Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)

[Ukorin]

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works,which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

 

[Ukorin]

12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ,alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken downin his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself onenew man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father.19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[d] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[e] the Spirit.

 

[Ukorin]

11 This was according to the eternal purpose that he has realized in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 in whom we have boldness and access with confidence through our faith in him. 13 So I ask you not to lose heart over what I am suffering for you, which is your glory.

 

[Ukorin]

10 He who descended is the one who alsoascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.) 11 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds[c] and teachers,[d]12 to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood,[e] to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, 14 so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes. 15 Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are togrow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped,when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.

 

[Jason0047]

It's not about a single verse. It's the whole first 4 chapters that refute your view.

Hmmm.... It seems kind of strange that you only mentioned the first four chapters. Why is that? Well, if one were to keep reading, they would run into this passage,

"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
(Ephesians 5:3-7).

 

[Ukorin]

It's all about His Plan, and how we are a part of it through belief (faith) in Christ. Maturity and salvation are not the same thing. Condemnation and chastisement are not the same thing.

 

[Ukorin]

Hmmm.... It seems kind of strange that you only mentioned the first four chapters. Why is that? Well, if one were to keep reading, they would run into this passage,

"But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them."
(Ephesians 5:3-7).

And this is true. Thus you have to look at the first 4 to see how YOU yourself are not condemned.
How often do you talk foolishly, or jest?

 

[Jason0047]

And this is true. Thus you have to look at the first 4 to see how YOU yourself are not condemned.
How often do you talk foolishly, or jest?

How do you know how I talk? You don't. You are making an assumption. And even if I did, and it was wrong, then the Holy Spirit will convict me to repent of that sin and to forsake it. There is no excuse for sin. That is what Ephesians 5:3-7 is saying. Paul says, let no deceive you with vain words in regards to this topic. For none of those who commit those types of sins will have any inheritance in the Kingdom of God. That is why we are told by Paul to not be partakers with those who sin in such a way.

 

[Sophia]

Well, you probably are not intending to mock God's Word. But that is what you are doing, though. The Bible clearly says if we confess our sin he is faithful and just to forgive us our sin (1 John 1:9). If you choose not to believe that verse, that is up to you. But don't make fun of the Bible please.

The mockery of His Word is in placing the philosophy of free-will above the Sovereignty of God displayed in Scripture.

 

[Jason0047]

The mockery of His Word is in placing the philosophy of free-will above the Sovereignty of God displayed in Scripture.

Ah, so the cat is out of the bag. You believe in Calvinism which is at the very heart of the promotion of OSAS or Eternal Security (or I should say POTS, i.e. Perseverance of the Saints).

Anyways, if I have no free will to choose God or not, then it really doesn't matter what I do then. God just chooses some people to go to Heaven and other people to be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. There is no use in doing anything if there is no free will. I mean, if there was no free will then how could God judge us for doing evil at a Judgment (If it was God that made them to be evil)?

 

[MarcR]

Jason,

Eph 5:3-4 gives a list of nominative case nouns all derived from present active participles!

these nouns do not speak of occasional stumbling into these sins; but rather ones whose character is defined by these sins.

this distinction is taken further in verses 5-7 which distinguish the child of God from the child of disobedience.

A person saved by faith will never be characterized by these sins; but may on occasion commit them as David did with Bathsheba and Uriah.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason,

Eph 5:3-4 gives a list of nominative case nouns all derived from present active participles!

these nouns do not speak of occasional stumbling into these sins; but rather ones whose character is defined by these sins.

this distinction is taken further in verses 5-7 which distinguish the child of God from the child of disobedience.

A person saved by faith will never be characterized by these sins; but may on occasion commit them as David did with Bathsheba and Uriah.

But you are failing to mention the important lesson of what David did next, though. For we learn in Psalm 51 that Davd did in fact repent after he sinned. David did not let those sins remain as a cancer within his life. He took those sins to the Lord (Seeking His mercy) so as to be cleansed by Him. Therein lies the difference.

