Christian therapeutic Moral Deism

[thecreationtutor]

I have been doing a Bible study by Matt Chandler - the Explicit Gospel


The post title I find to be most engaging, because there are a lot of people in churches, on here and so on that if you pay attention to their arguments, they present a Moral Deism

Sinless Perfectionists
KJV onlists
Pretrib only
Postrib only
Calvanism vs Arminianism

These topics, you see a lot of "moral superiority" type arguments and a lot of Banning, They think that their opinion is salvation, that if you don't hold to their opinion you must not be saved/

They constantly argue these points because it is their salvation, not Jesus Christ. So they pour hours into arguing their little point justifying themselves each time they argue - Works based salvation for their ideal.

Their argument is an Ultimate, not Chirst Crucified and risen for me, which is sad

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

2 Timothy 3:1-9"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was."

 

[Jason0047]

The whole concept of being forgiven with anyone in this life involves one in asking for forgiveness with them and in not doing that crime or sin towards them again. Granted, we are not perfect. But we do not willing do evil things with the thinking we are saved. That doesn't make any sense. Can you cheat on your wife and have any hope of forgiveness if you don't say your sorry and you don't stop in your cheating? What do you think is going to happen in your relationship with your wife if you continue to cheat on her (And she finds out about it)? The relationship in time will end (If she has any value and respect for herself). For how can you be forgiven if your actions show you really have no real care or concern that you are forgiven or not? Do you really think God's people can get away with doing evil in God's name (By not upholding any morals whatsoever)? Can believers really continue in sin because they are not under the Law? Paul answers that question with.... "God forbid" in Romans 6. For Paul says, be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. In fact, Paul says there are certain type of people who will not inherit the Kingdom of God several times and he lists various sins to identify them, such as murder, hate, fornication, stealing, lying, and drunkenness, etc. For how can you tell the good guys from the bad guys when you turn on the news or watch a movie? Is it by the fact that they have a belief alone on Jesus? I don't think so. You know evil people do evil things. It's morality 101. In fact, Jesus is in agreement with this. Jesus essentially says a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (and vise versa). As a matter of fact, Jesus identifies false prophets (believers) by essentially saying we will know them by their fruits. Jesus first words in his ministry were "Repent." Scripture also says that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to look at Jonah 3, you would see that repentance involved turning from their evil ways.

 

[Jason0047]

2 Timothy 3:1-9"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as their's also was."

In the last times there will be those who are heady, high minded, boasters, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection. This perfectly describes the Antinomian (i.e. those who ignore the moral law). They think they can sin and still be saved. Godliness has no connection with salvation for them. But we both know, it doesn't work like that. God's people are loving and good, and they are not evil. For what is being discussed by Paul in the passage above? Paul is talking about how a certain group of believers are not upholding a standard of goodness (i.e. morals).

 

[Jason0047]

In fact, in 1 Timothy 6:3-4 Paul essentially says that if any teaches contrary to the doctrine of Godliness and the words of Jesus Christ is proud and they know nothing. Here are Paul's words directly from Scripture (that says this):

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, ..."

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

In the last times there will be those who are heady, high minded, boasters, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection. This perfectly describes the Antinomian (i.e. those who ignore the moral law). They think they can sin and still be saved. Godliness has no connection with salvation for them. But we both know, it doesn't work like that. God's people are loving and good, and they are not evil. For what is being discussed by Paul in the passage above? Paul is talking about how a certain group of believers are not upholding a standard of goodness (i.e. morals).

Like the "man of sin" being revealed in our time.

 

[MarcR]

I have been doing a Bible study by Matt Chandler - the Explicit Gospel


The post title I find to be most engaging, because there are a lot of people in churches, on here and so on that if you pay attention to their arguments, they present a Moral Deism

Sinless Perfectionists
KJV onlists
Pretrib only
Postrib only
Calvanism vs Arminianism

These topics, you see a lot of "moral superiority" type arguments and a lot of Banning, They think that their opinion is salvation, that if you don't hold to their opinion you must not be saved/

They constantly argue these points because it is their salvation, not Jesus Christ. So they pour hours into arguing their little point justifying themselves each time they argue - Works based salvation for their ideal.

