Sabbath

eternally-gratefull · Mar 23, 2015

It isn't an opinion it is a historic fact.

Sabbath falls from sundown Friday unto sundown Saturday.
The Roman Catholics changed that to Sunday because they were persecuted by the Roman authority for worshiping God on Saturday, "Saturns Day" , in polytheistic Rome wherein the Sun God was worshiped on his day; Sun-day.

While the Bible has no scripture in the new testament that decrees God himself changed the day of Sabbath to Sunday. It remained in place even in the new testament as many scriptures attest. Even Jesus entered the temple on the Sabbath day. And the Apostles did as well after he departed this world and returned to the Father.
That day was Saturday, not Sunday.

Sunday church service is a RCC concession to ancient pagan practices. Arguing that Saturday is wrong is contrary to what scripture avows as the day of the Lord, the day of rest. While Sunday is derived from a Roman pagan worship practice wherein the sun was revered on its day; Sun-day.

2 be devils advocate here,

the sabbath is a day of rest, not a day of worship. we shoudl worship God every day, not just one day.

thats what I meant earlier about getting legalistic on what it means.

lastofall · Mar 23, 2015

Christ makes it clear that the day of rest was made for man, and not man for the day of rest; beside this Christ answered a man that told Him he will follow him, and Christ told the man that He does not have a place to rest His head [no vacations, no breaks]. In another they asked Christ if it is right to heal on the Sabbath day; Christ answered that it is right to do well on the Sabbath day. Altogether Christ Jesus makes it plain and clear that while we may do good for others, we ought not to rest.

AngelFrog · Mar 23, 2015

Of course we should worship God everyday. However, the Sabbath was a day of rest and worship.

eternally-gratefull said:

eternally-gratefull · Mar 23, 2015

AngelFrog said:

No, the sabbath was a day of rest. and reflecting on what God has done. Not a day to go to church, the jews did that. It does not mean we are to do it.

I do not think God cares if you go to church on saturday or sunday, As long as you rest on Saturday as he wants us too.

john832 · Mar 23, 2015

lastofall said:

Christ makes it clear that the day of rest was made for man, and not man for the day of rest; beside this Christ answered a man that told Him he will follow him, and Christ told the man that He does not have a place to rest His head [no vacations, no breaks]. In another they asked Christ if it is right to heal on the Sabbath day; Christ answered that it is right to do well on the Sabbath day. Altogether Christ Jesus makes it plain and clear that while we may do good for others, we ought not to rest.

Huh?

(ten characters)

gotime · Mar 23, 2015

john832 said:

The above post is a good example of what happens when one approaches the scripture with a preconceived idea and then only reads a verse or two, out of context, looking for support for their own ideas.

Romans 14...

Rom 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

The first thing we see here is that this chapter is about relating to a weak brother.

Rom 14:2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

The subject here? Vegetarianism

Rom 14:3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

So, if you encounter one who is weak in the faith and believes he must eat vegetables only, don’t let this puff you up…

2Co 10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

What is the gold standard here?

1Pe 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Now to the meat and potatoes…

Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Why is eating and fasting (not eating) connected to days here? Let’s see…

Luk 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

From Bullingers Companion Bible…

Luke 18:12

twice in the week. The law prescribed only one in the year (Lev_16:29. Num_29:7). By the time of Zec_8:19 there were four yearly fasts. In our Lord's day they were bi-weekly (Monday and Thursday), between Passover and Pentecost; and between the Feast of Tabernacles and the Dedication.

Yes they fasted two days a week, Monday and Thursday, EVERY MONDAY and EVERY THURSDAY.

Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Rom 14:15 But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died.

Now Paul shifts his attention to meat offered to idols. At the time, meat and drink were offered to pagan idols. After it was offered it was sold in a meat market called the ‘Shambles’.

