Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)

[Sophia]

Ephesians 1:1 - 4:16 clears up most of the errors that people have regarding salvational issues.
The rest of Ephesians clears up most of the errors that people have in Christian living.

For anyone struggling with the security of their salvation,
or struggling with defining/overcoming sin,
a dose of Ephesians is a good prescription.

 

[MarcR]

In a sense.
Many people use them interchangeably.

Eternal Security deals with our salvation being secured:
by the Sacrifice(death) and Victory(Resurrection) of Christ,
through the sealing of the Holy Spirit,
in accordance to the Election of the Father.

OSAS is more dealing with the "perseverance of the saints", that all those who truly believe cannot fall from the state of Salvation.

OSAS is less accurate, so I don't use the phrase. There are such things as apostates, which some forms of OSAS deny. Eternal Security accurately proclaims the position that Believers have in Christ.

There are such things as apostates, which some forms of OSAS deny. Eternal Security accurately proclaims the position that Believers have in Christ

It seems that, for various reasons, any believer can potentially fall into apostacy. When such a thing occurs, we may loose the joy of God's Salvation; and bring chastisement upon ourselves; but we NEVER loose our Salvation.

Ps 51:12
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
KJV
The Joy of Salvation may be lost but NOT Salvation.

 

[Sophia]

There are such things as apostates, which some forms of OSAS deny. Eternal Security accurately proclaims the position that Believers have in Christ

It seems that, for various reasons, any believer can potentially fall into apostacy. When such a thing occurs, we may loose the joy of God's Salvation; and bring chastisement upon ourselves; but we NEVER loose our Salvation.

Ps 51:12
12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
KJV
The Joy of Salvation may be lost but NOT Salvation.

Agreed,
but I still feel eternal security more accurately describes the relationship, and is less prone to being misused and/or misunderstood.

Enemies of God's Soveriegnty intentionally misapply the phrase OSAS,
and enemies of God's Holy Call to Believers also go and claim salvation and always salvation, without having any foundation in it.

There are those who spit upon Grace: claiming new birth and new life eternal, yet not ever even tasting; proclaiming faith, yet displaying faithlessness; announcing their salvation, but never believing a word of it, shown by their unrepentant hearts, through their deeds.

Then there are those who want to earn Grace: shouting that the unearning are hellbound liars who claim what is not theirs to claim; praising the loud speaking pious preacher, while condemning the downtrodden; distorting the Word to weigh down the consciences of the weak-willed.


I am unearning. I do hold claim to a promise that I never earned or merited. But it is mine to claim in Christ; and it is my life's mission to fulfill the Call given unto me.
Yes, I hold to OSAS, but what I proclaim to the downtrodden is not that they go on sinning,
but that they accept the eternal security that Christ offers, and the Victory that He has promised to us in all things,
to overcome self and sin... and even death itself.

 

[Sophia]

I should reclarify, because I touched on too many topics in the last post.

I refrain from the phrase OSAS because some take it to mean that:
upon believing, a person has already gained all there is to gain in Christ, and nothing more is of any benefit (and is even a negative thing),
so they can now go on living the same, but having claim to all eternal benefit.

That is a misrepresentation of the Gospel which brings new life.
Generally, the people who take the phrase OSAS that way are those who hold to Arminianism, and are just twisting the doctrine to discredit the Sovereignty of God.

There are others who do use OSAS as an excuse to not work for the Kingdom. I call them "cultural Christians", because all Faith is to them is a culture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen and the Lord said there is none good no not one as well.....and again he denies that God's use of chastisement is not a deterrent for believers to keep them in line.....totally rejects the view of God on chastisement and in essence is calling God's ways not sufficient

Originally Posted by Jason0047

No, that doesn't make any sense. People do evil all the time and live perfectly good lives. Believers are persecuted to the point of death. Chastisement is not really that big of a deterrent for believers who think they can get away with sin. For unbelievers suffer the same challenges in this life. So no. I am not buying it.

all I can figure is he was never punished by his parents. in any strong way. so he easily laughed it off and did what he wanted

for those of us who's parents did not spare the rod, we know what chastening does. and that is from human parents.

he obviously does not think much of God, that he thinks people can withstand the chastening of God.

 

[Utah]

Eternal Security deals with our salvation being secured:
by the Sacrifice(death) and Victory(Resurrection) of Christ,
through the sealing of the Holy Spirit

I like this; it accurately describes my belief and why I rejoice as I do.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I like this; it accurately describes my belief and why I rejoice as I do.

Titus 1:2
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

one who does not HAVE eternal life, HAS no hope. only fear, which causes them to act the way we see legalists act in here, you get that way when the only hope you have is in yourself. you have to keep puffing yourself up and tearing others down, or you would have a nervose breakdown.

