Sabbath

[eternally-gratefull]

maybe you should go back and read through my back posts on this Sabbaths subject,

i will be happy to answer a question that i have [not] covered.

why should I go back? You can not answer my comments, but must have me go back? thats pride. Thanks, But I have already shown how the sabbath is not what the religious legalists claim it is.

God does not want your religion, he wants your love.

 

[john832]

Gotta break this up, it was too long...

Yes, the first day of the week "Sunday" follows the seventh day. Mark 15:42 shows that Jesus was crucified "the day before the Sabbath" (Sabbath is Saturday) which was a Friday crucifixion.

Well, we just saw that the Sabbath that immediately followed the crucifixion was not the weekly Sabbath but rather an annual Sabbath, the High Day known as the First Day of Unleavened Bread.

I'm not arguing that the Law passed away. Christ fulfilled the Law, but Romans 6:14 - we are not under Law but under grace. John 1:17 For the Law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.

Wonderful, then is that a license to break the Ten Commandments? Is it OK to break any of them? Is it still a sin to kill, steal or lie?

The only one that people really don’t want to recognize is number four. That is the real problem isn’t it?

Before showing him the way to life, Jesus wanted to impress on the young man both the high standard required by God and the absolute futility of seeking salvation by his own merit. This should have elicited a response about the impossibility of obeying the law perfectly, but instead the young man confidently (and self righteously) declared that he qualified for heaven under those terms (vs. 20). This man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). How many commandments did he break right there? His face fell and he went away sad because he could never part with his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. By His words to the rich young ruler, Christ did not mean to say that any man would be saved by the works of the law, for the Bible teaches plainly that such will not be the case (Romans 3:20-30). Jesus responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or Nicodemus or this person the same way did He? Yet the consistent pattern in scripture is saved through faith, not works.

OK, so now that you have rationalized Mat 19:17-22, tell me, is this still a true statement?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Or is it false? Which is it?

I'm not arguing that the Sabbath day changed from Saturday to Sunday and now on Sunday we must bake what we will bake today, and boil what we will boil; and lay up for ourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning;

Does my wife roast a turkey on the Sabbath? No, she does it the day before. Tell me, why would it be OK to do a lot of hard, heavy work on the Day Christ said to rest on? We do the heavy lifting on the day before so that we have minor preparation on the Sabbath. This is part of the instruction by the way…

Exo 12:16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.

or let every man remain in his place; and let no man go out of his place on the seventh day;

You do know that attending Sabbath services is expected don’t you?

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

H4744

מִקְרָא
miqrâ'
mik-raw'
From H7121; something called out, that is, a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the palce); also a rehearsal: - assembly, calling, convocation, reading.
Total KJV occurrences: 23

A public meeting.

and anyone who works on the Sabbath shall be cut off from his people and put to death (have you rounded up any people lately and stoned your neighbor to death for mowing his lawn on the Sabbath?);

And I suppose you think that the instruction for capital punishment was a vigilante system? How much of the Pentateuch have you actually read verses what you have heard other people say?

Read Deut 17 & 19. When an accusation was made, the defendant was brought before the duly constituted representatives of the government. For a capital case, two or three eyewitnesses were required. The testimony was heard and a decision was rendered. If the defendant was found guilty, the Priest (who acted as judge) sentenced the defendant to execution. If the eyewitnesses were found to be lying, they were executed. If the decision was too hard for the Priests, they brought the matter before God and He made the decision.

Similar to what we have today here in the states except this system worked much better.

 

[john832]

and kindle no fire throughout your dwellings on the Sabbath day. Do you observe all of this? Is this binding on Christians under the New Covenant?

Yes, I think it is. Let’s understand what kindling a fire is…

Exo 35:1 And Moses gathered all the congregation of the children of Israel together, and said unto them, These are the words which the LORD hath commanded, that ye should do them.
Exo 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
Exo 35:3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

Now let’s read this in context. What does verse 2 speak to? Work, labor. What do the verses immediately following verse 3 speak to? The construction of the Tabernacle. In that day metal work, tool sharpening, etc was done around a communal fire. God is saying here that His Sabbath is so important that even work on the Tabernacle should not be done on the Sabbath. It is a day of rest from our jobs, from our work.

