Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)

peacefulbeliever · Mar 25, 2015

My mother has been dead 40 some years and she is still my mother. My brother has been dead for some time but he is still my brother . . . what changes that relationship? If DNA could not corrupt - their DNA would match mine making us family even though they are dead.

So if/when I die - I am no longer in the household of God, no longer His child? He will not know me to redeem me - to raise me? I think that is not correct.

Here are the other questions:

What makes you think that I just live my life helly nelly and have no remorse if I mess up?

Do you actually understand what it is to be born again of God? You BELONG to God . . . Why is it that you want to sit around and place condemnation on your brothers and sisters when God doesn't even lay anything to our charge [Rom. 8:33] Christ doesn't even condemn us but makes intercession for us [Rom. 8:34]?

dcontroversal · Mar 25, 2015

SoulWeaver said:

Amen and I agree....one contradiction after another based upon his theology..........God Knows all things and the word is clear....once a person is sealed with the Holy Spirit they are sealed unto the day of redemption....no ifs ands or buts about it.....to say that God yanks his spirit from one who is sealed by faith and salvation not only contradicts the quoted statement, but also contradicts the ability of a believer to cause God's SPIRIT to grieve because of sin........page 14 also shows a complete contradiction of his own theology and doctrine that he teaches........

Notice.....

Originally Posted by Jason0047 Well, not to drag you into it personally (Because I don't know your life), but for clarity on this point, a believer cannot abide in unrepentant sin and think they are saved. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is not a one time event but a continued relationship and walk with the Lord.

This quote by you contradicts your above statement....

Jason0047 said:

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

SoulWeaver said:

That's a pretty ambigous statement (of which I have no idea of what you are trying to get at). We know God desires to abide with man. But sin separated man from God. The Bible teaches we can have a restored fellowship with God by repenting of our sins and accepting Jesus Christ. We receive the Holy Spirit and we abide with God. We have fellowship and love between one another. But if you are siding with others here who are thinking that a believer can hold onto their sin (By refusing to confess of it to the Lord), and still have a walk with God is to set up a contradiction. For God is Holy and righteous and cannot abide with someone who is doing evil against Him. God is good; He is not evil.

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

dcontroversal said:

Please stop throwing stones at me. I have already explained this to you. There is no contradiction. Please go back and re-read what I had written very slowly.

DC said:

Welll, Saul once had the Spirit of God and the Lord departed from him.

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

No, a person cannot play ball with dead people or have dinners with them or have a two way conversation with them, or go out to the movies with them. They are not a part of your life like when they were alive. It's why the father in the Parable of the Prodigal Son had said his son was dead to him. For his son was no longer in his life anymore. It's as if he was dead. This of course is speaking in spiritual terms. For when did Jesus parables not speak in spiritual terms?

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

peacefulbeliever said:

Also, as for your question: First, I did not come right out and accuse you personally of doing any evil. I was merely curious as to what you believe and asked questions. I also stated what I believe based on the Bible. A belief about those who believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine are condemned because of what the Bible says. Second, if you don't believe in a sin and still be saved doctrine, then you should not be offended. But if you do take what I said in general to heart (personally), then it is in what God's Word says and not in what I have said. For I am merely relaying what the Scriptures say. I have not set out to attack you or anyone else personally.

SoulWeaver · Mar 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

I am getting at this - why would God, with all His foreknowledge, seal with His Spirit a person who will ultimately choose evil and refuse to repent? Because first of all repentance is locked together with salvation and rebirth, and it is a gift of God. Repenting and believing God (saving faith) are tied in together in many verses. ---"Repent, and believe the Gospel."

A person receives a new heart when they are born again/saved/sealed with the Spirit. This is the repentant heart, not of stone but of flesh, as promised in the OT. God is not as much about what you do than about who you are in Him (doings just fruition from being who you are: this is why we have to become new creatures in Him else there's no way to fix our doings). There are many sins a person might forget to confess or even be unaware at the moment, unless the Spirit brings them to their attention. You have surely experienced this yourself. You make a mistake, God might not bring this up immediately, but when He does so later, or for something you did even back when you were unbeliever, you regret it. Conviction, chastizement and repentance are all GIFT from God. God knows your heart and as you have received this new heart... if He brought something up to you and rebuked you, He knows you would be sorry because you're not the old man with the cruel stony heart anymore. So it's not like you're going to go to hell if you forgot to officially confess and notarize the confession of some mistake you made. That legalistic view is what people are debating about, because your writing gives strong impression of such understanding. And no I dont see anyone here is defending or permitting a callous lifestyle.

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

SoulWeaver said:

God has to honor His Word. If a person calls, repents and turns to the Lord, then He must forgive them because God keeps His promises to His Word. But God is not in the business of forcing salvation on anyone, either, though. So the Promise of wanting to be forgiven and to be with God depends on the individual. For if that was not the case, then God would just force everyone to believe and be up in Heaven.