 

[mailmandan]

That is just silly. If we are talking about "all believers" here then it would disqualify himself from not knowing anything or in him not seeking after God (See verse 11 agaIn). Paul is talking about how all of humanity has sinned at one point in time in their lives. Paul is not talking about those who have currently changed or been converted whereby they walk uprightly with God and who do not sin as a way of life. If he was, then he would be contradicting himself.

Romans 3:10-12 applies to all of humanity prior to conversion. ALL of humanity has sinned and come short of the glory of God. I'm not saying that after conversion man continues to not seek after God, does not understand His ways and continues to practice sin.

Yes, 1 John 1:8 is in context to 1 John 1:9, but not in the way you interpret it, though. 1 John 1:8 is speaking in the present moment and can include one sin and or many sins. Joe could have one sin in his life and then make the claim his sin does not exist because it is redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ by his belief alone.

Not in the way that I interpret it? It's pretty clear. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. IN CONTRAST TO if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Belief in Christ is not alone in the sense that we believe, but we never repented and we say that we have no sin in contrast to confessing our sins. If we don't change our minds about our sinful position and confess our sins IN CONTRAST TO saying we have no sin (opposite of confessing our sins) then we won't believe the gospel. Believers confess their sins and acknowledge their complete dependence upon Christ to save them.

But that is not the entire context of 1st John. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light is when the blood cleanses us. It is not in a belief alone. It is walking in God's good ways (Which is the natural result of one having been saved when they repented of their sins and accepted Jesus).

"If we walk in the light" is descriptive of believers IN CONTRAST TO "walking in darkness" which are those who merely SAY they have fellowship with Him, but lie and do not practice the truth. Does the latter describe children of God or children of the devil? 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God. *Children of God walk in the light and practice the truth/righteousness. *Children of the devil walk in darkness and do not practice the truth/righteousness.

It's basic English. You don't want it to say that so you ignore the plain straight forward meaning of what it says.

I don't ignore the plain straight forward meaning of Jesus is our Advocate with the Father. I also don't ignore the plain straight forward meaning of what 1 John 1:8-10 says either.

Let me illustrate. If Jack told his wife to stop cooking food with onions in it. What does that mean to you? It means stop cooking food with onions in it. A one time action on behalf of Jack's wife. John then says if you do sin. This means, that if Jack's wife does cook food with onions in it (a one time action), and she knows it could get Jack sick and almost die, then she can go to God's grace and be forgiven of it. Why would she ignore in holding onto doing something evil? What you propose doesn't make sense and it allows for immorality and sin to fester like a cancer.

Who is saying anything about holding on to sin/practicing sin? John said that no one who is born of God practices sin (1 John 3:9) but you say they do.

Now, you are changing your tune. You are saying exactly what I just said. No sin should stand between a person and God. Not even one. For how many sins did it take for Adam and Eve to be separated from God?

I didn't change my tune. I have been saying this all along. I'll repeat - If Joe is a genuine believer then why would he refuse to admit this sin before the Lord? For Joe to continue stealing with no remorse, no repentance, no confession just bring it on is practicing sin and no one who is born of God practices sin (1 John 3:9).

Uh, yes. 1 John 2:9 actually proves my case and not yours. 1 John 2:9 is the sin of hate. Just one sin. Not many sins. Hating your brother is just one sin. One sin. Not many. If a brother hates another brother (one sin and not many), then they are in darknesss. Darkness here is in reference to how they are not saved. We know this because 1 John 3 says if any man hates his brother he is a murderer and we know no murderer has eternal life abiding within them.

Actually, this does prove my case:

1 John 2:9 - He who says (empty profession) he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. Yes, darkness here is in reference to how they are NOT SAVED. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifes​t: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Lost unbelievers/children of the devil are in darkness and not children of God. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light.. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - ..And what communion has light with darkness? Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. John continually makes a contrast between children of God and children of the devil, yet you are trying so hard to make this all fit NOSAS that you have missed the point.