1Co 10:25 Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake:

Shambles…

G3111
μάκελλον
makellon
Thayer Definition:
1) a place where meat and other articles of food are sold, meat market
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: of Latin origin [macellum]
Citing in TDNT: 4:370, 549

There were those who were weak in the faith (verse 1) who were offended by this. They somehow thought that eating that food was somehow connecting them with the idolatrous practices around them. This is why the following is written…

Rom 14:16 Let not then your good be evil spoken of:
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Meat here is…

G1035
βρῶσις
brōsis
bro'-sis
From the base of G977; (abstractly) eating (literally or figuratively); by extension (concretely) food (literally or figuratively): - eating, food, meat.

Notice it is food, not clean or unclean flesh.

G4213
πόσις
posis
pos'-is
From the alternate of G4095; a drinking (the act), that is, (concretely) a draught: - drink.

Drinking, can be alcoholic or non-alcoholic beverages. Paul was dealing with ascetism and the belief that doing without was somehow a show of character. He dealt with this issue at Colossae also…

Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using

after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

Rom 14:18 For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.
Rom 14:19 Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Rom 14:20 For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

The word for meat here is broma, from Thayer’s…

G1033
βρῶμα
brōma
Thayer Definition:
1) that which is eaten, food
Part of Speech: noun neuter
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the base of G977
Citing in TDNT: 1:642, 111

Again, we are dealing with food.

Rom 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

So, it is not dealing with clean and unclean, but with flesh (meat) and wine (drink) that makes a weak brother stumble.

Rom 14:22 Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
Rom 14:23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

There is no passage in Rom 14 that deals with the Sabbath or clean and unclean meats. The subjects are vegetarianism, fasting and food and drink offered to idols.

Well done actually looking at what the text says rather than just using it to say what you want. But I doubt anyone will actually address the text friend, you will just get some straw man argument or post other texts but they wont and can't address the text itself because that would bring down their traditions.

gotime · Mar 23, 2015

sparty-g said:

michael56, I love your passion for Messiah and look forward to seeing you in heaven. However, I respectfully disagree with your position with regards to the seventh day Sabbath and what you say here. Four quick thoughts:

1. On the need to identify a verse that explicitly states a Gentile convert under the new covenant must observe a Saturday sabbath: I believe you are starting with a false axiomatic presupposition. This reasoning assumes it is incumbent upon God to have to re-enumerate His will for His children. I do not believe this to be the case. He has already spoken it once and it was recorded for posterity. There is no need for Him to have to list it all again after the cross, particularly in a way in which we would be expected to piece it together from multiple authors and letters. He already met with Moses and laid it all out. The repetition and the deeper Spiritual and theological explorations of the NT writings is to our benefit, for sure, but I see this as better understanding the path we're walking, not God being required to lay down every individual stone again. This assumption of necessity of re-enumeration is what leads to, in my opinion, the false premise that if something is not explicitly repeated in the NT writings, then it's not for Christians. Bestiality is not explicitly mentioned in the NT writings (as far as I know), but everyone knows it is a sin because God has already spoken on the matter.

2. On conviction by the Spirit: we shouldn't assume that the Sabbath isn't for Christians just because a large number of them don't feel convicted about not keeping it. The truth is that there are a number of people who do feel convicted about not keeping it. Moreover, the large number of denominations and all with their different understanding of the Christian walk is evidence enough that conviction is not uniformly received across the body of believers, or else there would be one denomination and we would all be walking in the same manner. So the question becomes: why isn't this conviction being uniformly received? I would contend that it's because we let ourselves and the world get in the way of it. Our own desires, our own thoughts, our own traditions, the ways of those around us, etc. -- all these things get in the way and direct our paths. For example, you and I clearly have different convictions on this matter, so there's all the evidence we need that there are other influences aside from the Spirit. We both have the Spirit, yet we both agree that one of us is being pulled in the right direction on the matter and the other is not. So, if the Sabbath is for Christians, it is not surprising to me at all that a large number of believers could be misled on the issue. Majority opinion is not the standard of truth. Anyone who is a Protestant inherently agrees that the majority was wrong on several important doctrinal issues for roughly 1,200 years. If the Catholic majority was right historically, then we'd all be Catholics today.

