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Untrue. The church acknowledges the potential existence of 'gods,' with a lower case g. But there is only One God, supreme ruler of the Universe and all of creation. If deification is true, for example, and we can become 'gods,' there is still only One God of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. God is not just the god of this planet or region of the universe. He has created 'worlds without number.'
You can cite all you want, just remember that our official doctrine is contained within the four standard works of the church. A wayward comment made by a church leader over one hundred years ago does not make it doctrine.
Are you serious with this? This isn't a Mormon thread, this wasn't started by me. Someone else brought up the idea of deification and I commented on the topic at hand, using ONLY the Bible as a source. Deification is not a uniquely Mormon doctrine, for it was taught by many of the early church fathers. Are you now saying that I cannot comment on anything Mormons believe in lest I be labelled an apologist? Mormons believe baptism is required for salvation. Does that mean I cannot comment on any baptism thread because I happen to support that notion?
Untrue. The church acknowledges the potential existence of 'gods,' with a lower case g. But there is only One God, supreme ruler of the Universe and all of creation. If deification is true, for example, and we can become 'gods,' there is still only One God of Father, Son and Holy Ghost. God is not just the god of this planet or region of the universe. He has created 'worlds without number.'
You can cite all you want, just remember that our official doctrine is contained within the four standard works of the church. A wayward comment made by a church leader over one hundred years ago does not make it doctrine.
Are you serious with this? This isn't a Mormon thread, this wasn't started by me. Someone else brought up the idea of deification and I commented on the topic at hand, using ONLY the Bible as a source. Deification is not a uniquely Mormon doctrine, for it was taught by many of the early church fathers. Are you now saying that I cannot comment on anything Mormons believe in lest I be labelled an apologist? Mormons believe baptism is required for salvation. Does that mean I cannot comment on any baptism thread because I happen to support that notion?
ROFL.
Let me rephrase that to coincide with what is REALLY going on.
"A clear, careful, methodically made statement by Joseph Smith, or another PROPHET does not make it doctrine. Because we find many teachings of our 'true prophets of God' to be completely embarrassing... so we try to cover them up."
We BOTH KNOW the Mormon church still teaches all these things (and lots of other weirdness) but they're embarrassing things... so they've been taken OUT OF PRINT, so ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS can no longer FIND THEM EASILY. The church STILL TEACHES ALL THESE THINGS verbally, in the congregation, and in their classes.
Hey, don't feel bad, the Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing.
You're in good company.
: )
Let me rephrase that to coincide with what is REALLY going on.
"A clear, careful, methodically made statement by Joseph Smith, or another PROPHET does not make it doctrine. Because we find many teachings of our 'true prophets of God' to be completely embarrassing... so we try to cover them up."
We BOTH KNOW the Mormon church still teaches all these things (and lots of other weirdness) but they're embarrassing things... so they've been taken OUT OF PRINT, so ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS can no longer FIND THEM EASILY. The church STILL TEACHES ALL THESE THINGS verbally, in the congregation, and in their classes.
Hey, don't feel bad, the Jehovah's Witnesses do the same thing.
You're in good company.
: )
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T
By trying to cover them up, do you mean, keep all the records preserved, the release them for the general public to read? You do know that the only reason we have all of these 'incriminating documents,' is because the church kept them safe, don't you? Have you heard of the Joseph Smith Papers project? It's a church-sponsored initiative wherein LDS scholars have composed ever single thing Joseph Smith ever wrote or said and released them in two formats (hardcover, and for free online.) If we're trying to cover something up, we're not doing a very good job of it, are we?
You misunderstand me, anyways. You also misunderstand the role prophets play in our theology. We don't claim they are perfect or that every word ever uttered by them is inspired. Our church leaders are regular men like everyone else. They have their own opinions and theories and they sometimes have taught them from the pulpit. But if they are contradicted by the words in our Standard Works, we know that the man was speaking of himself.