Their argument is an Ultimate, not Chirst Crucified and risen for me, which is sad

This is an interesting point of view. I am not sure I buy into it.

I do find many people arguing from the perspective of personal infallibility; as if another perspective is unworthy of their attention. I am not sure whether this springs from moral deism or from a compulsion to be right. Perhaps they do not realize that sometimes the best way to be right is to be persuaded.

 

[Jason0047]

Concerning sinless perfectionism
(And or upholding basic morals - Which is a part of loving others):

Jesus said, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Matthew 5:48).

"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:13-16).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God;" (Hebrews 12:14-15).

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

"He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:14-15)."He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." (1 John 2:10-11).

"If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:6-7).

"My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" (1 John 2:1). "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit." (Romans 8:5). "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:1).

"For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God." (Romans 8:6-8).

"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23).

"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts." (Galatians 5:24).

"Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil;" (1 John 3:7-8).

 

[Jason0047]

Like the "man of sin" being revealed in our time.

Well, I believe the church will be Raptured before the Antichrist appears. But yeah, the "man of sin" is the climax of all of man's sinfulness. People will be deceived by him (Including many self professing believers who around after the Rapture). I mean, the "man of sin" will be doing evil, and false believers and or those who fell away from the faith will be doing evil. In other words, in the End Times, evil will unite with evil under the devil's kingdom.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Well, I believe the church will be Raptured before the Antichrist appears. But yeah, the "man of sin" is the climax of all of man's sinfulness. People will be deceived by him (Including many self professing believers who around after the Rapture). I mean, the "man of sin" will be doing evil, and false believers and or those who fell away from the faith will be doing evil. In other words, in the End Times, evil will unite with evil under the devil's kingdom.

The antichrist has come as is also confirmed in scripture, and "it" works in many deceivers; just as the man of sin speaks of "many" who are currently being deceived by the evil Prince of this world.

 

[Jason0047]

The antichrist has come as is also confirmed in scripture, and "it" works in many deceivers; just as the man of sin speaks of "many" who are currently being deceived by the evil Prince of this world.

The spirit of the antichrist worked within many even back in Paul's time; Hence, why he said there are many antichrists. But that does not mean the "man of sin" existed back in Paul's time. The "man of sin" is the antichrist. He will enforce the mark of the beast upon people and slaughter tons of Christians and or any who refuse the mark. It will make the slaughter of the Jews during WW2 look like a small event by comparison.

 

[Jason0047]

Anyways, I believe the Scriptures clearly teach that if a person is saved, they will not habitually do evil or sin (Such as murdering, hating, fornicating, stealing, lying, etc.). Granted, we are not saved by works (Ephesians 2:8-9); However, good fruit is the natural result of having been saved, though. For God is the source of our salvation both in Justification and in Sanctification. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). So salvation is a person. Salvation is not a belief alone, nor is salvation in what you do. Salvation is abiding with Jesus Christ; And if Christ lives within you, then good fruit and not bad fruit will flow thru your life. If a professing believer does evil, they are showing that they have not truly accepted Christ and or they have backslidden into sin. If such is the case, then they need to repent of their sins and accept Christ for real, and or they need to renew their faith back in Him.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

The spirit of the antichrist worked within many even back in Paul's time; Hence, why he said there are many antichrists. But that does not mean the "man of sin" existed back in Paul's time. The "man of sin" is the antichrist. He will enforce the mark of the beast upon people and slaughter tons of Christians and or any who refuse the mark. It will make the slaughter of the Jews during WW2 look like a small event by comparison.

That makes for a good Hollywood movie, but is not based on scripture.

