sinless? or sinning less.

[haz]

ok let me make it easier:

Does the love of God in you Commit adultery?

Christians should not commit physical adultery if they are obeying Christ's commandment to love others.
But we all are at different stages of growth, so sadly we do see many Christians committing adultery especially as described in Mark 10:11,12.
And when we do wrong we will not profit by it, just as King David did not profit with the wrong he did. God disciplines us.

But what you are missing is the spiritual aspect.
Legalists are committing spiritual adultery.

Christians are married to Christ, Eph 5:31, We're one spirit with the Lord, 1Cor 6:17.

Therefore we should not indulge in spiritual adultery with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24. That means we cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

If you're judging another's righteousness/holiness/sinlessness by whether they obey the law perfectly in this physical life, then you are mixing works of the law, with grace. This is spiritual adultery with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.

 

[Jason0047]

People who think they can get away with doing evil in Christ are only deluding themselves. There is no excuse for sin. I mean honestly, who are you kidding? When you turn on the news and or watch a movie, how do you know the good guys from the bad guys? Is it by the fact that they have a belief alone or is by what they do?

In other words, if you don't confess and turn from your sin or evil in your life you are still the villain of the story and you are not the hero or the good guy. If you believe otherwise, then stop rooting for the good guys when you watch a movie. When you happen to come across the news and see people in the world doing horrible acts of evil, you have to say to yourself that they might just be one God's people who also has a belief on Jesus, too.

But we both know that is not the case. Jesus said He would rather a person be cold or hot; and not lukewarm. For Jesus will spew those out of his mouth who are lukewarm. In other words, if someone wants to do evil, leave God out of it because He will not tolerate anyone in getting away with sin or evil.

Choose this day in whom ye will serve.

For believers who sin and don't repent will not be in heaven or the eternal new earth. For Scripture says have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. Scripture also says there are those who have turned the grace of our God into lasciviousness or a license for immorality. Peter talks about how there are false prophets who have eyes full of adultery and who cannot cease from sin. Paul tells Timothy that,

"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away."​

For if anyone teaches they can sin and still (because they have a belief alone on Jesus to be saved) does not understand the Bible or the gospel, and nor do they know God because God is love and God is good. For the Scriptures say he that does not love does not know God; And Paul says that if anyone teaches contrary to the words of Jesus and the doctrine of Godliness is proud and knows nothing.

Side Note:

Oh, and pease take note that I don't believe in Works Salvationism, either. We are saved right here and right now by God's grace (When we repent of our sins and accept Jesus). For it is a free gift. However, like all gifts, one can choose to be irresponsible with their gifts and cause them to be ruined, though.

 

[psalm6819]

It's strange how many believe that concentrating on sin makes one holy............
focusing on Jesus is much more productive than keeping tracks of one's own sins or those of others

 

[Jason0047]

In other words, when an alcoholic who is honestly struggling to stop in their addiction to alcohol, they are far better in doing the right thing versus say the alcoholic who could care less about stopping (or who thinks it is impossible to stop). So to ask the question so as to say you are sinless versus saying you are sinning less is a false statement or belief. It is a loaded question that implies that a believer can never stop sinning. However, believers can indeed stop sinning those types of sins that lead unto death, such as hating, lying, lusting, and in getting drunk, etc. For it would be like telling an alcoholic that they will forever be engulfed in their addiction. To put it to you another way, the question your asking is sort like saying either:

1. A person is Alcohol free or Sober (versus)
2. A person has slipped up on occasion in their honest struggle to stop on their road to recovery (From Alcoholism).

The believer who thinks they can habitually sin and still be saved is essentially saying you are a slave to your sin. Yet, Romans 8 says we are free from the Law of sin and death. In other words, sin will not have rule or dominion in a believer's life because Jesus lives in their heart and life.