Are you a practicing Mormon? How many LDS services have you attended in the last five years? As an 18 year member, I can say unequivocally that the things you say we teach are not taught in our classes. This can be easily verified. If you go to the church's official website, you will see that we have the yearly curriculum for each Sunday School class on there, complete with the teaching manuals and student manuals being used for said classes. You can even read them for free online. I dare you to read these manuals and find in them these things you say we teach.
To the OP. I'm sorry your thread has been somewhat hijacked. My only desire in responding was to give my own biblical interpretation on the matter of human deification.
You misunderstand me, anyways. You also misunderstand the role prophets play in our theology. We don't claim they are perfect or that every word ever uttered by them is inspired. Our church leaders are regular men like everyone else. They have their own opinions and theories and they sometimes have taught them from the pulpit. But if they are contradicted by the words in our Standard Works, we know that the man was speaking of himself.
Are you a practicing Mormon? How many LDS services have you attended in the last five years? As an 18 year member, I can say unequivocally that the things you say we teach are not taught in our classes. This can be easily verified. If you go to the church's official website, you will see that we have the yearly curriculum for each Sunday School class on there, complete with the teaching manuals and student manuals being used for said classes. You can even read them for free online. I dare you to read these manuals and find in them these things you say we teach.
To the OP. I'm sorry your thread has been somewhat hijacked. My only desire in responding was to give my own biblical interpretation on the matter of human deification.
Again, more completely disingenuous points.
1. There are numerous Mormon books which have been intentionally taken out of print to obfuscate investigation of Mormon beliefs.
2. I have never met ANY Mormon who was very forthcoming about their more bizarre beliefs... they ALWAYS try to avoid talking about them. Sometimes they even lie about them.
3. To have a "cover up" of something, there are many ways to accomplish this. It can be as simple as what politicians do to cover their tracks.
A. "Yes, the president SAID that, but it isn't what he really MEANT."
B. "Yes, the president SAID that, but he simply misspoke."
You can spin things however you like.
It doesn't fool anyone.
1. There are numerous Mormon books which have been intentionally taken out of print to obfuscate investigation of Mormon beliefs.
2. I have never met ANY Mormon who was very forthcoming about their more bizarre beliefs... they ALWAYS try to avoid talking about them. Sometimes they even lie about them.
3. To have a "cover up" of something, there are many ways to accomplish this. It can be as simple as what politicians do to cover their tracks.
A. "Yes, the president SAID that, but it isn't what he really MEANT."
B. "Yes, the president SAID that, but he simply misspoke."
You can spin things however you like.
It doesn't fool anyone.
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I never implied that you said that....lets recap shall we.....
Your question--->yet I have also heard from many believers that man cannot become...God. Agree? Disagree? Comments?
My response.......is under the comments section...no where did I imply anything toward you.
Re: The deification of man.
Your question--->yet I have also heard from many believers that man cannot become...God. Agree? Disagree? Comments?
My response.......is under the comments section...no where did I imply anything toward you.
Can a servant be above his MASTER...It is enough that a servant be as his MASTER..........
Jesus is God and he will always be so far above us that if it were not for him bridging the gap we would not even be able to see him.....much less become a god........!
Jesus is God and he will always be so far above us that if it were not for him bridging the gap we would not even be able to see him.....much less become a god........!
Continued... 4th point
4. What the the Mormon church puts into print, in manuals and books, is NOT the "end all" of what Mormons teach or believe. They keep many of their beliefs OUT of modern printed materials. Very deceptive.
- They all know and believe there are many Gods... use any size "g" you want... by biblical standards it's still heresy.
- They all know and believe they can be exalted and become Gods
- They all know and believe Jesus was a just a man... a man who was exalted and became a God.
All these things are heresy according to Orthodox Christianity.
And this IS what ALL Mormons believe... whether they appear in every Sunday School manual or not.
And YOU know that.