 

[Utah]

Titus 1:2
in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began,

one who does not HAVE eternal life, HAS no hope. only fear, which causes them to act the way we see legalists act in here, you get that way when the only hope you have is in yourself. you have to keep puffing yourself up and tearing others down, or you would have a nervose breakdown.

Amen, Brother. Though I have always loved the Lord, there was a time I walked in fear because I did not understand the glorious magnitude of God's grace. Then two things happened:

First, my pastor told me in a loving and gentle manner that I am loved because I am not perfect, because if I was perfect, I'd be pretty hard to get along with. This broke the ice. Then shortly afterwards I read John 14 and my life was changed forevermore.

Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

 

[SeaBass]

8.If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth isnot in us. 9. Ifwe confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.10. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and hisword is not in us. (1 John 1:8-10)

So if confess our sins, and not fight for them, like people's do today,then our Lord will clean us for our sins,.....

So if the Christian does not confess his sins, will the Lord still cleanse that Christian's sins anyway?

 

[Jason0047]

9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

So what did the one that has admitted that is a sinner has done? The other is in denial.

You are missing the point. According to OSAS proponents (Not all of them but many of them), they will say that you don't have to cry out to God to have mercy on their lives. All you need is a "belief" on Jesus and that is it. How you love God and love others plays no factor into the mix of one's right standing with God. The fruits of righteousness do not need to bear fruit in a believer's life according to many (Not all) OSAS proponents. Granted, I do not believe in "Works Salvationism." I believe God does the work in the believer once they have been truly saved and they are abiding in God (Who is the source of their salvation). The majority who voted in my poll here at CC, had expressed their belief that you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105849-can-you-out-fellowship-god-still-saved.html

This implies a doctrine of immorality. That God will save a person and take them home to Heaven even when they are being evil up until the point of their deaths. For many here believe that a believer can commit sin, then die, and still be saved. They believe physical death (and not spiritual death) is the result of committing a sin (Like with Ananias and Sapphira). But if God wanted to save Ananais and Sapphira and their hearts were right with God, then why didn't the Lord allow them time to repent? What kind of message does that send when He kills a person for doing evil? Do you really expect me to believe they were saved? I mean, if you seen someone struck down by some super natural means, are you going to think Judgment or salvation? Was their ever a point in the Bible where God did this before? I don't so.

Anyways, I brought up Luke 18:9-14 because what it clearly illustrates is two pictures of a type of believer we can see today.

Picture #1 = Believer who cries out to God to have mercy on him (Which lines up with confessing sin, 1 John 1:9, and the Lord's prayer).

Piciture #2 - False Believer who thinks they are God's righteous child and does not love another.

Picture #1 describes the believer who humbles themselves down before God to have mercy on them and their sins. Their cry out to God is not an excuse for them to continue in sin, but it is a cry to God so as to help them to stop so they can walk in His good ways. This is the true believer today who has a proper understanding on 1 John 1:9. They believe confessing and admitting before God that they need His grace and forgiveness.

Picture #2 describes the false believer who does not need to go to God to be forgiven. He is God's righteous child and he is saved no matter what. But the Pharisee's fruit within his life shows otherwise because he does not love another. He is proud and beats his chest and thinks he is better than the Tax Collector and thanks God for saying he is glad he is not like that Tax Collector.

So we can see that if you were to compare both pictures side by side and try to line them up next to the OSAS proponent who believes they can sin and still be saved versus the believer who believes they have to cry out to God for forgiveness, then we can easily conclude that the OSAS sin and still saved belief is false.

 

[Jason0047]

You are missing the point. According to OSAS proponents (Not all of them but many of them), they will say that you don't have to cry out to God to have mercy on their lives. All you need is a "belief" on Jesus and that is it. How you love God and love others plays no factor into the mix of one's right standing with God. The fruits of righteousness do not need to bear fruit in a believer's life according to many (Not all) OSAS proponents. Granted, I do not believe in "Works Salvationism." I believe God does the work in the believer once they have been truly saved and they are abiding in God (Who is the source of their salvation). The majority who voted in my poll here at CC, had expressed their belief that you can be out of fellowship with God and still be saved.

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105849-can-you-out-fellowship-god-still-saved.html

This implies a doctrine of immorality. That God will save a person and take them home to Heaven even when they are being evil up until the point of their deaths. For many here believe that a believer can commit sin, then die, and still be saved. They believe physical death (and not spiritual death) is the result of committing a sin (Like with Ananias and Sapphira). But if God wanted to save Ananais and Sapphira and their hearts were right with God, then why didn't the Lord allow them time to repent? What kind of message does that send when He kills a person for doing evil? Do you really expect me to believe they were saved? I mean, if you seen someone struck down by some super natural means, are you going to think Judgment or salvation? Was their ever a point in the Bible where God did this before? I don't so.