 

[Jason0047]

It's strange how many believe that concentrating on sin makes one holy............
focusing on Jesus is much more productive than keeping tracks of one's own sins or those of others

So ignore the problem and just hope it goes away? Does that work with alcoholic or the person who has a serious life threatening wound? I think not. 1 John 1:9 says you have to confess of your sin. Jesus said, repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand. This means forsaking your sin.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

So ignore the problem and just hope it goes away? Does that work with alcoholic or the person who has a serious life threatening wound? I think not. 1 John 1:9 says you have to confess of your sin. Jesus said, repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand. This means forsaking your sin.

Hey Jason how you doing today sir?.......God threw our sins to the bottom of the sea and cast them behind His back bro, He is NOT looking at the sin of a true believer anymore. If you truly believe in Christ Jesus your sins have been forgiven, His blood cleanses us of all our sins and unrighteousness when His Spirit is sealed within the true believer at the point of belief. Then after being sealed with His Spirit at a time determined by God....... His Spirit will dawn in the true believer giving light to the whole house. and it will lead the true believer into all truth. What you are saying seems more pertinent to those who are coming into our common faith rather then those living with the aid of the Counselor. as He will bring the man to say i'm sorry for sinning Father please forgive me automatically. as the Spirit will give discernment of the transgression made against God. So i commend you for offering that instruction to repent and confess sins to God and forsake sinning. but those who live with God's Counselor in them will know where to go and what to do according to the Spirit's will.

 

[Jason0047]

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Ephesians 2:2-3 says

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."​

Colossians 3:5-10 says the same thing, too (Note: Please pay close attention to verse 7.

 

[Jason0047]

Hey Jason how you doing today sir?.......God threw our sins to the bottom of the sea and cast them behind His back bro, He is NOT looking at the sin of a true believer anymore. If you truly believe in Christ Jesus your sins have been forgiven, His blood cleanses us of all our sins and unrighteousness when His Spirit is sealed within the true believer at the point of belief. Then after being sealed with His Spirit at a time determined by God....... His Spirit will dawn in the true believer giving light to the whole house. and it will lead the true believer into all truth. What you are saying seems more pertinent to those who are coming into our common faith rather then those living with the aid of the Counselor. as He will bring the man to say i'm sorry for sinning Father please forgive me automatically. as the Spirit will give discernment of the transgression made against God. So i commend you for offering that instruction to repent and confess sins to God and forsake sinning. but those who live with God's Counselor in them will know where to go and what to do according to the Spirit's will.

Please address the verses I referenced.

 

[Jason0047]

Also, please illustrate how your belief can be made into a real world example. I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truths all the time by using real world examples (i.e. His parables).

 

[oopsies]

It's strange how many believe that concentrating on sin makes one holy............
focusing on Jesus is much more productive than keeping tracks of one's own sins or those of others

I don't think you're wrong per se but I do think that you can take it a step further or perhaps you had difficulty expressing what we both know already. If we focus on Christ, then he will show us our sins. At that point, at least for myself, being so aware of my shortcomings, I would desire so greatly to please him and to obey all his commands and laws. But in order to do so, I must first be aware of the sin that plagues me every day and that does require an unusual focus - a focus that's hard to ignore when the Holy Spirit is constantly showing us our sin!

I'm reminded of this passage, Matthew 7:21-23. Jesus speaks of a group of people that recognize that he is King. They even call him Lord and speak of performing miracles and doing great things in Jesus' name. It's quite amazing that this passage is so specific in identifying this group - these are people who already believe that he's the Saviour and perhaps, some of those great things they perform in Jesus' name could be great evangelism as well. But instead of saying, "I know you," Jesus says, "depart from me, you workers of lawlessness." Of all things - it was that they did not obey his commands, his laws, that sets them apart from the true believers. The passage doesn't specify but perhaps they did not focus on it, not because they weren't aware that they sin but because Christ never made them aware of how awful that sin is. And as a result, they never concentrated on those shortcomings. It's kind of hard not to focus on your sin if the Holy Spirit is always showing it to you!