We are told in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” The falling away mentioned here by Paul has to do with the saints of God being overcome by the lies and deception of the Devil, and by his spirit, which is the spirit of a lie. This spirit of a lie is also shown as the false prophet spirit which works in many (many deceivers.)

Paul was playing off the words of Jesus when he referred to “that man” and “son of perdition” in the above verse. But this is not to be misunderstood as a single individual man yet to come in the future, but rather it speaks of the sin nature of man being raised back up again in the world, and also in the man-made church system. This is symbolized in the book of Revelation as the beast that comes up out of the bottomless pit, that was dead, but is being made alive again in the hearts and minds of many.

Notice how Jesus refers to a whole wicked generation as “a man” and “ that man” (like Paul said) here in Matthew 12:43-45 “When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”

Now notice the wording Jesus used showing the “last state of that man” compared to Peters concerning this same falling away in 2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

This being overcome is shown here in Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” So this spirit of deception and lies would also overcome the saints as is also confirmed here in Daniel 7:21 “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;” That horn is the tail of the red Dragon, which speaks of the spirit of a lie working in all the world to practice and prosper and cast the truth and some of the host to the ground.

So was Paul talking about a single man, or a whole wicked generation like Jesus said? Well if you read the whole chapter in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Clearly Paul was speaking of more than one "man of sin"

 

[Jason0047]

As for believing the Kng James is the divinely inspired perfect Word of God: Well, I do not believe it is a salvation issue. Granted, I think it would not be good for a believer to attack those who believe in a perfect Word of God, though. For if they get into the realm of hating their brethren over this, then we would be venturing into the territory of being a likened to a murderer (And we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them). However, I believe if there is no hate involved in discussing this topic, I do not believe it is an issue pertaining to soteriology, though. But I believe they will have to answer to God for making others doubt His Word, though. For my faith was briefly put into doubt or question when I was confronted with someone trying to attack the King James (i.e. God's Word).

 

[Jason0047]

That makes for a good Hollywood movie, but is not based on scripture.

We are told in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” The falling away mentioned here by Paul has to do with the saints of God being overcome by the lies and deception of the Devil, and by his spirit, which is the spirit of a lie. This spirit of a lie is also shown as the false prophet spirit which works in many (many deceivers.)

Paul was playing off the words of Jesus when he referred to “that man” and “son of perdition” in the above verse. But this is not to be misunderstood as a single individual man yet to come in the future, but rather it speaks of the sin nature of man being raised back up again in the world, and also in the man-made church system. This is symbolized in the book of Revelation as the beast that comes up out of the bottomless pit, that was dead, but is being made alive again in the hearts and minds of many.

Notice how Jesus refers to a whole wicked generation as “a man” and “ that man” (like Paul said) here in Matthew 12:43-45 “When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.[SUP]44 [/SUP]Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.[SUP]45 [/SUP]Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.”

Now notice the wording Jesus used showing the “last state of that man” compared to Peters concerning this same falling away in 2 Peter 2:20-22 “For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.”

This being overcome is shown here in Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.” So this spirit of deception and lies would also overcome the saints as is also confirmed here in Daniel 7:21 “I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;” That horn is the tail of the red Dragon, which speaks of the spirit of a lie working in all the world to practice and prosper and cast the truth and some of the host to the ground.

So was Paul talking about a single man, or a whole wicked generation like Jesus said? Well if you read the whole chapter in 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 “And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:[SUP]12 [/SUP]That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

Clearly Paul was speaking of more than one "man of sin"

Well, I don't want to turn this thread into an Eschatology type debate.

But if you are interested, here is my explanation on 2 Thessalonians 2.

2 Thessalonians 2 and the Pre-Trib Rapture and the Day of the Lord.

 

[pem]

Well, I believe the church will be Raptured before the Antichrist appears. But yeah, the "man of sin" is the climax of all of man's sinfulness. People will be deceived by him (Including many self professing believers who around after the Rapture). I mean, the "man of sin" will be doing evil, and false believers and or those who fell away from the faith will be doing evil. In other words, in the End Times, evil will unite with evil under the devil's kingdom.