Anyways, I brought up Luke 18:9-14 because what it clearly illustrates is two pictures of a type of believer we can see today.

Picture #1 = Believer who cries out to God to have mercy on him (Which lines up with confessing sin, 1 John 1:9, and the Lord's prayer).

Piciture #2 - False Believer who thinks they are God's righteous child and does not love another.

Picture #1 describes the believer who humbles themselves down before God to have mercy on them and their sins. Their cry out to God is not an excuse for them to continue in sin, but it is a cry to God so as to help them to stop so they can walk in His good ways. This is the true believer today who has a proper understanding on 1 John 1:9. They believe confessing and admitting before God that they need His grace and forgiveness.

Picture #2 describes the false believer who does not need to go to God to be forgiven. He is God's righteous child and he is saved no matter what. But the Pharisee's fruit within his life shows otherwise because he does not love another. He is proud and beats his chest and thinks he is better than the Tax Collector and thanks God for saying he is glad he is not like that Tax Collector.

So we can see that if you were to compare both pictures side by side and try to line them up next to the OSAS proponent who believes they can sin and still be saved versus the believer who believes they have to cry out to God for forgiveness, then we can easily conclude that the OSAS sin and still saved belief is false.

Edit:

Try to edit it out, beating of the chest was an expression by the Tax Collector. I caught that after I wrote it. The point I was getting at is that there are two kinds of beating of one's chest, just as their are two kinds of sorrows. There is a Godly sorrow and there is a worldly sorrow. Just as their is a Godly way to beat one's chest and their is a prideful or worldly way in doing so.

 

[Jason0047]

The High priest represent the Father, but now we has only one Father, the rest were shadows of the ones that are in Heaven. But we doesn't have to tell God what we has done, because he has already known, even before Jeremiah was in the womb.

No, God the Father was the one in whom we transgressed against. Jesus (Who is the Son of God, the Eternal Word who was made flesh) is our mediator or high priest who is able to make things right with God the Father and mankind (Which would be us).

 

[Jason0047]

its ok for them to excuse sin as a "mistake" I guess it makes them more holy, then we who understand, sin just makes us wretched men and women. and if not for Christ, we would suffer our righteous judgment.

So when David cried out to God to have mercy on him (because of his sin), he was in the wrong? Is everyone who confesses their sin to God in the wrong? The Tax Collector cried out to God to have mercy on him. Was he in the wrong? It sure sounded like he had certain sins in his mind. For if he didn't have sin in his mind, then why was he crying out to God? Do you see how silly your argument is. You believe he was just generally admitting he was a sinner. Nobody does that. If a believer sins, they are going to be convicted by the Spirit to repent of that sin. Sometimes a believer will mention the sin and other times they will think of the sin while they use words that simply express a general cry for forgiveness. It doesn't make any sense to cry out to God to have mercy on them in being a sinner in general if there is no sin to redeem. What you believe doesn't make any sense. If my future sin is forgiven (According to OSAS), then there is no need to cry out to God EVER.

 

[Jason0047]

its ok for them to excuse sin as a "mistake" I guess it makes them more holy, then we who understand, sin just makes us wretched men and women. and if not for Christ, we would suffer our righteous judgment.

A true believer will be characterized as walking uprightly in the Lord. If they stumble, they get back up and they don't stay down in the mud. So you believe the better option is to stay down in the mud and just admit you are a sinner instead of getting clean thru Jesus (By confessing your sin) and striving to walk in His good ways? If that is what you are saying, then you have things backwards.

 

[Jason0047]

Conditional Life is dependant upon abiding in the One who is Life itself. For you cannot be out of fellowship with Christ (Because of sin) and still be saved. For he that has the Son has life, and he that does not have the Son, does not have life (1 John 5:12). This promotes holiness and right living. Eternal Security is the polar oppsite of this teaching and it does not promote holiness and right living. Yes, I am aware of a version of OSAS that teaches holiness. But this is a minority view within the OSAS camp.

 

[Jason0047]

My heart and mind are renewed by the Holy Spirit, by the Bible, changing my desires. I want to please God, not myself, I want to love others, not myself, i want to be like Jesus, not myself.

I thank God daily for Jesus and what He did for me. You seem to think that I'm out at the bars every night picking up strange men, taking drugs, robbing banks, breaking legs, spending all the money on sports gambling and believe that something like that is okay.

Maybe you do not realize the depth of my gratitude to Him, that He is faithful when I am not and He will never forsake me, I would not spit on that love, I would not break His heart or dishonoring Him.

He knows my every flaw yet loves me still even if I forget to confess a sin because He knows my heart.

I want you to know that I do love you in Christ Jesus. I have no ill will towards you and only want you to realize what God's Word is plainly saying.