Which is quite a scary thing when you think about it - if a person doesn't have a focus on their sin, it means the Holy Spirit isn't showing them just how disgusting it is. And if we don't see it regularly, we wouldn't have the necessity to focus on Christ in an effort to get rid of that sin and to resist the temptations that come with it. And if that isn't happening, one could wonder if the Holy Spirit is in them at all. And if the Holy Spirit isn't in them... well, that's the scary part, right?

 

[Deluge]

Every time someone says, "Nobody is sinless" or "Are YOU sinless?" they miss the point. It may be the case that nobody has ever ran from one end of North America to the other, and that no one ever will, but that does not mean that it is impossible. If it were impossible to be sinless, God would not be able to hold us accountable for our sin, in the same way he does not blame us for our inability to fly. It is only because living without sin is possible that we are to blame for our sin.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Galatians 5:24 says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Ephesians 2:2-3 says

"Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."​

Colossians 3:5-10 says the same thing, too (Note: Please pay close attention to verse 7.

Those verses you posted support my comments bro as Galatians 5 1-15 deals with those who are freed in Christ Jesus (have liberty) through faith and warns them not to get entangled (or hindered) by law keeping or using the law of Moses as a example of their righteousness (faith) or lack there of, these have been sealed with the Spirit. We do get hindered sometimes by doctrines of men that seem sound but enslave us away from true faith in Christ where we grow and back in to rule keeping set in place by man's dictates that hinder a Christian and place us back into the bondage of men or to our carnal reasonings.
Just like this.......
Colossians 3:1-4
1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Collosians 3:1-17 "putting on the new self" (those sealed with the Spirit at the point of true belief)
In both examples and as today men receive the indwelling Holy Spirit at the point of true belief but their carnal nature and desires prior to conversion still exist within them and must be and will be overcome by living by the dictates of the Spirit and not of the carnal mind. The epistles are for instruction and reminding a true believer sealed with the Spirit that faith grows when it is working by love.

Galatians 5: 6-26 is instructing those sealed with the Spirit to fight the good fight living by the Spirit they were sealed with at the point of true belief to mortify their wants, still present in flesh rather then serving their flesh they should follow the fruits of the Spirit.

Ephesians 2 is written to those elect who have already or will soon experience the dawning of the indwelling Spirit see.......
John 1: 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 1:3-7
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Also see.......
2 Peter 1:3,4
3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust

and....... 2 Peter 1:19-21 written to those elect who were sealed with the Spirit and will soon experience the dawning of the Spirit.

19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

and....... John 1:16
And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (read the commentary as well please)

Pulpit commentary
"And grace for grace. It is said the evangelist might have written χάριν ἐπὶ χάριτι, or ἐπὶ χάριν, grace in addition to grace received already; but the use of the preposition ἀντί, implies more, "grace interchanging with grace" (Meyer) - not the grace of the old covenant replaced by the grace of the new dispensation (Chrysostom, Lampe, and many others), for, though there was grace underlying all God's self-revelation, yet in the next verse the contrast between "Law" and "grace" is too striking to be ignored. The grace replaced by grace means that every grace received is a capacity for higher blessedness. Thus Christian humility is the condition of Divine uplifting; the knowledge that leads to love is the condition of that higher gnosis that is born of love. The faith that accepts mercy blossoms into the joy that is unspeakable and full of glory. Reconciliation with God becomes itself transformed into active communion with him; all union to Christ becomes the harbinger of full identification with him, "he in us and we in him." This is the great principle of the Divine kingdom: "To him that hath shall be given."
(could this be describing the dawning of the indwelling Holy Spirit described in 2 Peter 1:19-21 above?)

Also, please illustrate how your belief can be made into a real world example. I say this because Jesus illustrated spiritual truths all the time by using real world examples (i.e. His parables).

Will you answer my question first? .......how are you doing today Jason?