We are in the End Times now - since Calvary . You been reading to much hal lindsay end time fiction

 

[thecreationtutor]

The point is that we are just Moral - thought that will happen - many people take morality to equate salvation, and that their beliefs on certain issues are the moral superior to those who do not agree

Salvation is not just a moral issue - but a heart transformation - leaven that affects the whole lump, only 1 good context leaven is talked about - in Matthew 13

The rest leaven is talked about negatively - sin ruins us, has ruined us, will ruin us - the Gospel is desperately needed to the lost and the saved - Paul preached it to himself and others - this is the need

 

[Jason0047]

We are in the End Times now - since Calvary . You been reading to much hal lindsay end time fiction

Yeah, I really do not focus on specific teachers per say for my study of the Scriptures. My primarily bulk of study is from God's Word by comparing Scripture with Scripture (By the leading of the Spirit and thru prayer).

You are more than welcome to refute the passages I have on the Pre-Trib Rapture that I have discussed already at CC.

Pre-Trib Rapture.

versus the...

Gathering of Elect Before Christ's Second Coming.

Then there are the clues or breadcrumbs of the Pre-Trib Rapture, too.

Pre-Trib Rapture is paralleled in Genesis and Revelation.

Those who say the Lord is delaying His Coming.

Comparing the Trumpet of Blessing vs. the Trumpet of Judgment.

Knowing the Timing of Period Called "Wrath" and Realizing We are not Appointed Unto "Wrath."

However, you have to realize that the Pre-Trib is the only position where a person has the most to lose.

Those who say everything has been fulfilled already have not truly believed Revelation at face value. For anyone who is honest with themselves in reading it will see that none of the major things in Revelation have happened yet.

Mid Trib view is false because you have a population problem with the Anti-Christ killing the saints during this time.

Post Trib view is false because we are not appointed unto Wrath.

Saying there is no Rapture means you have not read the Rapture verses with an open mind.

 

[Jason0047]

The point is that we are just Moral - thought that will happen - many people take morality to equate salvation, and that their beliefs on certain issues are the moral superior to those who do not agree

Salvation is not just a moral issue - but a heart transformation - leaven that affects the whole lump, only 1 good context leaven is talked about - in Matthew 13

The rest leaven is talked about negatively - sin ruins us, has ruined us, will ruin us - the Gospel is desperately needed to the lost and the saved - Paul preached it to himself and others - this is the need

Yes, a caterpillar cannot fly until he transforms into a butterfly. It's the same with people. They cannot have any hope of being truly moral unless they are born again spiritually. But to suggest that believers are not to teach that they cannot attain sinless perfectionism goes against the Word of God, though. Jesus says for us to be ye perfect. Scripture says be ye holy. Scripture says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord.

For they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts (Galatians 5:24).

 

[GaryA]

I have been doing a Bible study by Matt Chandler - the Explicit Gospel


The post title I find to be most engaging, because there are a lot of people in churches, on here and so on that if you pay attention to their arguments, they present a Moral Deism

Sinless Perfectionists
KJV onlists
Pretrib only
Postrib only
Calvanism vs Arminianism

These topics, you see a lot of "moral superiority" type arguments and a lot of Banning, They think that their opinion is salvation, that if you don't hold to their opinion you must not be saved/

They constantly argue these points because it is their salvation, not Jesus Christ. So they pour hours into arguing their little point justifying themselves each time they argue - Works based salvation for their ideal.

Their argument is an Ultimate, not Chirst Crucified and risen for me, which is sad

Like MarcR - I disagree.

I think you are painting with too wide of a brush.

While this concept may exist for some, I do not believe that it should be applied to every person in a group with a label.

I am pretty sure that there are many who know full-well that their salvation rests in Christ alone -- and the rest is simply about having a proper understanding of the truth of the scriptures...

I think perhaps you are just trying to "start something"...?