More instruction on the Sabbath…

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

For doing your own pleasure, John Gill has this…

from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; that is, if thou turnest away, or dost abstain from doing thine own servile work, the business of thy calling; which may be agreeable for the sake of the profit of it; or from recreations and amusements, which may be lawfully indulged on another day:

Who said the day changed with all it's rules and regulations? Paul said in Colossians 2:16 - let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. It sounds to me like you are looking to be justified by keeping the law.

This one has been done to death so I will approach it from another angle…

Don’t let anyone judge you for being black or Hispanic or red or any other race. Now what happened to the person? Did they immediately change race? That is what you are saying when you misread this verse. The verse says…

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Don’t let anyone judge you FOR DOING these things does away with them?

James 2:10 - For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. Good luck with that!

So, are you saying that this verse is false? What it says is that when we break the Law, we are guilty of all and need the sacrifice of Christ. We need Grace but the understanding of this passage comes from reading all of it…

Jas 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

So if you respect persons and mistreat some and treat others well, you are just as guilty as one who commits murder or adultery. You have broken the second Great Command. Where in this passage do you see the Law done away? It says if you break one you are guilty of all. How does that do away with the Law? What it does is emphasize our need to strive to obey and our need for grace.

I don't call Sunday the Jewish Sabbath day and I don't put my neighbor to death for working on Saturday or Sunday either. The Jewish Sabbath was the last day of the week or Saturday and is nowhere affirmed as binding on Christians under the New Covenant.

Let me give you a piece of advice, if your Bible says…

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Jews: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Or

Lev 23:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Jews, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are the Jews’ feasts.
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Jews in all your dwellings.

Return it and get your money back, it contains misprints.

You went through a lot of trouble to disprove something that I was not claiming. So do you keep the Jewish Sabbath on Saturday? Do you bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourself all that remains, to be kept until morning? Do you remain in your place and not go out of your place on the seventh day? Do you never work on the Sabbath? Have any of your people been cut off (are they Jewish?) and or put to death for working on the Sabbath?) Do you kindle no fire (no cooking) throughout your dwelling on the Sabbath day? Do you believe this will help you merit your salvation?

Answered this already and you forget this…

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

Yes, I went to a lot of trouble to show you the truth of the Sabbath. It was the day God set apart at creation, it is in force now and will be in the Millennium. What you do with this information is up to you.

 

[john832]

But the people to whom Paul was speaking did not observe the Jewish practise of evening to evening. To them the first day of the week began at midnight and ended at midnight. That was why Paul emphasised the fact.

Indeed you have pinpointed the folly of arguing about the Sabbath. The Sabbath was evening to evening in Palestine. Move to the other side of the world and no one knows which is the Sabbath. It changes along with the international date line.

Uh, why do you say that? I keep the Sabbath from sunset to sunset 2000 years after this. Why do you believe that they did not keep the Sabbath as they should have?

As far as no one knows which day is the Sabbath half way around the world, that is an interesting thought. Your employer tells you that you have Saturday off and you tell him, I don't have any idea what day that is. The first thing he should do is fire you if you don't even know what day of the week it is.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Can you post the scripture where Jesus abolished the Sabbath in his own words?

Mark 2:27 tells us the Sabbath was made for man not man for the Sabbath.

Matthew 5:18-20


(18) For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (19) Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (20) For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven." New King James Version


The letter of the law that the Pharisees tried to keep was not enough—especially for us. We have to exceed the letter of the law. Here, Jesus was so specific about the continuance of the law from the Old Covenant to the New that He referred to the smallest punctuation and pronunciation marks contained in the written law, the "jot and tittle."

Most modern theology discards the letter in favor of the spirit, but one extreme is as bad as the other. The true Christian needs both the written letter of the law as well as its spirit to keep it properly.

To keep God's law properly, we have to learn to recognize the spirit of the law. The spirit of the law means God's original intent or purpose behind each law.

When God designed the Sabbath, for example, He intended it to be a blessing to human beings. He designed it to be a refreshing rest and an opportunity both to recuperate physically after six days of work and to draw close to Him in love and to worship Him, as well as to deepen love for the brethren through fellowship and outgoing concern.