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Please address the verses I referenced.

Hope that covered it, also when i can respond to comments addressed to my comments here,varies based on what i have going on here at home so please forgive the late response.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

So ignore the problem and just hope it goes away? Does that work with alcoholic or the person who has a serious life threatening wound? I think not. 1 John 1:9 says you have to confess of your sin. Jesus said, repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand. This means forsaking your sin.

1 John 1:9 is addressed to these people just receiving the Gospel btw.......as seen here>

3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (if they truly believe)

 

[Jason0047]

1 John 1:9 is addressed to these people just receiving the Gospel btw.......as seen here>

3That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. (if they truly believe)

No. First, why on Earth would John write to unbelievers? Second, if he is writing to unbelievers, then why does 1 John 2:7 say they are brethren? Why does he say if they sin, they have have an advocate named Jesus Christ that they can go to? For if he is not just the propitiation for their sins, but for the sins of the whole world. Remember, there are no chapter breaks in the original Epistle. So this whole epistle is written to them (i.e. the brethren).

Notice how many times the word "we" appears. If WE confess OUR sins. John is referring to both himself and the brethren he is writing to.

 

[Jason0047]

As for your interpretation of the other verses:

I will have to address those later.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

As for your interpretation of the other verses:

I will have to address those later.

Don't bother,
Continuing another fruitless and circular argument with you where you learn nothing and i learn nothing is not fruitful. It's not my place to entertain you. If you wish to attempt to project your sins on to others and pretend you don't have any sins that is your prerogative but it won't help you grow in Christ's love. Have a nice day J.

 

[gotime]

But the error in the doctrine you follow is that you refuse to see that any Christian has overcome sin unless they perfectly obey the law.

That is not accurate, I can see how you might have got that impression, but I do not see it that way. Overcoming sin happens from the moment one repents and accepts Jesus. while they may not be sinless/obeying the law perfectly at that point does not make them unsaved or not christian. I speak of full overcoming because I speak to more mature Christians of the hope we have in Jesus. Do not think that because I speak of full overcoming that I put anyone who has not made it there in the unsaved boat, because I do not.

You call unclean what God has cleansed.

You continue to judge Christians as sinners because they fail to physically obey the law perfectly.
But Christians are not even under the law, hence they cannot be charged with sin/transgression of the law/unrighteousness (Rom 8:33, 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1). I disagree with this, if we sin we sin and Paul as I have shown says that because we are not under the law does not mean we can sin. now If a person who is not under the law can not be charged with sin when they sin then what Paul said is meaningless. but if one can be charged when not under the law then what Paul said has much meaning:

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Sin has not changed so Paul is asking shall be break the law because we are not under the law? no, this means nothing unless one can indeed be charged with sin while not under the law. in fact if you understood how Paul uses the term you would know that Paul puts those who sin under the law. (I am not referring to slip ups or sins that are done in ignorance.)

See its willful sin that can be and will be charged to anyone under law or under Grace it makes not difference. Yet there is still time to Repent. Someone who has fully overcome Is someone who commits no willful sin at all once saved. But I also acknowledge that we can through Jesus grow to overcome all sin as He makes it known to us.



Whilst our physical body is not perfect, Christians reckon it to be already dead (by faith, crucified with Christ, Rom 6:6) because of sin, Rom 8:10.
A Christian's life is hid with Christ in God, Col 3:3.
We abide in Christ, and in Christ there is no sin, 1John 3:5.

So as a Christian is a new spiritual creation and our identity is now in Christ, (and there is no sin in Christ, 1John 3:5), then why do you continue to say that there is sin in Christians, and thus in Christ?

Funny cause I would say that this is what you are saying, For if one says I am dead and Christ lives in me then would not their sin be Christs? I believe the Spiritual has physical effects. that is why we "walk" according to the Spirit. not just believe but "walk"


A Christian's old physical man is already dead (by faith) because of sin, Rom 8:10. Therefore we don't judge any Christian by whether they obey the law perfectly. Instead we see Christ in each other and ourselves.

