SAVED BY WORKS

[dcontroversal]

That is right as he believes the scripture is saying the Pharisees is forcing others to keep the Mosaic law that they don't keep. Which is only part of the equation that I pointed out, as if was not that the Lord was not telling the people they don't have to keep the laws. On the contrary Jesus told the people to do the laws that they preached.

Then Jesus told not to do what they do, because the Pharisees did not keep the laws but twisted and corrupted them instead. And used them for self recognition and financial gain, not out for or out of love.

That is why I said I do not accept his version of understanding because he was only going by half of the context that was there. I was simply pointing out the whole context.

Now you are really missing the mark.......The leaven of he Pharisees was hypocrisy........lets see if what you say jives with what Paul states.....

Concerning the LAW he could not be outwardly CONDEMNED which means OUTWARDLY he WAS KEEPING THE LAW TO A T......BUT PAUL, like you needed to be re-educated......!

 

[Angela53510]

Why don't we get down to the brass tacks of this thread? We all know what it's really about....... saying faith vs. faith with evidence of works.

James ch 2 is at the core of proving OSAS is wrong, & it is literally interpreted. Just check all the replies in the thread concerning James 2...... they're either ignored altogether, or the argument is it's been interpreted improperly & the context doesn't say that. But.... it IS literally interpreted.

Woe! Context, Stephen! Read the whole chapter, and maybe an understanding of Greek might help you distinguish between the literal English and understanding the underlying meanings in the Greek.

"For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it." James 2:10

Of course, we cannot keep the whole law, any more than we can earn our salvation by works.

"You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;" James 2:22

"βλέπεις ὅτι ἡ πίστις συνήργει τοῖς ἔργοις αὐτοῦ καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἔργων ἡ πίστις ἐτελειώθη," James 2:22

Sunergei, συνήργει, means to cooperate, to work together! Eteleiothe, ἐτελειώθη, is the Aorist, Indicative passive, from the word telio, which means "to bring to maturity, to perfect, to consummate. As the tree is perfected by its fruits, so faith is by its works. Works do not animate faith; but faith produces works, and works perfect faith.

The fact that sunergei is in the passive, means that it is not of ourselves that this completion occurs, but rather, GOD is the one who brings about the completion of our justification, sanctification and glorification. God is the one who is in control of our salvation, including what happens after we are justified by his sovereign grace!

The goal or telios of our faith is shown by our works. Salvation is not earned by our works, but rather our works spring out of a heart filled with joy of knowing God has saved us by his grace.

"You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2:24

"ὁρᾶτε ὅτι ἐξ ἔργων δικαιοῦται ἄνθρωπος καὶ οὐκ ἐκ πίστεως μόνον." James 2:24 Greek

Ez ergo or ἐξ ἔργων means FROM WORKS. "BY" works is a bad translation of this important phrase. Using "from," instead of "by" means that faith is neither belittled nor ignored, but regarded as complementing works, with which it must be combined.

The contrast is NOT between faith and works, but between faith minus works, and works minus faith.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Now you are just being ridiculous........My eternal SPIRIT is still bound in a physical BODY......the word means to have period.....You reject this because you believe you can lose your salvation which is false......

He that believes HATH everlasting/eternal LIFE....reject the word if you so choose...I guess you are right in this sense......by your own theology (faith+works) for salvation that you can lose which is a gospel of a different KIND, double cursed and no power to save then you would be correct to say that you do not possess eternal life...as for me I will stick with what the words actually mean and the verb tenses which PROVES that one who actually trusts into Christ is PRESENTLY HAVING EVERLASTING SPIRITUAL LIFE.......

That is not being ridiculous because the bible clearly states that we are transformed into our eternal spiritual bodies at the gathering together to be with the Lord. We still have our fleshly bodies therefore we do not physically have eternal life yet or we would already be transformed in the twinkling of an eye.