 

[mailmandan]

Granted, while I do not believe in Works Salvationism, respect of persons has to do with how we behave before the Lord. For the context would suggest the exact opposite of what you are saying here.

It sounds like you believe in "type 2 works salvation" - maintaining our salvation by works.

"Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:9-11).

Does man worketh good in order to become saved or BECAUSE he is saved? Is this descriptive of a saved believer or an additional requirement to become saved? When Paul speaks here (and elsewhere) about works in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of/fruit of salvation and not the means of receiving it. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (Romans 2:10). Also notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (Romans 2:9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not.

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." (Acts 10:34-35).

Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. Up to now he had believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person because of his nationality. Fearing God and working righteousness is the result of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are always the result of/fruit of salvation and not the means of receiving it. Peter is giving a description of a believer/Christian and is not teaching salvation by works of righteousness, in contradiction to Paul.

 

[Jason0047]

Romans 3:10-12 applies to all of humanity prior to conversion. ALL of humanity has sinned and come short of the glory of God. I'm not saying that after conversion man continues to not seek after God, does not understand His ways and continues to practice sin.

Not in the way that I interpret it? It's pretty clear. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. IN CONTRAST TO if we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Belief in Christ is not alone in the sense that we believe, but we never repented and we say that we have no sin in contrast to confessing our sins. If we don't change our minds about our sinful position and confess our sins IN CONTRAST TO saying we have no sin (opposite of confessing our sins) then we won't believe the gospel. Believers confess their sins and acknowledge their complete dependence upon Christ to save them.

"If we walk in the light" is descriptive of believers IN CONTRAST TO "walking in darkness" which are those who merely SAY they have fellowship with Him, but lie and do not practice the truth. Does the latter describe children of God or children of the devil? 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God. *Children of God walk in the light and practice the truth/righteousness. *Children of the devil walk in darkness and do not practice the truth/righteousness.

I don't ignore the plain straight forward meaning of Jesus is our Advocate with the Father. I also don't ignore the plain straight forward meaning of what 1 John 1:8-10 says either.

Who is saying anything about holding on to sin/practicing sin? John said that no one who is born of God practices sin (1 John 3:9) but you say they do.

I didn't change my tune. I have been saying this all along. I'll repeat - If Joe is a genuine believer then why would he refuse to admit this sin before the Lord? For Joe to continue stealing with no remorse, no repentance, no confession just bring it on is practicing sin and no one who is born of God practices sin (1 John 3:9).

Actually, this does prove my case:

1 John 2:9 - He who says (empty profession) he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness until now. Yes, darkness here is in reference to how they are NOT SAVED. 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifes​t: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. Lost unbelievers/children of the devil are in darkness and not children of God. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light.. 2 Corinthians 6:14 - ..And what communion has light with darkness? Ephesians 5:8 - For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love his brother abides in death. 15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. John continually makes a contrast between children of God and children of the devil, yet you are trying so hard to make this all fit NOSAS that you have missed the point.

Again, how many sins does it take for you to hate your brother? One or many? It only takes one sin to hate your brother. How many sins did it take for Adam and Eve to commit in order for mankind to fall into sin? It only took one sin for Adam and Eve to fall. How many murders does it take for a person to be a murderer? It only takes one murder (sin) to be a murderer. How many times do you have to steal before you are considered a thief? It only takes one time to steal for someone to tell you that you are thief. How many sins does it take before you need to confess? One or many sins? One sin. For why on Earth would God allow you to get away with even one sin? So no. You are wrong. God is Holy and just. You can keep twisting these verses above until the cows come home. It doesn't change what these passages say plainly. For Paul says be not deceived, the unrighteous shall not inherit the Kingdom of God. Paul also says they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. For you are arguing that God would allow a person to get away with one sin. This is wrong and you know it. God is good; He is not evil and He will not allow His people to do evil under any circumstances (Not even once). Yes, God is merciful. Yes, God is not willing that any should perish. But that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

As for Romans 3: If Paul is not talking about believers in Romans 3:23, (Which is based on the context of verse 11) then what was the point you were trying to make before?

