There are not only those who have apostatized (i.e. those hwo have rejected Jesus after having a saving faith in Him), but there are those who have backslidden in the Lord because of sin (And they need to repent of it and renew their faith in the Lord so as to be saved again). However, those who reject Jesus after having walked with Him (By the Holy Spirit) will not be forgiven, though. Yes, Peter denied the Lord, but he did not have the Holy Spirit yet.
Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)
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Romans 3:10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." Romans 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Descriptive of believers? 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus. Is Paul saying that believers don't seek after God and don't understand His ways or unbelievers?
Verse 9 if we confess our sins is IN CONTRAST TO if we say we have no sin (vs. 8) and if we say we have not sinned (vs. 10). This is ongoing and not a one time temporary event.
Christ is man's Advocate with the Father. Our sin debt was paid in full by Christ. 1 John 2:1 doesn't say anything about confessing each specific sin that we commit as we commit them to Christ or else he holds back cleansing until we do.
If Joe is a genuine believer then why would he refuse to admit this sin before the Lord? For Joe to continue stealing with no remorse, no repentance, no confession just bring it on is practicing sin and no one who is born of God practices sin (1 John 3:9).
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Does that sound like a believer to you?
You need to read verse 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6-7 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (compare with 1 John 3:10 - does not practice righteousness). But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of lightLost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
1 John 2:9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. Compare with 1 John 3:10. Child of God or child of the devil?
Verse 9 if we confess our sins is IN CONTRAST TO if we say we have no sin (vs. 8) and if we say we have not sinned (vs. 10). This is ongoing and not a one time temporary event.
Christ is man's Advocate with the Father. Our sin debt was paid in full by Christ. 1 John 2:1 doesn't say anything about confessing each specific sin that we commit as we commit them to Christ or else he holds back cleansing until we do.
If Joe is a genuine believer then why would he refuse to admit this sin before the Lord? For Joe to continue stealing with no remorse, no repentance, no confession just bring it on is practicing sin and no one who is born of God practices sin (1 John 3:9).
If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. Does that sound like a believer to you?
You need to read verse 6 and 7 together. 1 John 1:6-7 - IF we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. (compare with 1 John 3:10 - does not practice righteousness). But IF we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. Walking in darkness is descriptive of lost unbelievers. Walking in the light is descriptive of saved believers. Only saved believers are in the light. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of lightLost unbelievers walk in darkness, not in the light. Genuine saved believers walk in the light, not in darkness. IF confirms these positions in verses 6 and 7. It's one or the other.
1 John 2:9 He who says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. 10 He who loves his brother abides in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in him. 11 But he who hates his brother is in darkness and walks in darkness, and does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. Compare with 1 John 3:10. Child of God or child of the devil?
That is just silly. If we are talking about "all believers" here then it would disqualify himself from not knowing anything or in him not seeking after God (See verse 11 agaIn). Paul is talking about how all of humanity has sinned at one point in time in their lives. Paul is not talking about those who have currently changed or been converted whereby they walk uprightly with God and who do not sin as a way of life. If he was, then he would be contradicting himself.
Yes, 1 John 1:8 is in context to 1 John 1:9, but not in the way you interpret it, though. 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present moment and can include one sin and or many sins. Joe could have one sin in his life and then make the claim his sin does not exist because it is redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ by his belief alone. But that is not the entire context of 1st John. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light is when the blood cleanses us. It is not in a belief alone. It is walking in God's good ways (Which is the natural result of one having been saved when they repented of their sins and accepted Jesus).
It's basic English. You don't want it to say that so you ignore the plain straight forward meaning of what it says. Let me illustrate. If Jack told his wife to stop cooking food with onions in it. What does that mean to you? It means stop cooking food with onions in it. A one time action on behalf of Jack's wife. John then says if you do sin. This means, that if Jack's wife does cook food with onions in it (a one time action), and she knows it could get Jack sick and almost die, then she can go to God's grace and be forgiven of it. Why would she ignore in holding onto doing something evil? What you propose doesn't make sense and it allows for immorality and sin to fester like a cancer.
Now, you are changing your tune. You are saying exactly what I just said. No sin should stand between a person and God. Not even one. For how many sins did it take for Adam and Eve to be separated from God?