Why does Paul constantly say to believers by our walk we are seeking for, hoping to receive, to lay hold on eternal life by keeping the faith if we already have it physically ?

There would be no need for saying such things to believers if we already have in our immediate possession physically.
And use that whole scripture from John 3:36 as it shows a continuing belief in the Lord has eternal life, but the second half says those who do not believe/obey the Lord will not see eternal life but will face the wrath of God.

 

[KJV1611]

not true, the grave error is thinking that salvation has nothing to do with actually being saved from sin.

If sin is breaking the law which it is and we are saved from sin then what are we saved from? Answer: breaking the law.

And if we continue to break the law/sin then are we free from sin/breaking the law? no we are still slaves to sin and thus not free.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin and the servant abideth not in the house forever. What does that mean? What/who is the servant and what is the servants house?

 

[kennethcadwell]

Now you are really missing the mark.......The leaven of he Pharisees was hypocrisy........lets see if what you say jives with what Paul states.....

Concerning the LAW he could not be outwardly CONDEMNED which means OUTWARDLY he WAS KEEPING THE LAW TO A T......BUT PAUL, like you needed to be re-educated......!

Do you understand what leaven stands for?
Leaven means a sinful lifestyle, as Paul clearly states that if we do not purge the wrong doer out of the church his leaven (wrong doing) will leaven others. Lead them to walking improperly also, and not obey the truth.

 

[dcontroversal]

That is not being ridiculous because the bible clearly states that we are transformed into our eternal spiritual bodies at the gathering together to be with the Lord. We still have our fleshly bodies therefore we do not physically have eternal life yet or we would already be transformed in the twinkling of an eye.

Why does Paul constantly say to believers by our walk we are seeking for, hoping to receive, to lay hold on eternal life by keeping the faith if we already have it physically ?

There would be no need for saying such things to believers if we already have in our immediate possession physically.
And use that whole scripture from John 3:36 as it shows a continuing belief in the Lord has eternal life, but the second half says those who do not believe/obey the Lord will not see eternal life but will face the wrath of God.

Was Jesus Eternal?
Did He die Physical?
Did He get a glorified BODY that could do the things you are saying?

Like I said....Ridiculous is the word and you are grasping at straws......

The spirit is Eternal and bound in a physical BODY.....The full package (changed body) will be completed when Christ come again, doesn't change the fact that our spirit has ETERNAL LIFE RIGHT NOW! BORN AGAIN=LIFE

WAKE UP...your straw house crumbles before your eyes!

Is Abraham dead or ALIVE.....TELL ME WHAT JESUS SAID.....Abraham is ALIVE...has he received his glorified body YET when JESUS speaks of him being ALIVE though his body was dead?

Wake up and smell the truth and accept your error

 

[gotime]

Whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin and the servant abideth not in the house forever. What does that mean? What/who is the servant and what is the servants house?

read surrounding context for your answer.

blessings.

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you understand what leaven stands for?
Leaven means a sinful lifestyle, as Paul clearly states that if we do not purge the wrong doer out of the church his leaven (wrong doing) will leaven others. Lead them to walking improperly also, and not obey the truth.

I suggest you study.....The leaven of the Pharisees was HYPOCRISY......God's Word not mine....maybe you should start believing the word instead of twisting it to fit your theology

 

[kennethcadwell]

I suggest you study.....The leaven of the Pharisees was HYPOCRISY......God's Word not mine....maybe you should start believing the word instead of twisting it to fit your theology

Hypocrisy is sin !!!

 

[KJV1611]

read surrounding context for your answer.

blessings.

I know what it means but apparently you don't. You're using the verses out of context to say that if we continue to sin then we are not free from sin. That's why I asked you who/what the servant is and what the house is. It seems like the only verse that you understand is verse 34 and you're basing an entire doctrine on one verse, and that verse can't be understood without understanding verse 35.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Was Jesus Eternal?
Did He die Physical?
Did He get a glorified BODY that could do the things you are saying?