Jesus knew the spirit of the Sabbath commandment. Therefore, He knew that the split second of divine effort involved in healing was a valid use of time on the Sabbath (Matthew 12:10-12). Because of Jesus' insight into the divine purpose behind the Sabbath, He freed the crippled worshipper of his burden. He experienced a wonderful and exciting blessing because Jesus understood the spirit of the law. God's law is always a blessing to those who recognize the spirit of the law.

— Martin G. Collins

Hello AngelFrog
I don't think JESUS would say the law would pass until all of it be fulfilled then say that the sabbath is abolished.

And i agree with what scripture says there in Mark 2:27.
The sabbath was made for man ,but if a person is going to church on saturday out of obligation then i think that is legalism.
JESUS is my sabbath whether its saturday or sunday or anyday.

Are you under grace or law?
remember it can't be both

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Got some scripture for that?

The purpose of the Sabbath was REST.
Under Grace our REST is in JESUS.

Matthew 11:28
king james version(kjv)

28.)Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

 

[valiant]

First of all, it is important…

Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Christ says it is the ONLY sign He would give. This sign identifies Him as the TRUE Messiah.

But we know that in Jewish circles 'three days and three nights' simply indicated a part of a day, a day and a part of the day. This is why other Scriptures say that the resurrection was on the third day.



Let’s look at the scriptures and see if Friday/Sunday holds up…

Sunday worship is based on a Sunday morning resurrection tradition. The truth is that Christ was resurrected about sunset on Sabbath afternoon.

But Scripture nowhere says so
And since you want the scriptures, here they are…

We already read Mat 12:39-40 stating that was the sign that Christ was the true Messiah, so when do we start counting? There are a couple of directions to come from.

First one is the seventy weeks prophecy of Daniel 9…

A very doubtful basis. The chapter with a hundred interpretations

Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

The decree went forth in 457BC.

That is your theory without any basis in fact. In fact 'the word went forth' while Daniel was praying, (Dan 9.23). Read the Hebrew. In other words in around 538 BC. But of course that doesn't fit your theories. So ignore what Daniel said and choose your own date.

7 weeks plus 62 weeks equals 69 weeks.

there are 69 'sevens'. There is no suggestion of 'days' or 'years' anywhere. Again you just select what suits your ideas.

The angel said, not seventy years but seventy sevens. He REPLACED years by sevens.

There are 483 days in 69 weeks. Now we apply the day for a year principle (Num 14:34 and Ezek 4:6) and we have 483 years.

There is no such things as 'a year for a day' principle. I'll bet you also believe in the 'thousand years for a day principle? Neither Numbers nor Ezekiel were 'establishing a principle'. Numbers was simply saying that God would make them pay for each day that they had spent in spying by a year's punishment. That is not what Daniel is talking about. He does not even mention days. Ezekiel was demonstrating the time of God's judgment and it is specifically said (as in Numbers) that each day he lay on his side would represent a year. There is no such statement in Daniel. You are simply speculating.

So add 483 years to 457BC and we come to 27AD the year Christ began His 3-1/2 year ministry. This puts the crucifixion in 31AD. The Passover was on Wednesday, April 25, 31AD.

But 483 Jewish years (12 moon periods) do NOT bring us to 27 AD. Your calculations are based on a basic fallacy.

Christ was crucified on the Passover which was a Wednesday. Now notice Mat 12:40 says He would be in the tomb for three days and three nights. How long is a day?

You have no evidence at all that it was on a Wednesday. It was in fact on the 'day of preparation' which was a Friday.

Joh 11:9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world.
Joh 11:10 But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

Daylight portion is 12 hours and the night portion then is 12 hours.

But the hours are not our hours. The sundial was divided into 12 portions for the day. They were not what we use as hours.

So what else precludes a Friday/Sunday burial resurrection…

Nothing.

I believe you mentioned Mark 15:42…

Mar 15:42 And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath,

Now what Sabbath is this? The weekly Sabbath?

yes even to this day the Greeks call Friday the day of preparation. When mentioned in isolation 'the Sabbath' meant the weekly Sabbath, not a ceremonial Sabbath.