4. What the the Mormon church puts into print, in manuals and books, is NOT the "end all" of what Mormons teach or believe. They keep many of their beliefs OUT of modern printed materials. Very deceptive.
- They all know and believe there are many Gods... use any size "g" you want... by biblical standards it's still heresy.
- They all know and believe they can be exalted and become Gods
- They all know and believe Jesus was a just a man... a man who was exalted and became a God.
All these things are heresy according to Orthodox Christianity.
And this IS what ALL Mormons believe... whether they appear in every Sunday School manual or not.
And YOU know that.
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Please point out which part of my post was disingenuous. Everything I stated was fact. It was YOU who claimed to know better than me what I believe. And you call ME disingenuous?
Proof that these books were taken out of print to obscure our teachings? Most out of print books were taken out of print because they were not reflective of official church doctrine. Why would we officially publish texts that don't represent our official beliefs. And like I said, most of this stuff can be found on the church's website. And a lot of their previously out of print books are back in print.
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason they are not forthcoming about these beliefs is because we actually don't HOLD these beliefs? I have had very few interactions with you so far. I've got about twenty posts over three days or so. In that time, you have claimed that Mormons deny Jesus's divinity, that we believe God is only the god of this world and that we deny that there is only One God. Every one of those statements is incorrect and I can prove that by citing any number of Book of Mormon scriptures. I'm always amazed at people who claim to know my faith better than I do.
I'm not fooling anyone, because what I'm saying is true. If you want to know what we actually teach and preach, go to the source. You have proven already to be an reliable source of Mormon information, and have thus far not been able to disprove anything I said. Your only defense is simply claiming I am wrong. You said we taught these bizarre beliefs in our classrooms. I directed you to the church's official curriculum. Was I spinning anything then? Can I take it that you found information that countered what I said?
So these 'beliefs cannot be found in our manuals, books, scriptures and they are not taught in classes, but they are what every Mormon believes? If our official church literature, scriptures, teaching manuals, current church leaders, etc. do not teach these things, have you ever considered that we don't actually believe them? If they are not published, where are these beliefs found?
Proof that these books were taken out of print to obscure our teachings? Most out of print books were taken out of print because they were not reflective of official church doctrine. Why would we officially publish texts that don't represent our official beliefs. And like I said, most of this stuff can be found on the church's website. And a lot of their previously out of print books are back in print.
Have you ever thought that maybe the reason they are not forthcoming about these beliefs is because we actually don't HOLD these beliefs? I have had very few interactions with you so far. I've got about twenty posts over three days or so. In that time, you have claimed that Mormons deny Jesus's divinity, that we believe God is only the god of this world and that we deny that there is only One God. Every one of those statements is incorrect and I can prove that by citing any number of Book of Mormon scriptures. I'm always amazed at people who claim to know my faith better than I do.
I'm not fooling anyone, because what I'm saying is true. If you want to know what we actually teach and preach, go to the source. You have proven already to be an reliable source of Mormon information, and have thus far not been able to disprove anything I said. Your only defense is simply claiming I am wrong. You said we taught these bizarre beliefs in our classrooms. I directed you to the church's official curriculum. Was I spinning anything then? Can I take it that you found information that countered what I said?
So these 'beliefs cannot be found in our manuals, books, scriptures and they are not taught in classes, but they are what every Mormon believes? If our official church literature, scriptures, teaching manuals, current church leaders, etc. do not teach these things, have you ever considered that we don't actually believe them? If they are not published, where are these beliefs found?
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LOL
Ok, sure, lets go with that.
Let's talk about what YOU believe.
Please give us all nice detailed answers.
1. Do you believe you can be exalted and become a God? (Or a "god"? Pick any size "g" you want.)
2. Do you believe Jesus was the incarnation of God himself, or that he was a born as a mortal man, who was exalted, and then BECAME a God?
3. Do you believe all Christianity became corrupt, and that's why Joseph Smith was given new revelation, in order to correct all that was lost, and wrong, with christianity?