3. On the literal letter: I agree, the letter kills. The Torah-Law identifies God's will for His children, which means it identifies sin (being transgression of that will). Anyone outside of covenant relationship with God is dead as a transgressor of that will because they are subject to the penalty that transgression brings: death. But anyone within covenant relationship with God is made alive through the Messiah because He has paid that penalty for us. So yes, the letter on its own kills apart from relationship with God. And to rely on the our own works for salvation is death. But for those in relationship with God, who rely on Him for salvation and have received it, the Torah-Law is a tree of life to those who grasp it (Prov. 3:17-18). The Spirit gives life but this does not mean the Spirit automatically excludes the letter. King David had a circumcised heart and the Spirit of God. The letter didn't kill him regardless of his terrible transgressions. He had found favor with God and was in relationship with Him. He rejoiced in the Torah-Law (cf., Psalms 119) and found it to be freedom.

4. Finally, on disputable matters: you and I understand this differently. In my view, a disputable matter is one not covered by God in His instructions. But God's Torah-Law is not disputable; i.e., it's not for us to make up our own minds about. For example, in Romans 14 the issue is vegetarianism, of which there are no direct commands in the Torah-Law on how to handle the specific situation being discussed in that chapter. So, it becomes a disputable matter. The Sabbath, on the other hand, has commands and plenty of evidence about its blessing, holiness, and consecration for observance. Thus, it is not a disputable matter. We may disagree about it, and we certainly do, but this does not make it matter on which we are able to come up with our own ruling, and whichever ruling we come up with is fine. No, God has His ruling on the matter and our duty is to discover that truth. A disputable matter is: "You are convinced of your way, I am convinced of my way, and both are acceptable." But on the Sabbath, "You have your way and I have my way" isn't going to cut it. There is one way: His. Now, what is His way?

In the end of all this, we are going to disagree for the time being. So for now, our only option is to respectfully agree to disagree. We can continue to discuss if we feel it's profitable to simply share what we personally believe, but the root of it is we are all starting with different assumptions on foundational issues regarding the Torah-Law, the New Covenant, and more. Our Sabbath views are really a result of these other assumptions, so discussing it purely in isolation is impossible.

Well written, God Bless.

mailmandan · Mar 23, 2015

john832 said:

Show me from the scriptures otherwise. One of the principal arguments for Friday is found in Mark 15:42, which notes that Jesus was crucified "the day before the Sabbath." If that was the weekly Sabbath, Saturday, then that fact leads to a Friday crucifixion, which is not unscriptural.

The Lord's Day in Christianity is generally Sunday, the day of communal worship. It is observed by most Christians as the weekly memorial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is said in the canonical Gospels to have been witnessed alive from the dead early on the first day of the week. Not that those specific words "The Lord's Day" are specifically spelled out in scripture but neither is the word "Trinity" but we don't argue against one God in essence/nature yet three distinct persons. So why all the disagreements? What days do you believe that Jesus was crucified and resurrected on and how would that change whether or not the Sabbath laws are binding on Christians today? Do you keep the Sabbath?

Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord has said: 'Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.'

Exodus 16:25 - Then Moses said, "Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field.

Exodus 16:26 - Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, there will be none.

Exodus 16:29 - See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Exodus 31:14 - You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15 - Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:16 - Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Exodus 35:2 - Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Exodus 35:3 - You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

Do you believe that these Sabbath laws are binding on Christians under the New Covenant?

mailmandan · Mar 23, 2015

john832 said:

Show me from the scriptures otherwise. One of the principal arguments for Friday is found in Mark 15:42, which notes that Jesus was crucified "the day before the Sabbath." If that was the weekly Sabbath, Saturday, then that fact leads to a Friday crucifixion, which is not unscriptural.

The Lord's Day in Christianity is generally Sunday, the day of communal worship. It is observed by most Christians as the weekly memorial of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who is said in the canonical Gospels to have been witnessed alive from the dead early on the first day of the week. Not that those specific words "The Lord's Day" are specifically spelled out in scripture but neither is the word "Trinity" but we don't argue against one God in essence/nature yet three distinct persons. So why all the disagreements? What days do you believe that Jesus was crucified and resurrected on and how would that change whether or not the Sabbath laws are binding on Christians today? Do you keep the Sabbath?