Lev 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD'S passover.
Lev 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
Lev 23:7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

irtrelevant

The day after Passover was the First Day of Unleavened Bread and it is a Sabbath, an annual Sabbath and as we will see later, it is called an HIGH DAY.

A ceremonial Sabbath NOT 'the Sabbath'.

Mar 15:47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid.

This was on Friday before sunset. They wanted to anoint His body for burial immediately but could not because it was a Sabbath. But they would do it as soon as the Sabbath was over. That is on Sunday morning.

These ladies saw where He was buried but don’t stop reading there…

Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

Precisely.

When did they buy and prepare them?

Before Friday sunset. They would have bought them in preparation for His burial while He was on the cross.

Luk 23:55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.

Remember Mark 15:47? Here is the same account in Luke.

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

See,it was on Friday the preparation for the Sabbath.

This requires them to prepare the spices and then rest again. Another Sabbath that week. So they returned and prepared the spices and ointments. They did not do this on the Sabbath that immediately followed His entombment. For one thing, no shops would be open to buy the spices and ointments and secondly, they did not prepare them on the Sabbath. They did this the day after the First Day of Unleavened Bread.

But that is not what it says. Once Jesus was sentenced they knew that they would need spices (they did not know what was going to happen but they knew He would need burying). There was plenty of time to buy them on the Friday.

Notice…

Joh 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Joh 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

If Passover was on the Friday then the next day would be a Sabbath, and it would also be a High Day as the day after Passover.

Notice here the day immediately after the crucifixion was an HIGH DAY? It was the annual Sabbath, the First Day of Unleavened Bread. It occurred on Thursday. The ladies did not have time to buy and prepare the spices and ointments prior to sunset, and the next day was an high day, an annual Sabbath, so they could not prepare them then. Now again notice in Luke 23…

If it occurred on a Thursday why did they not anoint Jesus on the Friday? And they had had the whole time when Jesus was dying in which to buy spices. Women think of these things.

Mar 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.

The did not buy them on Saturday night, the shops were still closed and would not open until morning.

No they bought them on a Friday. By the way shops were open on ceremonial Sabbaths for the purposes of the Feast.

Luk 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

See they bought the spices on the Friday and prepared them

Now they rest according to the Commandment; the fourth Commandment. They rested on the weekly Sabbath.

But if there was a spare Friday they would have anointed His body on the Friday. There was nothing to stop them doing that.

Now we come to the timing of the resurrection…

Mat 16:21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Raised ON the third day.

yes the third day is not literally after three days and three nights. it is today, tomorrow, and the day after.

Mar 14:58 We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.

WITHIN three days.

yes within today, tomorrow and the next day.

Mar 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

AFTER three days.

yes on the third day, the day after tomorrow.

There is only one span of time that will allow all three statements to be true. At the end of the third day exactly. Just as Christ said in Mat 12:40 three days and three nights later. We read in John 11:9 that there are 12 hours in the day and 12 hours in the night. So we put all of the scriptures together and we determine that Christ was in the tomb 72 hours, three days and three nights EXACTLY as He said He would be.

But that is not what three days and three nights meant to a Jew. It simply meant a part of a day, a day, and part of a day. So you have nothing to worry about. And as I have pointed out your argument fails because the women would want to anoint Him as soon as possible. They would not wait three days.

Three days and three nights, 72 hours after being entombed just before sunset requires a resurrection just before sunset. From just before Wednesday sunset we add three days and three nights and come to Saturday afternoon just before sunset.

But as I have shown you the basis of your argument is false.

It really does matter, if Christ did not do what He said He would do, He failed to fulfill the ONLY sign He said He would give and to compound the problem, He would have lied.

No He would have used Jewish methods of calculation. No problem at all. So He fulfilled it after all. Sighs with relief.

He told the truth and was resurrected three days and three nights after entombment EXACTLY as He said He would be.

Not unless the women were grossly negligent.

 

[valiant]

Uh, why do you say that? I keep the Sabbath from sunset to sunset 2000 years after this. Why do you believe that they did not keep the Sabbath as they should have?

it was the first day of the week so sabbath practise was not in mind you keep an unnatural day in terms of general practise, one only kept by Jews. Christians did not change their timetables when they became so.