4. Do you believe the American Indians are descended from the Israelites... who all crossed the Atlantic on a big boat?
5. Do you believe that when Jesus rose from the dead, he came to the North America, and made appearances, and talked to people over here?
6. Do you believe that AFTER PEOPLE DIE, you can hold a ceremony, and baptize them into the Mormon Church?
7. Do you believe that in a Mormon Temple, a family can be "sealed", so they will all be together forever?
8. Do you believe that if you are exalted, and become a God, you and your wife will be making "spirit babies" in heaven?
9. Do you believe that before you were born, you had a PRE-EXISTENCE? That you were a spiritual being in heaven before birth, and at birth you came down here to be born as a baby?
10. Do you believe the Garden of Eden was in North America... and more specifically, in the current location of Independence Missouri?
I could go on and on... but this should be a good start.
And no, I don't have to copy and paste this from some "anti-Mormon" website... after hearing this stuff in a church, how could you ever forget it??
Ok, sure, lets go with that.
Let's talk about what YOU believe.
Please give us all nice detailed answers.
1. Do you believe you can be exalted and become a God? (Or a "god"? Pick any size "g" you want.)
2. Do you believe Jesus was the incarnation of God himself, or that he was a born as a mortal man, who was exalted, and then BECAME a God?
3. Do you believe all Christianity became corrupt, and that's why Joseph Smith was given new revelation, in order to correct all that was lost, and wrong, with christianity?
4. Do you believe the American Indians are descended from the Israelites... who all crossed the Atlantic on a big boat?
5. Do you believe that when Jesus rose from the dead, he came to the North America, and made appearances, and talked to people over here?
6. Do you believe that AFTER PEOPLE DIE, you can hold a ceremony, and baptize them into the Mormon Church?
7. Do you believe that in a Mormon Temple, a family can be "sealed", so they will all be together forever?
8. Do you believe that if you are exalted, and become a God, you and your wife will be making "spirit babies" in heaven?
9. Do you believe that before you were born, you had a PRE-EXISTENCE? That you were a spiritual being in heaven before birth, and at birth you came down here to be born as a baby?
10. Do you believe the Garden of Eden was in North America... and more specifically, in the current location of Independence Missouri?
I could go on and on... but this should be a good start.
And no, I don't have to copy and paste this from some "anti-Mormon" website... after hearing this stuff in a church, how could you ever forget it??
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A
The false teaching of "eternal progression" which the Mormon cult wrongly asserts is patently refutable.
Watch my friend Rob Sivulka interact with people deceived by the false teaching the cult of Mormonism wrongly teaches:
[video=youtube;weit49XNaIs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weit49XNaIs[/video]
No human will be deified into a god and receive worship in the place of God in heaven. The proper term to use for the end result of redeemed humanity is 'glorification.'
Salvation-->Sanctification-->Glorification.
Watch my friend Rob Sivulka interact with people deceived by the false teaching the cult of Mormonism wrongly teaches:
[video=youtube;weit49XNaIs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weit49XNaIs[/video]
No human will be deified into a god and receive worship in the place of God in heaven. The proper term to use for the end result of redeemed humanity is 'glorification.'
Salvation-->Sanctification-->Glorification.
T
LOL
Ok, sure, lets go with that.
Yep. Lower case g. There is still One God.
2. Nope. Jesus was God before he came to earth. Mormons teach that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.
3. Yep. But this isn't a strange belief, nor would most Mormons deny this idea. It's pretty central to the start of our religion.
I believe that a small handful of Israelites crossed the Atlantic and intermingled with the inhabitants already here. They are among the "principle ancestors," of the Native Americans, but not the "only," ones.
5. Yep. Also not a strange belief. I find it strange you think it is beyond God's power to visit other of his sheep. Why COULDN'T he visit someplace else?
6. Basically, yes. Also not a strange belief, and is in fact mentioned in 1st Corinthians. It's also logical. If you accept that baptism is required for salvation, which the Bible does,yet many people have died without having any chance of being baptized...God will not leave them without the means to receive salvation.