Like I said....Ridiculous is the word and you are grasping at straws......

The spirit is Eternal and bound in a physical BODY.....The full package (changed body) will be completed when Christ come again, doesn't change the fact that our spirit has ETERNAL LIFE RIGHT NOW! BORN AGAIN=LIFE

WAKE UP...your straw house crumbles before your eyes!

Is Abraham dead or ALIVE.....TELL ME WHAT JESUS SAID.....Abraham is ALIVE...has he received his glorified body YET when JESUS speaks of him being ALIVE though his body was dead?

Wake up and smell the truth and accept your error

Jesus died in the flesh and resurrected in His spiritual body, and yes Jesus can go and move around to wherever He pleases now. If you do not believe we will be able once we are transformed into our eternal spiritual bodies to be able to move around without cars, planes, boats, and such I don't know what to say to that.
None of the things we have now will be needed on the New Earth. I need to find the scripture again but I remember seeing one that say we would be able to move around in a celestrial manner.

 

[dcontroversal]

Hypocrisy is sin !!!

Did or did not Paul say he kept the LAW OUTWARDLY? YES

Did or did not Paul say he was a Pharisee of the Pharisees? YES

No matter how you slice and dice.....KEEPING every law, ordinance, statute, judgment, written, unwritten , moral, ceremonially, the big 10 or the 613 inwardly was an IMPOSSIBLITY by ANY MAN other than JESUS....

The righteousness FOR THE LAW is IMPUTED, PUT TO THE ACCOUNT, ACCOUNTED unto the genuine BELIEVER....

WAKE up and SMELL THE TRUTH...WORKS DO NOT SAVE...FAITH SAVES and ONCE SAVED and POSSESSING an ETERNALLY BORN AGAIN SPIRIT the person can then BEAR FRUIT/WORKS as EVIDENCE of that ETERNAL salvation one is currently POSSESSING which CANNOT BE LOST!

 

[KJV1611]

I suggest you study.....The leaven of the Pharisees was HYPOCRISY......God's Word not mine....maybe you should start believing the word instead of twisting it to fit your theology

You might as well give up man, he ain't gonna get it.

 

[dcontroversal]

You might as well give up man, he ain't gonna get it.

I agree for sure.........tragic, as it is so simple at the end of the day!

 

[kennethcadwell]

Did or did not Paul say he kept the word OUTWARDLY? YES

Did or did not Paul say he was a Pharisee of the Pharisees? YES

No matter how you slice and dice.....KEEPING every law, ordinance, statute, judgment, written, unwritten , moral, ceremonially, the big 10 or the 613 was an IMPOSSIBLITY by ANY MAN other than JESUS....

The righteousness FOR THE LAW is IMPUTED, PUT TO THE ACCOUNT, ACCOUNTED unto the genuine BELIEVER....

WAKE up and SMELL THE TRUTH...WORKS DO NOT SAVE...FAITH SAVES and ONCE SAVED and POSSESSING an ETERNALLY BORN AGAIN SPIRIT the person can then BEAR FRUIT/WORKS as EVIDENCE if that ETERNAL salvation one is currently POSSESSING which CANNOT BE LOST!

The bible says it is impossible by man alone............

However we are not alone we have the Holy Spirit guiding us in every step, and Paul said in Romans 13:9-10 that walking in love will uphold the 10 commandments plus any other command given by the Lord. Paul also said in Romans 3:31 by our faith we do not void the law we through love establish it in our lives.....

 

[dcontroversal]

The bible says it is impossible by man alone............

However we are not alone we have the Holy Spirit guiding us in every step, and Paul said in Romans 13:9-10 that walking in love will uphold the 10 commandments plus any other command given by the Lord. Paul also said in Romans 3:31 by our faith we do not void the law we through love establish it in our lives.....