Exodus 16:23 - Then he said to them, "This is what the Lord has said: 'Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning.'

Exodus 16:25 - Then Moses said, "Eat that today, for today is a Sabbath to the Lord; today you will not find it in the field.

Exodus 16:26 - Six days you shall gather it, but on the seventh day, which is the Sabbath, there will be none.

Exodus 16:29 - See! For the Lord has given you the Sabbath; therefore He gives you on the sixth day bread for two days. Let every man remain in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Exodus 31:14 - You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people.

Exodus 31:15 - Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exodus 31:16 - Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant.

Exodus 35:2 - Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh day shall be a holy day for you, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Exodus 35:3 - You shall kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

Do you believe that these Sabbath laws are binding on Christians under the New Covenant?

valiant · Mar 23, 2015

john832 said:

Perhaps that is true of you?

That Romans 14 deals with vegetarianism we can both agree. And this is not because of any reference to clean and unclean, nor because it is food sacrificed to idols. That idea does not enter at this stage. . But that the passage deals with fasting is not in the text. Abstention from food is already dealt with in verses 2-3. It has nothing to do with fasting. It refers to eating and not eating certain foods. To be consistent the abstention from food in verse 6 must also be seen as in respect of vegetarianism. There too there is the thought of eating and drinking certain foods. There is no thought of fasting anywhere. You only introduce it in order to support your views on the Sabbath.

So having dealt with vegetarianism he moves on to observance of a special day, and then moves back to vegetarianism as a recap, because what he has said about observing the day has brought it back to mind. You have no justification whatsoever for introducing fasting. You only do so to support your argument.

In context fasting is not even considered. Of course you have now convinced yourself of it, so you will no doubt keep convincing yourself of it, but it is not being honest with the text. So don't accuse others of introducing into the text what you fail to see.

The emphasis in verse 5-7 is on the observance of a special day or of all days to the LORD. The reference to food is a postscript, an added comment. That being so the obvious inference is that it refers to the Sabbath.

The passage then moves on to deal with clean and unclean food. That is what it states in verse 14-15. The laws of uncleanness are just as binding as the Sabbath. Do you observe them? The mention of drinking does not remove that emphasis. With regard to that Paul is probably thinking of drunkenness (13.13). The emphasis all the way through is on food. The mention of drink is an afterthought.. The chapter even ends with a reference just to food. And there is no mention of food offered to idols. That is a red herring.

So being honest with it the chapter deals with three things in the light of not judging others, vegetarianism, observance of a day to the LORD, and avoidance of unclean foods. That being so the natural interpretation of observing a day to the LORD is the Sabbath. The Roman church had a large Jewish contingent in it.

gotime · Mar 23, 2015

valiant said:

Perhaps that is true of you?

That Romans 14 deals with vegetarianism we can both agree. And this is not because of any reference to clean and unclean, nor because it is food sacrificed to idols. That idea does not enter at this stage. . But that the passage deals with fasting is not in the text. Abstention from food is already dealt with in verses 2-3. It has nothing to do with fasting. It refers to eating and not eating certain foods. To be consistent the abstention from food in verse 6 must also be seen as in respect of vegetarianism. There too there is the thought of eating and drinking certain foods. There is no thought of fasting anywhere. You only introduce it in order to support your views on the Sabbath.

So having dealt with vegetarianism he moves on to observance of a special day, and then moves back to vegetarianism as a recap, because what he has said about observing the day has brought it back to mind. You have no justification whatsoever for introducing fasting. You only do so to support your argument.

In context fasting is not even considered. Of course you have now convinced yourself of it, so you will no doubt keep convincing yourself of it, but it is not being honest with the text. So don't accuse others of introducing into the text what you fail to see.