As far as no one knows which day is the Sabbath half way around the world, that is an interesting thought. Your employer tells you that you have Saturday off and you tell him, I don't have any idea what day that is. The first thing he should do is fire you if you don't even know what day of the week it is.

lol if i tried to fit my days into jewish timing in Palestine he WOULD sack me. when the date line is moved saturdays become sundays in some parts of the world. should they keep the old saturday or the new one?

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Notice that He said until ALL is fulfilled, show me where this is fulfilled...

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

John 19:30
king james version(kjv)

30.)When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

I'm not real sure what you are saying in these verses but it sounds like you are saying that JESUS did not lead captivity captive yet.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

Do we need to keep the sabbath? I dunno if I posted about this but I am still confused.

Matthew 5:19 says that if you ignore the least of these commands you get the least position in heaven. So can someone please explain this to me?

btw, what is the purpose of the Sabbath and why is it so hard to keep?

Jesus said...


Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

But there is a problem...

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

And the problem is not with God or His Commandments.

Would you agree that no man could keep the ten commandments they could only try and trying without keeping the law perfectly would not be acceptable to GOD.

Only JESUS was able to keep the law perfectly and after he died on the cross and rose again before he left earth he graced salvation to anyone who would believe in the WORD of GOD and we have access to this grace through FAITH.

So what i am saying is that a person under law or grace would have to have faith in the WORD of GOD

 

[seed_time_harvest]

I just wanted to say that the old covenant/law is least and the new covenant/grace is greater and the only way to make it in to heaven is by grace through faith.

remember scripture must interpret scripture or something is wrong.

 

[KohenMatt]

I just wanted to say that the old covenant/law is least and the new covenant/grace is greater and the only way to make it in to heaven is by grace through faith.

remember scripture must interpret scripture or something is wrong.

As usual, I don't think anyone here is advocating keeping the Law or salvation's sake. I follow the law, yet don't trust in it for my salvation.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

As usual, I don't think anyone here is advocating keeping the Law or salvation's sake. I follow the law, yet don't trust in it for my salvation.

Hello KohenMatt

I follow the law

law or grace.
not law and grace.

it should be -do all the law until you realize you need help and accept grace and when you accept grace then realize that it is all GOD.

 

[valiant]

This one has been done to death so I will approach it from another angle…

Don’t let anyone judge you for being black or Hispanic or red or any other race.Now what happened to the person?Did they immediately change race?That is what you are saying when you misread this verse.The verse says…

Col 2:16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Don’t let anyone judge you FOR DOING these things does away with them?

you can always tell when someone's argument is weak. They ADD words to the Scriptures. It says NOTHING about 'for doing these things'. The point was that they were not to be judged for NOT doing them. Are you also going to encourage worshiping of angels?

Paul clearly states that no one is to judge us for not observing new moon and sabbaths, the regular monthly and weekly Jewish times of observance.

If you want to observe the Sabbath per the Old Testament (staying at home all the Sabbath and doing nothing) by all means do so. But don't try to force Scriptures to try to make young Christians feel guilty..

So, are you saying that this verse is false?What it says is that when we break the Law, we are guilty of all and need the sacrifice of Christ.We need Grace but the understanding of this passage comes from reading all of it…

Therefore all the Law can do is condemn us. if we live by the Law we don't stand a chance. By all means use it as a mirror. But don't use it to condemn other Christians.

Jas 2:8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
Jas 2:9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
Jas 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Jas 2:11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
Jas 2:12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
Jas 2:13For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Heve you noticed that when both Jesus and James list the commandments they do not mention the commandment concerning the Sabbath? I wonder why not? It is pointedly absent. I wonder why?

So if you respect persons and mistreat some and treat others well, you are just as guilty as one who commits murder or adultery.You have broken the second Great Command.Where in this passage do you see the Law done away?It says if you break one you are guilty of all.How does that do away with the Law?What it does is emphasize our need to strive to obey and our need for grace.

It certainly does away with it as something to be judged by. It is saying follow the Law and you have no hope.

Let me give you a piece of advice, if your Bible says…

Exo 20:10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Jews: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Not the Jews who did not exist as a people then. It was a covenant with the children of Israel. It referred to them.