 

[dcontroversal]

Jason,

Eph 5:3-4 gives a list of nominative case nouns all derived from present active participles!

these nouns do not speak of occasional stumbling into these sins; but rather ones whose character is defined by these sins.

this distinction is taken further in verses 5-7 which distinguish the child of God from the child of disobedience.

A person saved by faith will never be characterized by these sins; but may on occasion commit them as David did with Bathsheba and Uriah.

Brother, you could quote every verse and verb tense and even God himself (which he has) could testify to the validity of eternal security and sin in a true believer's life and he will argue based upon his salvation lite doctrine which has blinded him to the truth......he listens to NO ONE and the truth is rather simple....it takes being born again to understand the word....notice how he argued with your grammatically correct interpretation of scripture.

 

[Jason0047]

It sounds like you believe in "type 2 works salvation" - maintaining our salvation by works.

James says, if faith has not works it is dead. Works do not save in and of themselves, but they are the testimony that God lives within the believer and that one's faith is true. For God is the One who does the work in a believer and it is not ultimately you. For there is none good but God. So the good a believer does comes from God. So you can't lay any claim that I am maintaining works to keep my salvation because I believe it is not ultimately myself who does the works. I believe life (salvation) can only be found in the Son. For he that has the Son has life and he that does not have the Son does not have life (1 John 5:12). So if a person abides in the Son, then fruits will naturally flow thru their hearts and lives. For why do you think the elders cast down their crowns before Jesus? It's because Jesus was the one working in them.

Does man worketh good in order to become saved or BECAUSE he is saved? Is this descriptive of a saved believer or an additional requirement to become saved?

A believer does works out of debt and grace and not so as to be saved. They are changed and they will have the desire to want to do those things. They work because they are servants to the Lord. But they realize that if they refuse to do nothing for God, then they are refusing to let God do the good work thru them (Which is a natural result of abiding with the Lord and His will). Believers are bought and paid for with a price. They are not their own. A true faith will always result in good fruit. If not, it is a counterfeit faith. The believer realizing this, understands that there are things God wants them to do. Like study the Bible, pray, preach the gospel, help the poor, etc. If a believer decides to resist or fight against God in doing these things and just flat out refuse to do nothing for God, then they are working against God working in their life. Now, the source of their salvation is Christ (God) (1 John 5:12). It is not in the works. Their choice to yield to God working in them is merely a choice to be with God or not (Who is salvation). It's not Works Salvationism. Works Salvationism would be when you believe you have to do such and such tomorrow or you are not saved. Works Salvationism says... if I do this... then I am saved. A believer is saved right here and right now by God's grace. For how does a believer get right with God if they fail to do nothing for God for a whole two years (And they only just thought about themselves)? Do they get their heart right with God by doing a good work? No. They get their heart right with God thru confessing of their sins (1 John 1:9). Yes, 1 John 1:9 can be used confess multiple sins and even one sin. For if a child who believes in Jesus Christ came up to you and was troubled that they had committed one sin, what will you tell them? Don't worry about it? No. You tell them to confess that one sin. Hypothetically speaking, if you don't tell them to confess that one sin, then in reality, you are telling that child that sin is okay. For Jesus said if you make one of these little ones to stumble it is better that a noose be hung about your neck.

When Paul speaks here (and elsewhere) about works in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of/fruit of salvation and not the means of receiving it. Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (Romans 2:10). Also notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (Romans 2:9). What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not.