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation, but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:

Saul (1 Samuel 16:14) (1 Samuel 31:4)

Demas (2 Timothy 4:10)

The Prodigal Son (Luke 15:11-32)

Judas Iscariot (Psalm 41:9) (Luke 6:16) (Acts 1:25)

Simon the Sorcerer (Acts 8:13) (Acts 8:18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23)

Hymenaeus and Philetus (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

Unnamed Christians destroyed by false teaching (2 Timothy 2:17, 18)

Many Unnamed Disciples (John 6:66)

Some Younger Christian Widows (1 Timothy 5:14, 15)

Some Christians Eager For Money (1 Timothy 6:8, 9, 10)

Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-11)

Balaam (Numbers chapters 22, 23, 24) (Numbers 31:8) (Joshua 13:22) (Jude 1:11)

And here is a list of potential fallen believers:

The Servant Who is Not Looking For Him (Luke 12:45, 46)

Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)

The Unforgiving in Heart (Matthew 6:14, 15)

Luke Warm Unrepentant Believer (Revelation 3:14-22)

Fruitless Christians (John 15:1-10) (Matthew 25:14-30)

Widows That Live in Pleasure (1 Timothy 5:5, 6)

Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)

Believers Whose Seed Was Choked by Thorns (Matthew 13:22)

Gentile Believer Who Did Not Have on a Wedding Garment (Matthew 22:1-14) (Revelation 19:7, 8)

The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
(James 5:19, 20)

For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

For if God were to force salvation upon a person (after they accept Him), then it would no longer be "true love." For "true love" is always based on two parties agreeing to love one another. God doesn't just save those He knows will just forever be good to Him (i.e. the Elect). God also has to initially save those who will even in time turn against Him (even if they later fall away from salvation) because God has to keep true to His Word. For if a person repents and believes God for salvation, God has to honor that. But God does not force His love on people, though. Otherwise it would not be "true love."

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Update:

Sorry, I currently do not believe now that Simon the Sorcerer was ever saved. I believe he was putting on a show that he was saved because he was a man of sorceries and tricks. So please do not consider him as a part of the list above.

Thank you.

dcontroversal · Mar 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Not throwing stones...You contradicted yourself and when confronted you attempted to add to what you had said and or change what you had said.......Below is your original statements....

Notice.....

Originally Posted by Jason0047 Well, not to drag you into it personally (Because I don't know your life), but for clarity on this point, a believer cannot abide in unrepentant sin and think they are saved. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. This is not a one time event but a continued relationship and walk with the Lord.

Jason0047 said:

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

dcontroversal said:

No, you are again twisting around what I have said out of context. I said Solomon and Samson are examples in the Bible of how NOT to live. They are not examples for us to point to so as to think we can live that way, too. I never said that, nor implied such a thing. You are forcing that false belief upon me (of which I reject). Samson and Solomon were not looking at other believers who lived like they did thinking they can get away with sin. God knew their heart and knew that while they did live sinful lives, they turned at the last moment at the end and made things right with the Lord. This is not a support of the Antinomian or Classic OSAS type belief. It runs contrary to it because the Antinomian believer will just continue to live like an evil sinful version of Solomon or a Samson until they die. For they will not admit in what they have done is wrong. For they believe all future sin is paid for and that nothing can remove them from Christ because they are sealed by the Spirit. Sin is only physical death and not spiritual death to the Antinomian believer. Hence, why holiness is rarely ever stressed as being a requirement in being a true believer.

Anyways, on your other point on how Samson and Solomon were not saved: Well, ...

As for Samson:

Samson was saved for two reasons. One, God granted His request and gave Samson the strength to take down the two pillars. Why would God answer the prayer of an evil unsaved man and make it look like He was in favor with Him by giving Him the strength by the Spirit? Two, why is Samson mentioned in Hebrews 11 among the heroes of faith if He was unsaved? If you want to discuss this point more, go here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/97572-samson-did-not-commit-suicide.html

As for Solomon:

2 Samuel 7:12-16 tells us God would take away his mercy from Saul but he would not take away it away from Solomon. For God says that He will be a father to Solomon and he will be like his son, if he commits iniquity he will be chastened by the Lord with a rod of iron. We know this passaged is clearly speaking about Solomon because verse 13 describes him as one who will build a house in his name (i.e. the Temple). It is also evident that Solomon was the author of Ecclesiastes, too.