The emphasis in verse 5-7 is on the observance of a special day or of all days to the LORD. The reference to food is a postscript, an added comment. That being so the obvious inference is that it refers to the Sabbath.

The passage then moves on to deal with clean and unclean food. That is what it states in verse 14-15. The laws of uncleanness are just as binding as the Sabbath. Do you observe them? The mention of drinking does not remove that emphasis. With regard to that Paul is probably thinking of drunkenness (13.13). The emphasis all the way through is on food. The mention of drink is an afterthought.. The chapter even ends with a reference just to food. And there is no mention of food offered to idols. That is a red herring.

So being honest with it the chapter deals with three things in the light of not judging others, vegetarianism, observance of a day to the LORD, and avoidance of unclean foods. That being so the natural interpretation of observing a day to the LORD is the Sabbath. The Roman church had a large Jewish contingent in it.

Not so, your natural interpretation is lacking.

There are other days observed in the Old Covenant that are not the 7th day Sabbath. and the very Fact that there is no indication of a change or annulling of the 7th day Sabbath is sufficient proof that the 7th day Sabbath is not in topic here.

seed_time_harvest · Mar 23, 2015

JFSurvivor said:

When JESUS was born he was under law and and he said not one jot or tittle would pass away from the law until all be fulfilled.JESUS knew that he was the only one that could fulfill the law and the only way for people under the law to make it to heaven was by Faith in his finished work.

Whether it's old covenant or new covenant, faith in JESUS is the only way into heaven but nevertheless those born under the the old covenant/law would be the least and those born under the new covenant/Grace would be the greater.

seed_time_harvest · Mar 23, 2015

The purpose of the Sabbath was REST.
Under Grace our REST is in JESUS.

AngelFrog · Mar 23, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

Can you post the scripture where Jesus abolished the Sabbath in his own words?

Mark 2:27 tells us the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.

Matthew 5:18-20

(18) For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (19) Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." New King James Version

The letter of the law that the Pharisees tried to keep was not enough—especially for us. We have to exceed the letter of the law. Here, Jesus was so specific about the continuance of the law from the Old Covenant to the New that He referred to the smallest punctuation and pronunciation marks contained in the written law, the "jot and tittle."

Most modern theology discards the letter in favor of the spirit, but one extreme is as bad as the other. The true Christian needs both the written letter of the law as well as its spirit to keep it properly.

To keep God's law properly, we have to learn to recognize the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law means God's original intent or purpose behind each law.

When God designed the Sabbath, for example, He intended it to be a blessing to human beings. He designed it to be a refreshing rest and an opportunity both to recuperate physically after six days of work and to draw close to Him in love and to worship Him, as well as to deepen love for the brethren through fellowship and outgoing concern.

Jesus knew the spirit of the Sabbath commandment. Therefore, He knew that the split second of divine effort involved in healing was a valid use of time on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:10-12). Because of Jesus' insight into the divine purpose behind the Sabbath, He freed the crippled worshipper of his burden. He experienced a wonderful and exciting blessing because Jesus understood the spirit of the law. God's law is always a blessing to those who recognize the spirit of the law.

— Martin G. Collins

KohenMatt · Mar 23, 2015

JFSurvivor said:

I'm a few days behind, but......

Do you need to keep the Sabbath for salvation? No.

Does God tell His people to keep the Sabbath forever? Yes.
Did He ever tell His people to stop celebrating it? No.
Did Jesus keep the Sabbath? Yes.

The verse you quoted in Matthew is crucial. You're absolutely right that Jesus said those who don't keep the law and teach others to not do it will be the least in the Kingdom. Those who keep the Law and teach others to keep it will be considered greatest.

The purpose of the Sabbath is to have a day completely set apart to God where nothing other than being in His presence is done. God said that it would be a sign that His people are separated to God.

And honestly, the Sabbath isn't that hard to keep, Biblically. The instructions regarding the Sabbath are pretty simple. It's when man starts adding to the instructions to the Sabbath that it becomes difficult. When people start focusing on the letter of the Law as opposed to the Spirit of the God who gave the Law, a lot of legalism is going to take place.

michael56 · Mar 24, 2015

valiant said:

Perhaps that is true of you?