Uh, yes. 1 John 2:9 actually proves my case and not yours. 1 John 2:9 is the sin of hate. Just one sin. Not many sins. Hating your brother is just one sin. One sin. Not many. If a brother hates another brother (one sin and not many), then they are in darknesss. Darkness here is in reference to how they are not saved. We know this because 1 John 3 says if any man hates his brother he is a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them.
Yes, 1 John 1:8 is in context to 1 John 1:9, but not in the way you interpret it, though. 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present moment and can include one sin and or many sins. Joe could have one sin in his life and then make the claim his sin does not exist because it is redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ by his belief alone. But that is not the entire context of 1st John. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light is when the blood cleanses us. It is not in a belief alone. It is walking in God's good ways (Which is the natural result of one having been saved when they repented of their sins and accepted Jesus).
It's basic English. You don't want it to say that so you ignore the plain straight forward meaning of what it says. Let me illustrate. If Jack told his wife to stop cooking food with onions in it. What does that mean to you? It means stop cooking food with onions in it. A one time action on behalf of Jack's wife. John then says if you do sin. This means, that if Jack's wife does cook food with onions in it (a one time action), and she knows it could get Jack sick and almost die, then she can go to God's grace and be forgiven of it. Why would she ignore in holding onto doing something evil? What you propose doesn't make sense and it allows for immorality and sin to fester like a cancer.
Now, you are changing your tune. You are saying exactly what I just said. No sin should stand between a person and God. Not even one. For how many sins did it take for Adam and Eve to be separated from God?
Uh, yes. 1 John 2:9 actually proves my case and not yours. 1 John 2:9 is the sin of hate. Just one sin. Not many sins. Hating your brother is just one sin. One sin. Not many. If a brother hates another brother (one sin and not many), then they are in darknesss. Darkness here is in reference to how they are not saved. We know this because 1 John 3 says if any man hates his brother he is a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them.
But you can't stop reading at Ephesians 4, though. Ephesians 5 refutes the thinking that a believer can abide in sin and still be saved, though.
See Ephesians 5:3-7.
Ephesians 5 KJV
See Ephesians 5:3-7.
Ephesians 5 KJV
Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.
#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.
#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).
#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).
#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.
#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.
#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.
#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).
#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.
#4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).
#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.
#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.
#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.
Okay, we are becoming more in agreement here. Granted, I would not even use the phrase "Eternal Security" either because it is associated with "Once Saved Always Saved" by many. I believe we can have an assurance of our salvation in Christ. However, that does not mean we don't have free will, though. A person will either employ 1 John 1:9 in their life (According to God's Word), or they will go solo and seek forgiveness some other way (Based on the teachings of men).
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Do you not realize that what you said here is just flat out hateful, untrue, and wrong?
You know nothing about my life and you are making wrong guesses as to something that is evil that does not exist.
For Jesus said, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man"
Also, I am not against the chastening of parents correcting their children. I am also not against the concept of chastisement for the believer, either. So what you say here is just not true (And neither is it Christ like or loving).
You know nothing about my life and you are making wrong guesses as to something that is evil that does not exist.
For Jesus said, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man"
Also, I am not against the chastening of parents correcting their children. I am also not against the concept of chastisement for the believer, either. So what you say here is just not true (And neither is it Christ like or loving).
Uh, tearing others down? Is that not what you just did in your previous post to me?
Also, I am not promoting Works Salvationism or in Earning Salvation. We are saved by God's grace when we repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior; And once we accept Christ, we walk with Him (Which results in good fruit and not bad fruit). For Salvation is a relationship (1 John 5:12). It is not in what you do (on your own merits alone). But God's grace is not a license for a believer to get away with sin, though either (See Romans 6:1).
Also, I am not promoting Works Salvationism or in Earning Salvation. We are saved by God's grace when we repent and accept Jesus Christ as our Savior; And once we accept Christ, we walk with Him (Which results in good fruit and not bad fruit). For Salvation is a relationship (1 John 5:12). It is not in what you do (on your own merits alone). But God's grace is not a license for a believer to get away with sin, though either (See Romans 6:1).