By their fruits we shall know them. When I see a "christian" who breaks Gods law then I know either they are not really a Christian or they are ignorant of some truths, either way the issue is fixed by making them aware of the truths they are missing.

And if we see Christ in Christians, then we see Christ's righteousness/holiness/sinlessness in each other.
That's why scripture says below.
Rom 8:33
Who shall lay any thing (this includes sin) to the charge of God's elect?

This is said in regards to people who have the law in their hearts who walk according to the Spirit who are free from the law of sin who are spiritual and not carnal, whose body is dead and this mortal body is alive through the Spirit. This is in regards to those who now fulfill the law. You can't charge a keeper of the law with breaking it can you?1John 3:9
Whosoever is born of God (1John 5:1) doth not commit sin; for his seed (Christ) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Pet 4:1Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

When we believe on Jesus we have overcome.
1John 5:5
Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

But you claim that we have not overcome until we obey the law perfectly. That is error.

Did you miss the fact that those verses said, "can not sin", "does not sin", "ceased from sin" If you sin then you do not fit these texts at all. I do not make a mockery of Gods word by calling light darkness and darkness light. Sin is sin no matter how you dice it.

Do you not know that obedience/action is always connected with that word? Do not reduce belief to some fanciful nothing. Because that is what it seems you are doing. If you do not do the things the Lord says then you do not believe but are in unbelief.

I did notice the words "to come". Recall how I told you that Christians look forward to God's spiritual rest, Heb 4.
As I keep saying, we do not judge the flawed physical that is still around us. It's already dead because of sin, Rom 8:10.

You just ignored the fact that the Sabbath commandment says to look back as a memorial not as a future thing. I know well what Hebrews 4 says and it does not help your case at all. While it does speak of a spiritual rest it also speaks of a physical one. but even your point does not change the "fact" that Hebrews four does not say anything about changing the commandment. SO you are at a loss here.

Deal with the facts not this straw man argument. The commandment says to look back so no matter how you dice it, it does not fit Colossians which looks forward.

BTW, I already answered your point before about taking God's name in vain. Christians don't do this as believing on Jesus is not believing on Je

So then you admit that to believe in Christ = obedience to the law. For if you do not take the name of God in vain then you are obeying the commandment. That is all I have been saying all the time, true faith In Jesus = obedience to Gods law.

Do you not know what believe means?
sus, but instead it's believing on God, John 12:44.

Believe is connected with action

Its funny how you go off at me saying that when we believe that we will keep the law of God and Yet you have said here that you also believe that when we believe we keep the law. Love fulfills the law.

 

[gotime]

Christians should not commit physical adultery if they are obeying Christ's commandment to love others.
But we all are at different stages of growth, so sadly we do see many Christians committing adultery especially as described in Mark 10:11,12.
And when we do wrong we will not profit by it, just as King David did not profit with the wrong he did. God disciplines us.

But what you are missing is the spiritual aspect.
Legalists are committing spiritual adultery.

Christians are married to Christ, Eph 5:31, We're one spirit with the Lord, 1Cor 6:17.

Therefore we should not indulge in spiritual adultery with Hagar, who is symbolic for righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24. That means we cannot mix works of the law, with grace, Rom 11:6.

If you're judging another's righteousness/holiness/sinlessness by whether they obey the law perfectly in this physical life, then you are mixing works of the law, with grace. This is spiritual adultery with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.

No I am sorry but that is not true, Christians do not commit physical or spiritual adultery. that is what unsaved people do.

 

[blue_ladybug]

No I am sorry but that is not true, Christians do not commit physical or spiritual adultery. that is what unsaved people do.

That is not true.. Christians DO commit physical adultery. Just read the tons of threads on here from christians who say they cheated on their wife/husband/gf/bf...that's what adultery is..cheating on your spouse..