That Romans 14 deals with vegetarianism we can both agree. And this is not because of any reference to clean and unclean, nor because it is food sacrificed to idols. That idea does not enter at this stage. . But that the passage deals with fasting is not in the text. Abstention from food is already dealt with in verses 2-3. It has nothing to do with fasting. It refers to eating and not eating certain foods. To be consistent the abstention from food in verse 6 must also be seen as in respect of vegetarianism. There too there is the thought of eating and drinking certain foods. There is no thought of fasting anywhere. You only introduce it in order to support your views on the Sabbath.

So having dealt with vegetarianism he moves on to observance of a special day, and then moves back to vegetarianism as a recap, because what he has said about observing the day has brought it back to mind. You have no justification whatsoever for introducing fasting. You only do so to support your argument.

In context fasting is not even considered. Of course you have now convinced yourself of it, so you will no doubt keep convincing yourself of it, but it is not being honest with the text. So don't accuse others of introducing into the text what you fail to see.

The emphasis in verse 5-7 is on the observance of a special day or of all days to the LORD. The reference to food is a postscript, an added comment. That being so the obvious inference is that it refers to the Sabbath.

The passage then moves on to deal with clean and unclean food. That is what it states in verse 14-15. The laws of uncleanness are just as binding as the Sabbath. Do you observe them? The mention of drinking does not remove that emphasis. With regard to that Paul is probably thinking of drunkenness (13.13). The emphasis all the way through is on food. The mention of drink is an afterthought.. The chapter even ends with a reference just to food. And there is no mention of food offered to idols. That is a red herring.

So being honest with it the chapter deals with three things in the light of not judging others, vegetarianism, observance of a day to the LORD, and avoidance of unclean foods. That being so the natural interpretation of observing a day to the LORD is the Sabbath. The Roman church had a large Jewish contingent in it.

It is quite plain what romans ch14 states, however, in order for people to cling to the ''old wine'' they will do gymnastics with the text, as much as is needed in order for them to demand you follow their cherished beliefs.

For many after drinking the old wine don't want the new, for they say ''The old is better'' Luke5:39

michael56 · Mar 24, 2015

sparty-g said:

Thank you for your polite and courteous post.

I believe point one is covered by the law God requiring us to keep is placed on our heart and written on our minds at the point of conversion. You would agree I am sure that if God requires Gentile converts to observe a Saturday Sabbath, that law would have to be placed within a Christian. You would also agree sin is transgression of the law. Therefore, if a Christian has no heartfelt conviction they commit sin by refusing to observe specifically a Saturday Sabbath, that only leaves two possibilities. Either a law to observe a Saturday Sabbath has not been written on their mind and placed on their heart, or, they cannot be a Christian. I can assure you that is the spiritual reality. It is better to face it, than refuse to do so.

Point 2

The truth is that there are a number of people who do feel convicted about not keeping it. Moreover, the large number of denominations and all with their different understanding of the Christian walk is evidence enough that conviction is not uniformly received across the body of believers, or else there would be one denomination and we would all be walking in the same manner. So the question becomes: why isn't this conviction being uniformly received?

Because firstly Paul calls it a ''disputable matter'' Secondly, many are led by the letter according to conviction. There is a dividing line in Christianity in my opinion, and it is not so much to do with denomination but rather the Holy Spirit. Some churches seek to be led of the Spirit, and accept the fullness of the Spirit as is available to them, and some do not. In my view, the born again person does not need to look to any specific day as a Sabbath, and I am utterly convinced of that in my own mind. The spirit in us transcends the need for that