Peter prefaced his message with a frank admission. Up to now he had believed that God's favor was limited to the nation of Israel. Now he realized that God did not respect a man's person because of his nationality. Fearing God and working righteousness is the result of an already existing faith. We are not saved by works of righteousness (Titus 3:5), but works of righteousness in connection with salvation are always the result of/fruit of salvation and not the means of receiving it. Peter is giving a description of a believer/Christian and is not teaching salvation by works of righteousness, in contradiction to Paul.

I have argued against Works Salvationists many times. I have mentioned the above many times that we are not saved by works and explained how it is God working in you on this forum and even in this thread. So you are seeing something that is not there.

 

[Jason0047]

Brother, you could quote every verse and verb tense and even God himself (which he has) could testify to the validity of eternal security and sin in a true believer's life and he will argue based upon his salvation lite doctrine which has blinded him to the truth......he listens to NO ONE and the truth is rather simple....it takes being born again to understand the word....notice how he argued with your grammatically correct interpretation of scripture.

You mean sort of like how I keep quoting 1 John 1:9 and ask people constantly here to explain it and many here (Not all) will refuse in doing so? Hmmm.... I wonder why they can't do a simple thing like explain a simple verse? I will tell you why. It is because they can't explain it. They honestly don't know how. They would rather that verse was ripped out of their Bibles. It is an inconvenience to what they believe. Some try to jump over it using some man made Theological gymnsastics, but we both know that such attempts are futile. They will have to face God and give an answer to Him for denying what 1 John 1:9 plainly says to the believer. For can their interpretation be illustrated in real life in additon to the testimony of the rest of Scripture? No. And therein lies the problem.

 

[MarcR]

Brother, you could quote every verse and verb tense and even God himself (which he has) could testify to the validity of eternal security and sin in a true believer's life and he will argue based upon his salvation lite doctrine which has blinded him to the truth......he listens to NO ONE and the truth is rather simple....it takes being born again to understand the word....notice how he argued with your grammatically correct interpretation of scripture.

My responses to Jason are less for Jason than for those who might be led astray by him. When He makes what looks like a strong argument; I feel that someone should show the correct reading of the relevant Scripture.

 

[kennethcadwell]

You mean sort of like how I keep quoting 1 John 1:9 and ask people constantly here to explain it and many here (Not all) will refuse in doing so? Hmmm.... I wonder why they can't do a simple thing like explain a simple verse? I will tell you why. It is because they can't explain it. They honestly don't know how. They would rather that verse was ripped out of their Bibles. It is an inconvenience to what they believe. Some try to jump over it using some man made Theological gymnsastics, but we both know that such attempts are futile. They will have to face God and give an answer to Him for denying what 1 John 1:9 plainly says to the believer. For can their interpretation be illustrated in real life in additon to the testimony of the rest of Scripture? No. And therein lies the problem.

We are to confess our future sins to be forgiven of them and receive the Lords remission.
However nowhere in the bible does it say we have to pinpoint and out right label/name every single sin we do to receive that remission. The Lord gives us the standard in the Lord's prayer, and even David did not name his sins and prayed to even be forgiven of faults he did that he did not even recognize has sin. If you recite the Lord's prayer everyday with love and sincere heart then your sins are covered.
If a person commits a sin that happens to happen in the last minutes of their life to where they died and did not have a chance to repent, then they will not lose/forfeit their salvation if they walked properly in the faith before hand.
The Lord knows our heart and people do things in the heat of the moment, and He says He will have mercy on who He will have mercy on. If you take and say that last minute sin will cost a person their salvation then you are trying to take out of the hands of the Lord what He can do.
Remember the bible says there is rewards for believers, some of honor and some for dishonor, and these people who made this last minute sin would receive the lesser of the rewards. A person who is in Christ will not continue to live a lifestyle everyday in habitual sin, but we do mess up and back slide from time to time. That is the difference of the willful sinner the bible speaks of that will not inherit eternal life, not one who commits a willful sin here or there, but one who continues constantly everyday to commit willful/deliberate sins....