But the Bible cannot be isolated to the passage here above in John 14, though. Scripture has to be compared with other Scripture. Do a study on the "fear of the Lord" in the Bible. Go to blueletterbible.org and do a search on the word "fear." When you are done doing the study, then ask yourself if you should fear God or not (In regards to sin a believer's life). For when was sin ever acceptable to God concerning His people? Would not God be condoning sin by allowing His people to get away with it? In other words, would not a parent be bad for letting their child to get away with in doing evil things? Is not God our ultimate Father or parent?
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Wow.
That's really negative Blue.
Jesus would never say ANYTHING negative
(except when talking about hell, or end times, or pharisees, or hypocrites, or scribes, or money lenders, or the unrepentant, or false prophets, or satan, or liars, or adulterers etc. etc. etc.)
CLEARLY you need to rethink your words...
maybe you need deliverance?
: )
That's really negative Blue.
Jesus would never say ANYTHING negative
(except when talking about hell, or end times, or pharisees, or hypocrites, or scribes, or money lenders, or the unrepentant, or false prophets, or satan, or liars, or adulterers etc. etc. etc.)
CLEARLY you need to rethink your words...
maybe you need deliverance?
: )
While I am not sure where he is coming from entirely. He did appear to agree with me when I replied on how others deny in confessing their sins. So I don't think he believes in a sin and still be saved type doctrine.
Side Note:
Oh, and while we believe in confessing sins as being necessary for salvation, I do not agree with you that Works saves us or that we have to earn our salvation. Salvation is a free gift that is given to us by God's grace thru faith. It is not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
Side Note:
Oh, and while we believe in confessing sins as being necessary for salvation, I do not agree with you that Works saves us or that we have to earn our salvation. Salvation is a free gift that is given to us by God's grace thru faith. It is not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).
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No, that is not what everyone here is saying. If you were to carefully read thru what everyone is saying they believe they can be out of fellowship with Christ (God), which implies they can abide in sin and still be saved. For most here at CC have already voted that you can be out of fellowship with the Lord and still be saved.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105849-can-you-out-fellowship-god-still-saved.html
Confession of sin is the only thing whereby they can get their heart right with the Lord (1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). For a believer can bring back a brother or sister who has erred from the truth and they can help for them to be converted again (i.e. to be renewed spiritually again by the Lord) whereby a multitude of their sins will be covered and their soul will be saved from death (i.e. spiritual death) (See James 5:19-20).
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105849-can-you-out-fellowship-god-still-saved.html
Confession of sin is the only thing whereby they can get their heart right with the Lord (1 John 2:1; 1 John 1:9). For a believer can bring back a brother or sister who has erred from the truth and they can help for them to be converted again (i.e. to be renewed spiritually again by the Lord) whereby a multitude of their sins will be covered and their soul will be saved from death (i.e. spiritual death) (See James 5:19-20).
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Jason, do you realize you post, you copy and paste and your rant, and no one cares?? No one reads all those long misinterpreted verses, and your blathering about the "types" of OSAS.
First, get this straight, NO ONE in this forum says you can be saved and go about sinning willfully. You may have seen this in some other forum, but this is THIS FORUM and NO ONE says it.
Do you notice how you NEVER get likes? It is because no one even bothers to read your long posts. There is a reason for that. It is because we have heard it all from you, and we have rejected your stance as unbiblical, and also on any level, very confused.
Sorry to have to be the one to inform you, but seriously dude! Try actually reading what we post, instead of posting 10 things in a row that no one bothers to read. Or, put another way, no one believes you, and your posts just convince us how wrong you are in your theology, and especially your soteriology!
First, get this straight, NO ONE in this forum says you can be saved and go about sinning willfully. You may have seen this in some other forum, but this is THIS FORUM and NO ONE says it.
Do you notice how you NEVER get likes? It is because no one even bothers to read your long posts. There is a reason for that. It is because we have heard it all from you, and we have rejected your stance as unbiblical, and also on any level, very confused.
Sorry to have to be the one to inform you, but seriously dude! Try actually reading what we post, instead of posting 10 things in a row that no one bothers to read. Or, put another way, no one believes you, and your posts just convince us how wrong you are in your theology, and especially your soteriology!