Point 3

But the law God requires us to keep is within us. This is one of the two core principals on which the new covenant is based. The leaders of the Christian church did not ask Gentile converts to observe all of Torah did they. Were they wrong? Many of them had been Christ's disciples. If a Christian refused to observe a law of God written on their mind and placed on their heart, I can only repeat, they would have to be conscious before God they were sinning. Incidentally, I know of people who go to a church who share your views as to observing torah, and yet, they have no conscience of what most would term flagrant sin. It is something baffling to me to say the least. They rely on the literal letter to know what is right and wrong, and yet, they appear not to be convicted they sin when they break part of the letter they insist is followed. This would show, the Spirit within us, is far more reliable a source of conviction of what is right and wrong, not relying on the literal letter as such

Point 4

Paul is quite clear in Rom 14 All food is clean. He is also clear on the fact one person holds one day more sacred than another, another person considers every day alike, each one should be fully convinced in their own mind. He also tells us in colossians 2 not to let anyone judge you in regard to a Sabbath day. Of course you cannot accept this as written, but it would be pretty poor judgement of Paul to state something so plainly and mean something else wouldn't it. I am sure he meant what he wrote under guidance of the Holy Spirit

Let me finish by once again stating. It is wonderful you feel blessed by observing a Saturday Sabbath. But you do not have the right to insist everyone else must also observe a Saturday Sabbath

God Bless

john832 · Mar 24, 2015

mailmandan said:

There have been many posts that show that Christ was crucified on Wednesday, buried at sunset Wednesday and raised three days and three nights later on Sabbath afternoon. Bear with me, I will write it up and post shortly.

Every scripture you posted refers to the seventh day not the first day. Does that tell you anything?

Let me give you a few N.T. scriptures and then you can tell me which day is incumbent on N.T. Christians...

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Christ says here that His Law will not pass away.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If you will enter into life, ignore some of the Commandments? It says keep the Commandments, doesn't it?

Act 13:13 Now when Paul and his company loosed from Paphos, they came to Perga in Pamphylia: and John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.
Act 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and sat down.

So, here is Paul on which day? The seventh day Sabbath.

Act 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.

Here are the Gentiles asking that Paul would preach to them on the seventh day Sabbath. Notice he did not say come back tomorrow so that I can show you the new way. He simply came back the next seventh day Sabbath...

Act 13:44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

Here is nearly the entire city of Gentiles back on the seventh day Sabbath. Why didn't Paul reveal to them the day had been changed? If it were changed, he kept it well hidden.

Act 16:12 And from thence to Philippi, which is the chief city of that part of Macedonia, and a colony: and we were in that city abiding certain days.
Act 16:13 And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and spake unto the women which resorted thither.
Act 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
Act 16:15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.

Now we see the example of Lydia in the Gentile city of Philippi baptized into the church on the seventh day Sabbath. Again, why no instruction about the change from the seventh day to the first day.

Act 17:1 Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
Act 17:2 And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

Paul's manner was the seventh day Sabbath. Notice the question being addressed here?

Act 17:3 Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.

The Sabbath was NOT the question, Jesus being the Christ was the question.

Act 18:1 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

Act 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Notice here what day he reasoned with them on? Why did Paul keep the change from the seventh day to the first day such a secret? Because there was no change.

Now consider the conference in Acts 15...

Act 15:2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

This question brought such an uproar that a church conference had to be called...

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

And what was the question?

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Circumcision! How much more of an uproar would there have been over the changing of one of the Ten Commandments? Yet we read no mention of the change of the Sabbath to Sunday anywhere in the New Testament.

We do however read this...

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

Seems innocuous enough but what does it really say? The word for rest here is Sabbatismos and means keeping the Sabbath. The Diaglott has this...

Heb 4:9 Therefore remains a keeping of a sabbath for the people of the God.

And what Sabbath (rest) is this referring to?

Heb 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.

If there were a change in a doctrine that was as important as the changing the Sabbath to Sunday, why is there no mention in the New Testament? There was quite a lot of arguing raised by the change of circumcision from the flesh to the heart, yet the Sabbath is not mentioned.

john832 · Mar 24, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

Got some scripture for that?

john832 · Mar 24, 2015

seed_time_harvest said:

Notice that He said until ALL is fulfilled, show me where this is fulfilled...

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

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