Or

Lev 23:2Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Jews, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are the Jews’ feasts.

whose feasts were they then? No one else knew of them.

Lev 23:3Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Jews in all your dwellings.

Moses wouldn't have known who the Jews were lol. But it was certainly the Sabbath of Israel. How else could it be a sign to the world?

Return it and get your money back, it contains misprints.

You mean like the one above about Col 2.16? LOL



Answered this already and you forget this…

Mar 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:
Mar 2:28Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

yes in the days when slaves had no rights, it gave them rights, but only in Israel. It prevented 'overworking' those who had no clout. It was for man's benefit. But the Son of Man could change it as He willed. And He NOWHERE specifically comanded obedience to it EVEN WHEN HE LISTED THE COMMANDMENTS.

Yes, I went to a lot of trouble to show you the truth of the Sabbath.

It was the day God set apart at creation, it is in force now and will be in the Millennium.What you do with this information is up to you.

NO DOUBT YOU CAN PROVIDE NEW TESTAMENT SCRIPTURES THAT say so?

 

[valiant]

Would you agree that no man could keep the ten commandments they could only try and trying without keeping the law perfectly would not be acceptable to GOD.

Only JESUS was able to keep the law perfectly and after he died on the cross and rose again before he left earth he graced salvation to anyone who would believe in the WORD of GOD and we have access to this grace through FAITH.

JESUS never 'graced salvation' to anyone. He offered to act in grace (unmerited love) to save them.

Grace is not a bank account on which we can draw. suppose your girl friend said 'i have put my love in a bank accounts so you can draw on it'. would you consider that a relationship? Grace is GOD ACTING IN UNMERITED LOVE. I do not look to 'grace' to save me. That is RC doctrine. I look to God in His grace.

When the Bible says, 'by grace you have been saved through faith' it does not mean 'you have drawn grace out of God's bank'. It means you have experienced God acting in grace towards you personally saving you.

 

[seed_time_harvest]

JESUS never 'graced salvation' to anyone. He offered to act in grace (unmerited love) to save them.

Grace is not a bank account on which we can draw. suppose your girl friend said 'i have put my love in a bank accounts so you can draw on it'. would you consider that a relationship? Grace is GOD ACTING IN UNMERITED LOVE. I do not look to 'grace' to save me. That is RC doctrine. I look to God in His grace.

When the Bible says, 'by grace you have been saved through faith' it does not mean 'you have drawn grace out of God's bank'. It means you have experienced God acting in grace towards you personally saving you.

I see that you were quick on the draw and it seems you left out the part about "to them that would believe"
salvation is just one of the things we recieve by grace but if you feel better about it you can take the salvation part out of that post and just say GOD gave/gives us grace.

 

[valiant]

I see that you were quick on the draw and it seems you left out the part about "to them that would believe"
salvation is just one of the things we recieve by grace but if you feel better about it you can take the salvation part out of that post and just say GOD gave/gives us grace.

you have missed the point entirely. you were speaking as though God despatched something called grace to us in order for ue to be saved.. That is not it at all. God 'acts in grace towards us'. HE saves us, not by 'giving us grace' (although He does that through the fruit of the Spirit) but by acting in unmerited love and Himself first justifying us and then working on us and fashioning our lives It is His work DIRECTLY, not by some deposit of something called 'grace'. In salvation He does not 'give us grace', but rather in unmerited favor He pulls us out of the mire of sin, washes us down, and lives through us His life of righteousness.

Incidentally I did mention faith, but you were too busy to notice.

 

[gotime]

Again it is important to look at what it means to be under law and under Grace and what the results are. cause many use these terms with little to no real contextual or spiritual understanding of how they are used.

 

[JFSurvivor]

JFSurvivor,

I'm just curious...
What denomination are you currently involved in, and what is their view on this topic?

I don't really belong to a denomination. (sorry I just saw your post. It was hiding from me. lol)

 

[mailmandan]

You have no evidence at all that it was on a Wednesday. It was in fact on the 'day of preparation' which was a Friday. See, it was on Friday the preparation for the Sabbath.

Amen! Plain and simple. Good posts! Maybe you will have better luck getting through to John832.