Re-read the last line as that is where you miss the boat......!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Did or did not Paul say he kept the word OUTWARDLY? YES

Did or did not Paul say he was a Pharisee of the Pharisees? YES

No matter how you slice and dice.....KEEPING every law, ordinance, statute, judgment, written, unwritten , moral, ceremonially, the big 10 or the 613 was an IMPOSSIBLITY by ANY MAN other than JESUS....

The righteousness FOR THE LAW is IMPUTED, PUT TO THE ACCOUNT, ACCOUNTED unto the genuine BELIEVER....

WAKE up and SMELL THE TRUTH...WORKS DO NOT SAVE...FAITH SAVES and ONCE SAVED and POSSESSING an ETERNALLY BORN AGAIN SPIRIT the person can then BEAR FRUIT/WORKS as EVIDENCE if that ETERNAL salvation one is currently POSSESSING which CANNOT BE LOST!

 

[kennethcadwell]

You might as well give up man, he ain't gonna get it.

Your right I will not ever understand OSAS because it does not line up with scripture, else wise nobody will ever be blotted out of the book of life. But God gives more then one warning of what would cause one to have their name blotted out of His book of life.

I just mentioned James 5:19-20 previously where James says if one falls from the truth, only if they are brought back will they escape death in the lake of fire. If OSAS were true then a believer could never fall away, yet the bible gives many examples of those who do.........

 

[dcontroversal]

Your right I will not ever understand OSAS because it does not line up with scripture, else wise nobody will ever be blotted out of the book of life. But God gives more then one warning of what would cause one to have their name blotted out of His book of life.

I just mentioned James 5:19-20 previously where James says if one falls from the truth, only if they are brought back will they escape death in the lake of fire. If OSAS were true then a believer could never fall away, yet the bible gives many examples of those who do.........

You know the only ones blotted out are UNBELIEVERS.............you will never understand it because you are hooked on your own works and abilities.........

 

[kennethcadwell]

Re-read the last line as that is where you miss the boat......!

Originally Posted by dcontroversal

Did or did not Paul say he kept the word OUTWARDLY? YES

Did or did not Paul say he was a Pharisee of the Pharisees? YES

No matter how you slice and dice.....KEEPING every law, ordinance, statute, judgment, written, unwritten , moral, ceremonially, the big 10 or the 613 was an IMPOSSIBLITY by ANY MAN other than JESUS....

The righteousness FOR THE LAW is IMPUTED, PUT TO THE ACCOUNT, ACCOUNTED unto the genuine BELIEVER....

WAKE up and SMELL THE TRUTH...WORKS DO NOT SAVE...FAITH SAVES and ONCE SAVED and POSSESSING an ETERNALLY BORN AGAIN SPIRIT the person can then BEAR FRUIT/WORKS as EVIDENCE if that ETERNAL salvation one is currently POSSESSING which CANNOT BE LOST!

That last line is your interpretation of the bible, but does not line up.
You say they can produce good fruit, the bible says a born again believer will produce good fruit because it comes from the Spirit not from our own doing.

I never said works save, so stop putting that on me. What I said is spiritual works go hand and hand with salvation, without them shows the person faith is not a true faith.

Second what do you call repentance, baptism, confession, forgiveness ???
Lord Jesus said all of those deal with salvation; He says no repentance you will perish, no baptism you are not born again, do not confess Him He will deny you, do not forgive others He will not forgive you. All of these tie into salvation, and without any of them there is no salvation.

You still deny clear cut scripture, and one I just gave from James.
James is not speaking of physical death in James 5:19-20, for he is speaking of spiritual death in the lake of fire you will be saving that person from that falling away from the truth.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You know the only ones blotted out are UNBELIEVERS.............you will never understand it because you are hooked on your own works and abilities.........

Wrong as the Lord gives a strict warning to believers in Revelation, that if anybody adds to it they will face the plagues in the book, and if anybody takes away from it He will blot their name out of the book of life.

Once again James 5:19-20 is talking about believers that fall away from the truth, if they are not brought back there is no salvation for them.