Anyways, getting back to the topic at hand: Do you believe it is important to follow God's instructions? I mean, could you imagine if Noah decided to not follow God's instructions to the letter? Could you imagine what might have happened?

You are saying you are good person. I have no doubt by the world's standards that you are. I was not implying that you were a drunk, or doing excessively evil things all the time. I was merely mentioning the sins that lead unto spiritual death that Paul lists. The Bible tells us that for us to get our hearts right with God if we do sin is that we go to Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). So our standard of goodness does not count. An unbeliever can live exactly like you do and still not be saved because they never accepted Christ. So there has to be a difference; And a very clear one at that. For God calls us to be holy as he is holy. We are to be separate from the world. In fact, many unbelievers will say that they are a "good person", too. In fact, many unbelievers (Who have not accepted Christ) will say the same to you. They believe they live good and God knows their bad and that He forgives them anyways (Because their bad is not all that bad). But see, one sin can keep a person out of Heaven or break fellowship with God. For it only took one sin for all of mankind to fall into sin and death (Which was by Adam and Eve). The apostle John tells us to sin not, but if we do sin we have an advocate we can go to named Jesus Christ (1 John 2:1). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9).

In other words, what do you make of 1 John 1:9?

For how does that verse make sense to you?

To put it to you another way, please explain every word of that verse to me and give me a complete commentary (Using other verses to support your belief).

 

[Jason0047]

Good points. Is John focusing on confessing every single sin that we commit as we commit them as an additional requirement to remain cleansed? Or does John have in mind here a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness? We would continue to confess our sins then. Notice that verse 8 says, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." Verse 10 says, "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." IN CONTRAST TO - if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If every time a believer commits a sin are they not fully cleansed until they confess that specific sin? Are they lost again until they confess that specific sin? What happens if they forget one?

No. This is not true. The apostle John tell us to sin not in 1 John 2:1. He also says in 1 John 2:1 that if we do sin (singular), that we have an advocate that we can go to named Jesus Christ. 1 John 1:9 is the instructions of what we are supposed to do in detail that takes place before 1 John 2:1. For it only took one sin for Adam and Eve to break fellowship with God. What makes you think that has changed?

 

[Jason0047]

that does not make any sense.

According to the standard God placed in effect. There are non righteous, no not one. You can not live up to the law. You need to stop trying to compair yourself to other people. and compair yourself to Gods standard.

According to Gods standard. you fail to live up. thus your evil in Gods eyes.

Then again, Like I stated earlier. You refuse to be the tax collector. and would rather be the pharisee. You just proved my point.

Uh, no. Any time a believer sins in the past (Since being a believer) they will have in effect cried out to God to have mercy on them. This is what many (Not all) OSAS proponents fail to do because they have a sin and still be saved mentality like the Pharisee. Also, Jesus telling us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect would not make any sense if Romans 3 is saying that all believers will never be able to stop sinning (those types of sins that lead unto spiritual death: like murder, hate, lusting, lying, stealing, etc.). In other words, Romans 3:23 is not saying that no person can ever walk holy in God's ways. If that was the case, then how could God give praise to the men of God through out the Bible for living righteously? Romans 3:23 is saying that all people need a Savior so as to be cleansed of their old life of sin. They need to be born again spiritually. It is not saying one will continue to be a sinner. For if that was true then you would also have to conclude that nobody is seeking God still (Even though that is what Christians do). You will also have to conclude that God's people also do not have no understanding, as well (See Romans 3:11). So the context in view of all have sinned and have come short of the glory of God is simply saying alll of humanity has sinned and needs a Savior whereby they need to repent of their sins and allow the Lord to work His righteousness thru them.

 

[dcontroversal]

. He also says in 1 John 2:1 that if we do sin (singular), QUOTE]

You use of (singular) contradicts the use of the word as it can be both plural and singular......

He died unto SIN once<---->He became SIN for us<---->He took our SINS upon HIM, the SINS of the whole world........!

 

[Jason0047]

Impossible. God saved a believer when they were his enemy, At their worse. No one could go back to being the same or worse than they were before they were saved. Not to mention. The HS chastening a believer would not allow it.

Not to mention. John said those born of God can not sin

Again, your pride refuses to allow you to see this. Thats your downfall.

Well, Romans 5:8 has to be read in context. God died for us while we were yet sinners to demonstrate his love to us, but he did not do so that we can continue in sin. How so? Romans 6:1 says,

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein"

​

Also, when you read 1 John 3;9, that says he that is born of God does not sin. This is not talking about how when you sin; You sin in the flesh but yet you don't in the spirit (Because Jesus' sacrifice has cleansed you of all sin). The context in 1 John 3 refutes that type of false belief (If that is what you believe). For 1 John 3:10 says,

"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."