOD through GRACE by FAITH in JESUS, and do it AS HE SAYS --

which of

course means and includes being becoming like little children if anyone ever wants to even see the kingdom of heaven.

Elin · Mar 12, 2015

sparty-g said:

Elin said:

sparty-g said:

The other is the unconditional Abrahmaic covenant of the Promise based on faith.

The promises were spoken to Abraham and to Christ.
Those in Christ through faith inherit the blessings promised to Abraham; i.e., the heavenly city of God.

Those in Christ are not the children of the bond woman (the law), but of the free woman (the promise),
and are not in bondage to the law, but are children of the unconditional promise who live by faith.

Did you forget about this?

Jeff_56 · Mar 12, 2015

forget about what ?

sparty-g · Mar 12, 2015

Elin said:

No, I have not forgotten about it, but I've been working and haven't had the opportunity to put together a thoughtful response. I'll try tonight, if not tomorrow night.

Elin · Mar 12, 2015

sparty-g said:

Thanks.

Didn't mean to pressure you.

Take your time.

just-me · Mar 12, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

I haven't been on this chat for some time so I don't quite understand the numbering of 1 thru 7 in your post. If you would like to PM me and explain I would very much appreciate it for my enlightenment please.

Would it have to do with the Hebrew alphabet or the spiritual value of the numbers according to Jewish values? I do know that the language is 4 dimensional unlike all others on earth.

Eva1218 · Mar 12, 2015

At the very beginning GOD had the Jews in the forefront as HIS people. When the Jews began to back away from GOD the GOD they know as a jealous GOD, GOD has blinded them for a period of time. (Romans 11). So therefore only GOD can lift their eyes to see. We are not to disregard them by not sharing the Gospel but we must understand that there are those who are blinded by GOD and will not turn to HIM until the time where GOD shall allow them to see.

Blessings!!!!!!!

just-me · Mar 12, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

Romans 3:31b (KJV) we establish the law (Greek “histemi” for establish) is to cause or make to stand, to place, put, set

to bid to stand by, [set up]
1. in the presence of others, in the midst, before judges, before members of the Sanhedrin;
2. to place
to make firm, fix establish
1. to cause a person or a thing to keep his or its place
2. to stand, be kept intact (of family, a kingdom), to escape in safety
3. to establish a thing, cause it to stand
CJB says “confirm”

אנו מאשרים תורה = we confirm Torah

Confirmed in us by God's character being revealed i.e. His Name

מ = from
אש = fire
רים = rim = related to the mind of a baptized believer, giving of themselves in worship
אשרים= confirm/establish

תו רה = Reference to character = re character
תורה= Torah = revealed character of Yahweh

This research tells me that this phrase used by Paul is in close relation to what John the Baptist/immerser said in Matthew 3:11 “I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:”

just-me · Mar 12, 2015

Eva1218 said:

I agree wholeheartedly! Some day it will happen. The Bible talks about grafting them back into the olive tree. They are the original branches and we are grafted in, as Gentiles, and once upon a time we were wild branches.

Romans 11:17-24
[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

Psalm 94:14For the Lord will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.

Romans 11:1-7
1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

We should have the mind of Christ and exhibit the same form of love and grace to those who Paul says were blinded.

1 Kings 19:10 & 18
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And he said, I have been very jealous for the Lord God of hosts: for the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Elin · Mar 12, 2015

Jeff_56 said:

Yes, we establish the law when our just condemnation under it is reversed by the mercy of God through faith in Christ.

crossnote · Mar 12, 2015

Elin said:

Based on God's trustworthy promise...received by faith.

crossnote · Mar 12, 2015

just-me said:

Context trumps individual word definitions any day. The whole context of Rom 3 is justification by faith apart from the law but by sleight of hand you turn it to mean that 'we' actually uphold the law through keeping it by faith.

Romans 3:28-31
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

sparty-g · Mar 12, 2015

Elin said:

Hi Elin. I started a new thread so as not to derail this one. It's a long one, but the basic gist of it is this: The verse says that the Sinai covenant bears children who are to be slaves. This doesn't mean the Torah and its commands are bondage. Sin is bondage and the Torah was given to guide the Israelites with regard to sin, not put the recently freed Jewish slaves back into bondage. However, the Sinai covenant does not effectively deal with the power of sin, thus its children come under bondage when they transgress the Torah. The new covenant in the Messiah has dealt with the problem of sin. Moreover, anyone attempting to merit their salvation through their own efforts by undergoing ritual circumcision (which is the context of the letter) submits themselves to the full authority of the Torah, which includes the full extent of its punishment, which ultimately is death since no one can keep it perfectly. They forsake the grace of God and the atoning sacrifice of the Messiah by relying on their own efforts instead of His work, and are thus not covered by the Messiah's redemption. For those of us in the Messiah, we are not "under the Torah," which means we are not subject to its full authority or the curse, which is the penalty of death, because the Messiah has paid that price for us.

Please see the new thread for more details and to continue this discussion.

just-me · Mar 13, 2015

A Legalist or non Messianic Jew can never be won over to believe Jesus Christ is the true Messiah if all they ever hear from professing Christians is that they're wrong by being a devout law observer according to the way they esteem our Creator.

just-us-2 · Mar 13, 2015

just-me said:

That's a fact! And we are told to ALWAYS manifest the fruit of the Spirit - the mind of Christ - however one wants to think about it.
Philippians 4:5 (Complete Jewish Bible): "Let everyone see how reasonable and gentle you are. The Lord is near!"
(New American Standard: "Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near.
(KJV) "Let your moderation be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.

Elin · Mar 13, 2015

sparty-g said:

Thanks.

Yes, it means the Law is bondage to its condemnation for transgression of it.

The bondage of sin is irrelevant without something (the Law) which subjects sin to condemnation.
There was no Law between Adam and Moses and, therefore, sin was not taken into account during that time.
There was no bondage to condemnation of the Law from Adam to Moses.

Agreed.

But if there were no Law, the power of sin would be irrelevant because it would not result in bondage to condemnation.

And since all are guilty of transgressing the Law, all are in bondage to its condemnation.

It is in Christ alone that we are freed from that bondage.

What is the link to your thread?

sparty-g · Mar 13, 2015

Hi Elin. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. You can find the new thread here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/109587-gal-4-21-31-hagar-sarah-two-sons-two-covenants.html

If you'd like, you can either repost this latest message of yours in that new thread and we can pick up the discussion there, or we can start from whatever you post in response to that new thread. Either way, I have very little free time for a meaningful comment between now and probably Monday, but I'll try to find whatever time I can between now and then so that we can keep this discussion going. No promises but I'll see what I can do before Monday-ish.

Brother_Don · Mar 13, 2015

Romans 15:5-7, Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be like-minded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Wherefore receive ye one-another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

Brother_Don · Mar 13, 2015

2 Corinthians 4:6, For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. Genesis 1:3, 2Peter 1:19, 1Peter 2:9

just-me · Mar 13, 2015

Brother_Don said:

It wasn't long ago that Genesis 1:3-5 grabbed my attention along with verse 14-19 of the same chapter. Thanks for your input brother!

[SUP]Genesis 1:3-5 [/SUP]And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

[SUP]15 [/SUP]And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
[SUP]18 [/SUP]And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

Before the sun was the Son!

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