Yes, but I find this troubling. Are you implying that you DON'T think families will be together in heaven? What kind of heaven would that be?
Yes, to exaltation, no to 'spirit babies.' That is not in the Scriptures.
Yep, and this doctrine makes plain some otherwise troubling notions about creation. It is also testified to in the Bible and is not a strange idea, and most Mormons will freely proclaim such a belief.
Don't know. There is some evidence that Joseph Smith believed this, but there is nothing official. The location of the Garden of Eden is not very important in LDS theology. I find your challenge about the knowledge of the garden's location interesting. Are you implying that you DO know where the garden is or was, even though there is not a shred of archaeological proof?
For further inquiries, I'd suggest personal messaging or another thread. I don't want to usurp the OPs thread with our argument. It's already taken up too much of his time.
Ok, sure, lets go with that.
Yep. Lower case g. There is still One God.
2. Nope. Jesus was God before he came to earth. Mormons teach that Jesus was the God of the Old Testament.
3. Yep. But this isn't a strange belief, nor would most Mormons deny this idea. It's pretty central to the start of our religion.
I believe that a small handful of Israelites crossed the Atlantic and intermingled with the inhabitants already here. They are among the "principle ancestors," of the Native Americans, but not the "only," ones.
5. Yep. Also not a strange belief. I find it strange you think it is beyond God's power to visit other of his sheep. Why COULDN'T he visit someplace else?
6. Basically, yes. Also not a strange belief, and is in fact mentioned in 1st Corinthians. It's also logical. If you accept that baptism is required for salvation, which the Bible does,yet many people have died without having any chance of being baptized...God will not leave them without the means to receive salvation.
Yes, but I find this troubling. Are you implying that you DON'T think families will be together in heaven? What kind of heaven would that be?
Yes, to exaltation, no to 'spirit babies.' That is not in the Scriptures.
Yep, and this doctrine makes plain some otherwise troubling notions about creation. It is also testified to in the Bible and is not a strange idea, and most Mormons will freely proclaim such a belief.
Don't know. There is some evidence that Joseph Smith believed this, but there is nothing official. The location of the Garden of Eden is not very important in LDS theology. I find your challenge about the knowledge of the garden's location interesting. Are you implying that you DO know where the garden is or was, even though there is not a shred of archaeological proof?
For further inquiries, I'd suggest personal messaging or another thread. I don't want to usurp the OPs thread with our argument. It's already taken up too much of his time.
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T
I wouldn't mind doing this, but we've already taken this thread way off topic. I didn't come on here to discuss my Mormon faith. I came on here to discuss the theological underpinnings of human deification. Yet, if you desire to know whether or not I am bluffing, I wouldn't mind sending the verses via private messaging, so you know I was actually basing it on something.
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For those interested in learning more about the home-grown cult of Mormonism and why it's teachings are false and heretical, you may want to visit Rob Sivulka's Christian apologist website focusing on educating both those deceived by Mormonism and non-Mormons alike: MormonInfo.org - Home and start with the FAQ page: MormonInfo.org - FAQs
When Mormons parrot the false heretical teachings of the modern cult of the Latter Day Saints which they've chosen to identify with, it's always good to carefully refute them for their benefit even though statistically most Mormons unfortunately do not abandon the heresy they embrace for the truth of classical orthodox Christianity.
Another alternative starting point is the Mormonism Research Ministry' Introductory Issues website: Introductory Issues | Mormonism Research Ministry
When Mormons parrot the false heretical teachings of the modern cult of the Latter Day Saints which they've chosen to identify with, it's always good to carefully refute them for their benefit even though statistically most Mormons unfortunately do not abandon the heresy they embrace for the truth of classical orthodox Christianity.
Another alternative starting point is the Mormonism Research Ministry' Introductory Issues website: Introductory Issues | Mormonism Research Ministry