If you want to discuss this more, you can do so here (if you are interested):

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/105157-solomon-saved.html

kennethcadwell · Mar 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

The bible when it is referring to sin is referring those who continuously and deliberately go on sinning all the time.
Not to those who walk accordingly to the faith and then may mess up (back slide) from time to time, as the scriptures that even speaks of falling away refers to the person returning to a life of willful sinning. Not you have salvation for the next five days, then you sin and have no salvation today, you repent the next day and have salvation again.....That is completely against the teachings of scriptures, as you do not lose/forfeit salvation each time you back slide and sin. It is if you continue in that sinful lifestyle to where it controls you again. A person who may have been walking properly for many years, but then in the heat of the moment or situation sin and then die immediately after will not lose their salvation. If you do not believe the Lord will have mercy on this person then you completely misunderstand God's love.......

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

I am not suggesting God immediately removes His Spirit from a believer the very second they instantly sin. God will give a believer time to confess or repent of their sin by convicting them of their sin in order for them to confess and repent.

As for backsliding: Well, James 5:19-20 does talk about a believer helping another believer to come back to the faith from them having erred from truth and saving their soul from death, etc. This means that the backslidden believer in James 5:19-20 who was brought back went from a saved state, to an unsaved state, and then back again to being saved.

kennethcadwell · Mar 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

But once again I am not referring to a person who has time to confess, because they die immediately after the sin.
If that person lived a proper life in the faith up tell that point I do not believe they will lose salvation by what the bible says, as it says He will have mercy on some. The scriptures make it clear not all believers that receive salvation will all live the same way in the flesh, as we are each given our own portion of faith.
You maybe a person who helps out others every single day, and another person may help others every once in awhile. That does not mean you get salvation and they don't as we each hold different positions.

As for James 5:19-20 that refers to a person who falls away from the faith, as I only consider it a backslide if the person sins and then repents/confesses of it and returns to living right by the faith. If that person in James never comes back to the Lord then it is more than a backslide, and a complete return to a sinful lifestyle in which the bible shows for this will not receive eternal life.

Jason0047 · Mar 25, 2015

kennethcadwell said:

I am sorry. I believe Scripture teaches a believer is clearly not saved if they die while refusing to to repent of a sin (and or in not getting a chance in doing so). For what if the believer just killed somebody you loved? Are they saved? What if the believer just wrongfully slept around with a good friend you know? I don't think God will be too happy with them (If you ask me). So no. There is no excuse for sin. Again, you are thinking in terms of a scenario that may or may not exist for the true believer. Trust God and believe He is a good and faithful Judge whereby He knows who are His sheep and those who are not.

As for James 5:19-20: The unbeliever was not saved when he had backslidden because it says he had erred from the Truth. Jesus is the way, the Truth, and the life. The backslidden believer's sins were also were covered, too (When this other believer had helped them to come back to the faith). It says they saved a soul from death.

dcontroversal · Mar 25, 2015

Jason0047 said:

You are mistaken Jason.....and you have contradicted yourself no less than three times...lets recap...

Originally Posted by Jason0047 a believer cannot abide in unrepentant sin and think they are saved.

Jason0047 said:

Jason0047 · Mar 26, 2015

dcontroversal said:

You said Samson committed suicide. In my book known as the Bible that would mean he would be lost if that was the case. So no. I am merely going off the information you have given me.

As for the contradiction concerning what I said before. Again, no. You would still be wrong. For you still are misunderstanding me and taking out of context of what I had said; And I don't think me explaining it to you a 101 different more ways is going to help you, either. For I do not honestly think you are after the truth of what I actually said but you are more interested in throwing mud at me.

So have a nice night, dear sir; And may God bless you.

mailmandan · Mar 26, 2015

Jason0047 said:

Saul is problematic because the Holy Spirit was given to accomplish a purpose and withdrawn in the Old Testament. Men were not permanently indwelt by the Holy Sprit as believers are under the New Covenant (Ephesians 1:13-14; 4:30).

The wanderer is either a professing Christian, whose faith is not genuine, or a sinning Christian, who needs to be restored. For the former, the death spoken of in vs. 20 is the "second death" (Revelation 21:8); for the latter, it is "physical death" (1 Corinthians 11:29-32; 1 Corinthians 5:5; 1 John 5:16).

We don't lose our salvation every time we mess up and our wives don't divorce us every time we mess up.

We confess our sin in a continued relationship and walk with the Lord. It's not a sin/lose salvation; confess/regain salvation continued merry go round.

Not in the sense of sin/lose salvation; confess/regain salvation continued merry go round. 1 John 1:9 is not a formula to regain our salvation every time we commit a sin in light of 1 John 1:8,10. If we forget a sin, we are toast! If we confess our sins in CONTRAST to if we say we have no sin or have not sinned, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

gb9 · Mar 26, 2015

remember, God is our heavenly FATHER. now many of us did not have a good dad. but God is good and faithful. a good father. a good father will not kick you out of the house if you miss curfew, leave dirty dishes on the couch, forget to take out the garbage, etc.. now you will be chastised for messing up ( as the book of Hebrews says) but not kicked out. God is not a harsh judge, as folks like Jason implies.

Often misunderstood part of the Bible (1 John 1:8-19)

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